Players on Whom Public Opinion Has Changed Drastically Since Retirement...

[10YearsHaveGone]

I’d say Phil Esposito

He was the first over the top elite scoring champion in the NHL

HE’s rated between 20-30 greatest all time now

Phil Esposito's was way ahead of my time, but on paper he has one of the best offensive peaks of all time. Comparable to Howe's and Jagr's. I get that he was second fiddle to Orr. Its that the only reason he isn't ranked higher?

This is the top offensive seasons in the league up to the point Esposito's prime ended:

Esposito had 6 of the top 10 all time. This is of course right before the offensive explosion of the 80's rewrote everything.

To those in the know, how was Esposito ranked at this period of time?

 

[Gerulaitis]

I think Selanne had a better year in 1993. Hull was easily the world's best winger prior to that. Mogilny was the 2nd best winger in the NHL in 1993. He was a 2nd team all-star in 1996 as well, but miles behind Jagr. Kariya and Selanne would have been better wingers than him for sure in 1996. He had two great seasons and a lot of seasons that left tons to be desired. I remember how great he was when he certainly tried to be. But it wasn't often enough.



He would have been the best player all-time in 1960 for sure. And rightly so. Howe was still playing, and out of the remaining "Big 4" only Orr was born at that time, and he was 12. To be honest, even to this day it is hard to have Richard out of the top 10. I have Beliveau ahead of him and Hull too. You could say, Harvey, Jagr, Crosby. But honestly, who else with great certainty? To this day he is 8th all-time in playoff goals. And unless Ovechkin, Crosby or Malkin have a big postseason he's going to hang onto that place. And really, those are the three names that have a chance to catch the 82 goals. Richard did this in a low scoring era with two playoff rounds. Not to mention, he has 14 either 1st or 2nd all-star selections. Gordie Howe has 21. Bourque has 19. Gretzky has 15. Richard has 14. I don't think anyone else is close. Even Ovechkin who you figure would have as many only has 11. So I mean, 14 straight years and this is what happened. Only his injury-plagued rookie year and his final three seasons does he not do this. Yeah, that's epic. Bobby Hull as well has 12. Beliveau 10. The story checks out - even in 2025 - with Richard being an all-time great. His playoff resume is probably only better than perhaps Gretzky.

I must disagree:
Mogilny was a more mature and complete player than Selanne in 92-93.
He netted 76 in 77 games. I think Selanne hasn't missed a single game in the regular season.

In the 1993 post-season Mogilny scored 7 goals in 7 games and added 3 assists. Wow, just wow

 

[The Panther]

I can see future fans having no clue that he wasn't on Roy or Hasek's level at his peak.

He wasn't?

I mean, I'd rank Hasek higher, a bit.

 

[GMR]

He wasn't?

I mean, I'd rank Hasek higher, a bit.

Roy had more memorable playoff runs and Hasek had the absurd peak seasons in the mid to late 90s. Brodeur had the longevity but at his best I’m ranking him in a class below those two.

I never saw Plante/Sawchuk so it’s harder for me to compare them to Brodeur.

 

[overpass]

If this forum existed in 1980, I don't think Esposito would be considered a top 10 player of all time.

Going through contemporary reports, he's clearly behind Orr and Hull. And Howe and Beliveau and Richard and Harvey if you extend back a bit.

This forum is harsher on him than contemporary reports are. But he's also not as loved as stats would indicate.

A lot of hockey writers and fans around 1980 were trashing the quality of the NHL. There were still some pretty subpar players and teams that wouldn't have sniffed the pre-expansion league. And the arrival of the great Soviet teams and players had cast a shadow over even the superstars of the NHL. Even Gretzky had trouble getting respect as an all-timer in that environment.

I would agree that Esposito had not reached the great Original Six players in the public imagination. Everyone knew he ranked below Orr. There just wasn't a path for the second best player on a team that won only two Cups in a weak era to become a hockey legend of the first rank.

 

[MadArcand]

He wasn't?

I mean, I'd rank Hasek higher, a bit.

He's been closer to Belfour than Hasek & Roy

 

[quietbruinfan]

We have an interesting and good topic here. The OP is sort of asking for a stock up stock down list. Here goes mine.

Down: Cheevers. He is a nice guy and a very good goalie, but not a HHOFER. I have seen lots of highlights of the first half of his career and saw the second half. Watching highlights you will notice that Johnston got the greater share of big games......Has a somewhat deserved reputation as clutch but could be erratic.

Down/the same Housely. He was a defensive liability when he played and somehow got in the hall on offensive skill. He was also less effective as his career progressed and the league became more defensively oriented.

UP: Gartner. he played on several teams, many with different styles, and was absurdly consistent on all of them. He was unfairly discriminated against and traded around because he was a. not a physical player despite having good size and b. is a born again Christian....See A.

I liked Brodeur more than most because he had the most regular/standard technique. Roy had higher peaks but some slight dips/difficulties as well. I am not as much a Hasek supporter as most. He was a very talented and a technically innovative goalie, but presented mild problems off the ice. He also gets too much of a pass for playing on mediocre Sabre teams.

 

[The Panther]

Down: Cheevers. He is a nice guy and a very good goalie, but not a HHOFER. I have seen lots of highlights of the first half of his career and saw the second half. Watching highlights you will notice that Johnston got the greater share of big games......Has a somewhat deserved reputation as clutch but could be erratic.

I agree, but this seems to be the way for most of the 1970s' guys. Their reputations seem to be somewhat in the hockey toilet nowadays.

Down/the same Housely. He was a defensive liability when he played and somehow got in the hall on offensive skill. He was also less effective as his career progressed and the league became more defensively oriented.

I'm not a Housley fan, but I will defend him in the sense that I think he could be a fine two-way player. (I wouldn't say this about every offensive Dman.) In 1998-99, Housley played for a very low-powered Flames' team that was a net negative in goals, yet he scored 54 points and went +14. Even got Norris votes from 7 writers....

I liked Brodeur more than most because he had the most regular/standard technique. Roy had higher peaks but some slight dips/difficulties as well. I am not as much a Hasek supporter as most. He was a very talented and a technically innovative goalie, but presented mild problems off the ice. He also gets too much of a pass for playing on mediocre Sabre teams.

I think I have to go with Hasek over Brodeur, but between Brodeur and Roy, I would call it even. Roy has the sharper peak seasons, but he also has highs and lows, and when he wasn't on the Canadiens his statistical results are just 'good', not amazing. Brodeur gave what I like most in goalies --- a long, consistent prime of consistency.

 

[MadLuke]

I feel Roy lows or gap with vs after Montreal career could be overstated a bit here.

Older Avalanche Roy has a good argument to have had the best nhl goaltender career from 1996 to 2003, 2cup, 2 Smythe worthy run with an actual Smythe.

.917 in the regular season during that window was pretty much second to only Hasek (the only guy but very solid and winning argument to have had a better goaltender career during that window with the cup, the final, the gold medal, the harts):

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Hasek..: .926
Roy....: .917
Hackett: .913
Burke..: .913
Brodeur: .912

Most playoff win by a mile and his .922 in the playoff is in that too close to call top tier of that era:
Hasek..: .929
Kolzig.: .927
Belfour: .925
Roy....: .922
Brodeur: .919
Joseph.: .918

Making team Canada in 1998 felt natural, would he have took the job without special condition in 2002 we would have had no goaltender controversy instead of the Cujo->Brodeur situation...

His competition got better, but not playing for MTL did not expose him or anything and he was more than good he was probably the second best goaltender in the nhl having about the best results in the nhl, without a freak like Hasek establishing himself Colorado Roy would still have been for the 96-03 been considered the best in the business and the one you pick for a playoff run, not by a gap (when he faced Belfour or Brodeur in a playoff series felt a bit like wash, but still him).

Roy never had a negative GSAA season and after his first 2 season or a lockout year, was always 13 or above.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Phil Esposito's was way ahead of my time, but on paper he has one of the best offensive peaks of all time. Comparable to Howe's and Jagr's. I get that he was second fiddle to Orr. Its that the only reason he isn't ranked higher?

This is the top offensive seasons in the league up to the point Esposito's prime ended:

View attachment 964107

Esposito had 6 of the top 10 all time. This is of course right before the offensive explosion of the 80's rewrote everything.

To those in the know, how was Esposito ranked at this period of time?

Ive made the point before that the worst thing to happen to Esposito's reputation wasn't Orr, it was Gretzky.

Esposito went out and shattered season records for goals and points by 30% and set monster records for a timeframe (first to score 1000 pts in a 10 year span, etc).

What hurt him was how quickly his records were erased. A few years after he's done Gretzky comes along and shatters them all again. He didnt get the benefit of his records standing for a few decades so that people could wax poetic about them, build up the legend of them, etc. He wasn't the gold standard long enough to become part of lore, things like 76 goals and 152 points didnt get enough time as the bar the way Howe's and Gretzky's records did. That's how his historical place has dropped so much IMO

 

[jigglysquishy]

If you look at contemporary opinion, Esposito is clearly behind Howe, Beliveau, and Hull. Just looking at careers of forwards who played 1960-1980. The numbers are sexy (and got obliterated by Gretzky, yes), but to those watching in the moment, Esposito was rarely thought of in the light of the aforementioned three forwards.

Numbers are numbers and are what stand out now. But for those actually watching, Esposito wasn't all that. Now, I think he was looked at more favourably than Mikita in peer comparison, but let's not mistake stats with hockey.

I do think this forum is too harsh on Esposito, but I wholly reject the idea that contemporary reports view him as a proto-Gretzky. He's always viewed behind Orr, and is viewed as inferior to the three big forwards who preceded him.

 

[WarriorofTime]

From the Hawks, Patrick Kane

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Crosby No. 1 for sixth straight year on TSN's Top 50 list - TSN.ca

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Very low on those lists for a player in his prime and retroactive lists would bump him up in each of those lists.

2010: 15
2011: 24
2012: 38
2013: 9
2014: 10
2015: 13

 

[MadLuke]

what make the conversation is a grasp of where the public opinion is right now (how much there is one past 1980s player to start with....)

here:

10 Best Hockey Players of All Time | Britannica

This Encyclopedia Britannica sports list explores the 10 best ice hockey players of all time.

www.britannica.com

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2771078-ranking-the-top-10-nhl-hockey-players-of-all-time

Ranking the NHL's 100 Greatest Players: Nos. 20-1

Throughout the month of September, James Bisson and a cast of editors from theScore will share their rankings of the greatest players, teams, and moments in the 100-year history of the National Hockey League. Our final list focuses on the greatest players (Note: "All-Star" refers to...

www.thescore.com

The Best NHL Players of All-Time, by Decade - The Hockey Writers Hockey History Latest News, Analysis & More

A new spin on the "Best Players" conversation. Decade by decade, we examine which players ruled supreme.

thehockeywriters.com

Does not match the public ?

Maybe this is a good one to look at

The Best NHL Players of All Time

Who are the all time top hockey players in the NHL that have dazzled fans and dominated the ice? The NHL has seen its fair share of incredible talent, with players whose skills, dedication, and achievements have cemented their places in hockey history. These legends have left a lasting impact on...

www.ranker.com

Open to public over 10,000 votes for the big names

Esposito is at number 20, really good, but below Steve Yzerman, Forsberg, Brett Hull, Coffey, etc...

No ridiculous name above him and considering the recency bias, among pre 1980 players he is only below Orr, Howe, Lafleur, above Richard-Beliveau and co. Above all the soviet of his era, above Bruins Bourque, Clarke,

i.e. seem really high for a 70s star all thing considered, when you look where Bobby Hull and Beliveau end up, #20 for a non recent player is really high.

 

[Matsun]

If you look at contemporary opinion, Esposito is clearly behind Howe, Beliveau, and Hull. Just looking at careers of forwards who played 1960-1980. The numbers are sexy (and got obliterated by Gretzky, yes), but to those watching in the moment, Esposito was rarely thought of in the light of the aforementioned three forwards.

Numbers are numbers and are what stand out now. But for those actually watching, Esposito wasn't all that. Now, I think he was looked at more favourably than Mikita in peer comparison, but let's not mistake stats with hockey.

I do think this forum is too harsh on Esposito, but I wholly reject the idea that contemporary reports view him as a proto-Gretzky. He's always viewed behind Orr, and is viewed as inferior to the three big forwards who preceded him.

I sometimes think that fans and pundits around then put more stock into entertainment value and flashiness than efficiency which is actually great because hockey is entertainment first. I do think it could explain some things like Mikita barely getting any votes for best player of the 60s despite 4 Art Ross trophies and leading the decade in points. If Crosby/Ovechkin happened back then I feel that Ovechkin would be rated above Crosby.

It doesn't make sense to me to give Orr all the credit for Esposito having one of the greatest season ever at the time in 1969.

1968-69 until Dec 26	GP	G	A	P	PPG	PACE	G	A	P
B.Hull	31	22	26	48	1,55	76	54	64	118
Howe	32	16	29	45	1,41	76	38	69	107
Esposito	32	22	19	41	1,28	76	52	45	97
Pappin	32	19	21	40	1,25	76	45	50	95
Mikita	30	13	27	40	1,33	76	33	68	101
Berenson	33	18	19	37	1,12	76	41	44	85
Ullman	32	16	20	36	1,13	76	38	48	86
Beliveau	31	14	22	36	1,16	76	34	54	88
Cullen	33	10	25	35	1,06	76	23	58	81
D.Hull	32	17	17	34	1,06	76	40	40	81
In 21st place
Orr	32	10	19	29	0,91	76	24	45	69

1968-69 after Dec 26	GP	G	A	P	PPG	PACE	G	A	P
Esposito	42	27	58	85	2,02	76	49	105	154
Hodge	43	36	28	64	1,49	76	64	49	113
B.Hull	43	36	23	59	1,37	76	64	41	104
Howe	44	28	30	58	1,32	76	48	52	100
Counoyer	45	27	31	58	1,29	76	46	52	98
Mikita	44	17	40	57	1,30	76	29	69	98
Ratelle	42	21	32	53	1,26	76	38	58	96
Mahovlich	44	33	18	51	1,16	76	57	31	88
Gilbert	41	17	31	48	1,17	76	32	57	89
Delvecchio	44	11	39	50	1,14	76	19	67	86
In 32nd place
Orr	35	11	24	35	1,00	76	24	52	76

This is just Esposito hitting a unseen level of production in the second half of the season while Orrs production did not skyrocket until the next season. I can understand people at the time being more impressed by other players though. Right now Kucherov is a cerebral player that just always seem to find assists from nowhere. While it is incredibly impressive he is not leaving the same overwhelming impression as MacKinnon and McDavid do with their incredible flashy play.

Esposito had the misfortune of having a player in the league that was A) Clearly better, B) Way flashier, and C) On the same team.

 

[Crosby2010]

If you look at contemporary opinion, Esposito is clearly behind Howe, Beliveau, and Hull. Just looking at careers of forwards who played 1960-1980. The numbers are sexy (and got obliterated by Gretzky, yes), but to those watching in the moment, Esposito was rarely thought of in the light of the aforementioned three forwards.

Numbers are numbers and are what stand out now. But for those actually watching, Esposito wasn't all that. Now, I think he was looked at more favourably than Mikita in peer comparison, but let's not mistake stats with hockey.

I do think this forum is too harsh on Esposito, but I wholly reject the idea that contemporary reports view him as a proto-Gretzky. He's always viewed behind Orr, and is viewed as inferior to the three big forwards who preceded him.

Be that as it may, those are three pretty darn fine hockey players in Howe, Beliveau and Hull. And obviously Gretzky afterwards. But those are high bars aren't they? I've always thought that the 1972 Summit Series proves that Esposito could lead a team on his own. Even an older Esposito in 1979 did pretty good leading the Rangers to the Cup final. Esposito did what he did effectively, almost as good as anyone ever did. But it wasn't flashy, and I think either today or back in the day that hurt him with the critics. He didn't skate like the wind, he was pretty big but not physical, he didn't have a howitzer of a shot. But what Esposito had was hockey sense, lots of it. Being in the right place at the right time, having sweet hands, a gifted scoring touch and worked the slot better than anyone to this day. None of that will hit the highlight reel quite like the others, but does it have to?

 

[The Panther]

Ive made the point before that the worst thing to happen to Esposito's reputation wasn't Orr, it was Gretzky.

Esposito went out and shattered season records for goals and points by 30% and set monster records for a timeframe (first to score 1000 pts in a 10 year span, etc).

What hurt him was how quickly his records were erased. A few years after he's done Gretzky comes along and shatters them all again.

Maybe so, but the 1971 points record of 152 points didn't last only "a few years", it lasted for 10 years -- a full decade.

In fact, besides Espo and Orr, for nine years after Espo's 152-point season, nobody reached more than 137 points, and it took nine years for two players (Dionne and Gretzky) to reach that.

Then, from 1974-75 through 1979-80 (six seasons), the #1 highest point total by any player was... Bobby Orr in 1975. So I do think Orr took some shine off Espo in this sense.

If Gretzky hadn't existed (and all else stayed the same), Mario Lemieux would have gotten pretty close to Espo's record in just his second season (141 points), and broken it in his fourth season (168 points). By then, however, we're 17 years after Espo's big one, so I guess this would have allowed his record to attain a little more 'shine'. But I still think Orr's presence took a lot of the glow off Espo.

 

[The Panther]

I feel Roy lows or gap with vs after Montreal career could be overstated a bit here.

Older Avalanche Roy has a good argument to have had the best nhl goaltender career from 1996 to 2003, 2cup, 2 Smythe worthy run with an actual Smythe.

.917 in the regular season during that window was pretty much second to only Hasek (the only guy but very solid and winning argument to have had a better goaltender career during that window with the cup, the final, the gold medal, the harts):

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Hasek..: .926
Roy....: .917
Hackett: .913
Burke..: .913
Brodeur: .912

Most playoff win by a mile and his .922 in the playoff is in that too close to call top tier of that era:
Hasek..: .929
Kolzig.: .927
Belfour: .925
Roy....: .922
Brodeur: .919
Joseph.: .918

Making team Canada in 1998 felt natural, would he have took the job without special condition in 2002 we would have had no goaltender controversy instead of the Cujo->Brodeur situation...

His competition got better, but not playing for MTL did not expose him or anything and he was more than good he was probably the second best goaltender in the nhl having about the best results in the nhl, without a freak like Hasek establishing himself Colorado Roy would still have been for the 96-03 been considered the best in the business and the one you pick for a playoff run, not by a gap (when he faced Belfour or Brodeur in a playoff series felt a bit like wash, but still him).

Roy never had a negative GSAA season and after his first 2 season or a lockout year, was always 13 or above.

I am obviously not saying Roy was a bum after the early-90s — to be clear, he was one of the best goalies in the League up until he retired —but he was never as strong again as with Montreal from ages 22 to 26/27. Really, not even close.

1987-88 to 1991-92 (RS, and min. 110 games played):
.909 Roy
.899 Belfour
.898 Essensa

Patrick was clearly, I think, the #1 goalie in the NHL during these five seasons (although he didn't win a single Cup).

Now, you'll notice he didn't have such a great season in 1992-93 (4th best save%, 7th-most GSAA). Overnight, he went from #1 League dominant goalie for the past five years to just very good goalie (stopping shots at the same rate as past-prime Fuhr and Bob Essensa). Why is that? Had Roy eaten too much poutine in the summer of 1992? No, my guess is it happened because Montreal shifted from the defence-as-first-and-only-priority coaches that Patrick had enjoyed, to date, throughout his career to a coach who wanted a balanced line-up with about three offensively attacking lines (Jacques Demers).

Patrick then had a great playoff (despite Montreal facing relatively weaker teams) and a nice 1993-94 season. In 1995, he was nothing special, and in 1995-96 he was moved to Colorado.... then the #1 team in the NHL. He received no Vezina votes for either of these two seasons.

His seven full seasons in Colorado, his Vezina finishes were a solid 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8, which is great but not transcendent.

For the whole period of Roy's Colorado era he ranked 4th in save percentage, which is of course really good... but he was only stopping pucks at the same rate as Roman Cechmanek, Manny Legace, and Jeff Haket now that he wasn't shielded by the League's best defence every year (not unlike the 1992-93 and 1995 seasons in Montreal). It was a goalie-dominant period, where statistically negligible differences separated future Hall of Fame goalies from ones we remember now as also-rans.

(I don't really get too deeply into playoff stuff for comparisons, with goalies. I think it's a lot harder for a star forward to score, say, 35 points in the playoffs than it is for any #1 goalie on a playoff team to get hot, with a lot of team help, and end up with Conn Smythe consideration.)

I guess my concern with the Brodeur / Roy thing is that people love to take the argument that Brodeur's success was partly due to his team's construction and system... but I rarely hear this applied to Roy, who may have been (other than Ken Dryden) the single luckiest goalie in League history in terms of team positioning — first in defence-only Montreal, and then (just at the moment all goalies suddenly started looking dominant) in super-strong Colorado.

Patrick was certainly one of the all-time greats.... but he had his embarrassing diva moments and playoff meltdowns in big moments... and he lost multiple playoff series to Mike Vernon.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Also Terry Sawchuck

With his 102 shutouts he’s not even in anyone’s top 20 anymore

He was just voted 4th all-time on these history boards.