Players on Whom Public Opinion Has Changed Drastically Since Retirement...

[DitchMarner]

The idea has been put out there that Ovechkin is likely to be ranked higher relative to Crosby more often in the future than he is now...

And that made me think: Which players have had public opinions about them shift meaningfully since retirement? Based on your experiences and/or research, are there players who are generally considered better than certain contemporary players that they were usually ranked behind/considered lesser than when they were active?

Was Trottier considered better than Bossy by most? Bossy seems to be regarded higher these days.

Click to read more...

 

[Crosby2010]

I think with the Islanders dynasty how can you go wrong with the trio of Potvin, Trottier or Bossy from a career standpoint? Pick one of them and you're in good shape regardless. For me I always thought Potvin being the leader on the back end is a hard guy to unseat from that dynasty and I think he might be the most important one and thus also had the best career. But Trottier's two way play and Bossy's consistent great goal scoring in the regular season and playoffs will always give me pause and I can see why some might pick the other two. If there was someone who I would say it was "their" team, it is Potvin though. Being the defenseman on the back end, being the captain, etc.

As for the question, usually it is guys who fans tend to look back on with more rose coloured glasses that get rated higher. Players that are in the Hall of Fame that shouldn't be. No one thought Phil Housley was a Hall of Famer when he was playing. You wouldn't have suggested it. You may have thought Gary Suter was one before he would be, and Suter wasn't getting that HHOF love either. But as time goes on and people forget the warts of the player and look at his stats then things look prettier. You gloss over things with them. Alex Mogilny to me has to be the biggest candidate for this. It was a running joke that he dogged it but did well in a contract year. Mogilny was in his prime years (or should have been) when he got traded to New Jersey and I can remember it barely being a blip on the screen when he got traded to a contender. Turgeon comes to mind as well, maybe even Nicholls. Tkachuk certainly has benefitted a lot from both of his sons playing well in the NHL and sort of giving himself a 2nd wind to re-examine his career. None of them should be in the HHOF, but some are and some are considered. I don't think any of them were among the elite players at their position, if not at all or at least too short of a time. Tkachuk was well known as a guy who should have been tailor made for the playoffs but didn't produce.

Then I guess there is the flip side. I think Lanny McDonald, Mike Vernon, Gerry Cheevers are guys that are in the HHOF and two of them got in pretty quick, but they are names where many don't like them in there. I think McDonald is fine in there. He had a nice prime, his numbers look worse career wise because he started off slow and ended off slow. But he belongs. I think Cheevers does too. I don't think Vernon does, but if this is 2002 and he just retired the assumption is he gets in someday. I can remember he was interviewed in 2005 when someone asked if he was "snubbed" getting into the HHOF on his first shot and he sort of just shrugged. In other words, I think at the time Vernon was thought to be a guy that should get in.

I'll also say there are sports-media types that change the mood of how a player is viewed who didn't likely have that sort of fandom while they were playing. I never remember Nieuwendyk or Andreychuk ever being considered "future HHOFers". But they retire and get in. Nieuwendyk gets in in his 2nd year of eligibility. Andreychuk waits longer, but the media narrative definitely puts both of them in there. I think the same might happen to Patrick Marleau. Where as the media will push the whole "games played record" and gloss over everything else about him in that he wasn't ever considered a star player, but their gushing over him will overlook all of that. Scott Niedermayer during his first retirement in 2007 that lasted half a season got the royal treatment and was pumped way too high up the list of all-time great defensemen. Meanwhile, there are two players who played with him who everyone would rank as a better defenseman (Stevens, Pronger) and even when the Devils were winning I would say Rafalski was every bit as important to those teams. But he retired on a high and the media loved that.

I am going to insert Corey Perry as this same guy too. They are already pushing his whole "he won everything at every level" type of thing and especially if he walks away with a Cup with Edmonton they'll love it.

 

[Gerulaitis]

Agreed on Mogilny .

He was arguably the world's best winger during his peak that has been severely shortened by injuries.

Most people seem to forget about how great he was.

 

[Gorskyontario]

He was arguably the world's best winger during his peak

When?

 

[MadLuke]

Maurice Richard maybe ? Not so sure where the general public is too, those with an opinion is maybe similar to the 1960 public opinion, but that one where the romance, spectacle, overtime playoff clutch moments, winning could have influenced the opinion quite a bit and die off over time.

 

[Kuljeskelen]

When?

1992-1993 perhaps?

Tied for most goals amongst wingers (and in the NHL as a whole)
Best GPG in the league and best PPG for wingers.

 

[MadLuke]

With Yzerman-Oates-Lemieux-Gretzky-Gilmour-Fedorov-Sakic-Messier, etc... all playing center, Mogilny being the best winger before the leg injury is a perfectly reasonable opinion (over the Selanne, Robitaille, Stevens, Bure, Hull, Fleury, etc...).

Hull was out his giant peak, Kurri over 30, Jagr yet to enter his prime

 

[jigglysquishy]

Maurice Richard maybe ? Not so sure where the general public is too, those with an opinion is maybe similar to the 1960 public opinion, but that one where the romance, spectacle, overtime playoff clutch moments, winning could have influenced the opinion quite a bit and die off over time.

Ya, circa 1960 I think Richard as the greatest player of all time would have been the most popular opinion.

Even into the 90s, Richard ahead of anyone but the Big Four was common. He finished 5th on the Hockey News list and 3rd on Bowman's list. Certainly, reading contemporary opinion he's treated with near religious reverence.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i think the consensus on sawchuk/plante/hall has been all over the place through my lifetime

i expect roy/hasek/brodeur will be much the same in the future

 

[Gorskyontario]

1992-1993 perhaps?

Tied for most goals amongst wingers (and in the NHL as a whole)
Best GPG in the league and best PPG for wingers.

He was not the best winger in the NHL in that season.

 

[Gerulaitis]

When?

92-93

 

[Crosby2010]

Agreed on Mogilny .

He was arguably the world's best winger during his peak that has been severely shortened by injuries.

Most people seem to forget about how great he was.

I think Selanne had a better year in 1993. Hull was easily the world's best winger prior to that. Mogilny was the 2nd best winger in the NHL in 1993. He was a 2nd team all-star in 1996 as well, but miles behind Jagr. Kariya and Selanne would have been better wingers than him for sure in 1996. He had two great seasons and a lot of seasons that left tons to be desired. I remember how great he was when he certainly tried to be. But it wasn't often enough.

Ya, circa 1960 I think Richard as the greatest player of all time would have been the most popular opinion.

Even into the 90s, Richard ahead of anyone but the Big Four was common. He finished 5th on the Hockey News list and 3rd on Bowman's list. Certainly, reading contemporary opinion he's treated with near religious reverence.

He would have been the best player all-time in 1960 for sure. And rightly so. Howe was still playing, and out of the remaining "Big 4" only Orr was born at that time, and he was 12. To be honest, even to this day it is hard to have Richard out of the top 10. I have Beliveau ahead of him and Hull too. You could say, Harvey, Jagr, Crosby. But honestly, who else with great certainty? To this day he is 8th all-time in playoff goals. And unless Ovechkin, Crosby or Malkin have a big postseason he's going to hang onto that place. And really, those are the three names that have a chance to catch the 82 goals. Richard did this in a low scoring era with two playoff rounds. Not to mention, he has 14 either 1st or 2nd all-star selections. Gordie Howe has 21. Bourque has 19. Gretzky has 15. Richard has 14. I don't think anyone else is close. Even Ovechkin who you figure would have as many only has 11. So I mean, 14 straight years and this is what happened. Only his injury-plagued rookie year and his final three seasons does he not do this. Yeah, that's epic. Bobby Hull as well has 12. Beliveau 10. The story checks out - even in 2025 - with Richard being an all-time great. His playoff resume is probably only better than perhaps Gretzky.

 

[carjackmalone]

I’d say Phil Esposito

He was the first over the top elite scoring champion in the NHL

HE’s rated between 20-30 greatest all time now

and to a lesser extent Marcel Dionne

 

[carjackmalone]

Also Terry Sawchuck

With his 102 shutouts he’s not even in anyone’s top 20 anymore

 

[Hockey Outsider]

The general consensus on Jagr seems to have improved significantly over the past ten years (though some of this was before he retired).

He's now perceived as an old man who loves the game. He was (rightfully, I think) considered a malcontent in Pittsburgh. I can't find a source, but I distinctly remember him badmouthing his teammates at the 1999(?) all-star game. His negative attitude seems to have been forgotten.

I also think that him winning five Art Ross trophies wasn't fully appreciated at the time (probably because it came right after Gretzky and Lemieux winning almost everything for 15+ years). Jagr won as many Art Ross trophies as Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin combined. I think it's taken a while for that to sink in.

 

[MadLuke]

I’d say Phil Esposito

hum, maybe the winner here ?

When he retire in 1981, the most points in a season of all time looked like this:
Wayne Gretzky.* 164 1980-81
Phil Esposito.* 152 1970-71
Phil Esposito.* 145 1973-74
Bobby Orr.....* 139 1970-71
Marcel Dionne.* 137 1979-80
Wayne Gretzky.* 137 1979-80
Guy Lafleur...* 136 1976-77
Bobby Orr.....* 135 1974-75
Marcel Dionne.* 135 1980-81
Bryan Trottier* 134 1978-79
Phil Esposito.* 133 1971-72
Guy Lafleur...* 132 1977-78
Kent Nilsson..* 131 1980-81
Phil Esposito.* 130 1972-73
Marcel Dionne.* 130 1978-79
Guy Lafleur...* 129 1978-79
Phil Esposito.* 127 1974-75
Phil Esposito.* 126 1968-69
Mike Bossy....* 126 1978-79
Guy Lafleur...* 125 1975-76
Guy Lafleur...* 125 1979-80
Bryan Trottier* 123 1977-78
Bobby Orr.....* 122 1973-74


He was second to only Howe in points and goals, 1972 legend leader (in points and in general) of the summit series which would have been the biggest thing would could have been in Hockey around that time.

5 times art ross, 6 time goal leading player were second to only Howe and Hull

Now he one of many... product of Orr, worst era of hockey leading scorer....

 

[jigglysquishy]

If this forum existed in 1980, I don't think Esposito would be considered a top 10 player of all time.

Going through contemporary reports, he's clearly behind Orr and Hull. And Howe and Beliveau and Richard and Harvey if you extend back a bit.

This forum is harsher on him than contemporary reports are. But he's also not as loved as stats would indicate.

 

[carjackmalone]

hum, maybe the winner here ?

When he retire in 1981, the most points in a season of all time looked like this:
Wayne Gretzky.* 164 1980-81
Phil Esposito.* 152 1970-71
Phil Esposito.* 145 1973-74
Bobby Orr.....* 139 1970-71
Marcel Dionne.* 137 1979-80
Wayne Gretzky.* 137 1979-80
Guy Lafleur...* 136 1976-77
Bobby Orr.....* 135 1974-75
Marcel Dionne.* 135 1980-81
Bryan Trottier* 134 1978-79
Phil Esposito.* 133 1971-72
Guy Lafleur...* 132 1977-78
Kent Nilsson..* 131 1980-81
Phil Esposito.* 130 1972-73
Marcel Dionne.* 130 1978-79
Guy Lafleur...* 129 1978-79
Phil Esposito.* 127 1974-75
Phil Esposito.* 126 1968-69
Mike Bossy....* 126 1978-79
Guy Lafleur...* 125 1975-76
Guy Lafleur...* 125 1979-80
Bryan Trottier* 123 1977-78
Bobby Orr.....* 122 1973-74


He was second to only Howe in points and goals, 1972 legend leader (in points and in general) of the summit series which would have been the biggest thing would could have been in Hockey around that time.

5 times art ross, 6 time goal leading player were second to only Howe and Hull

Now he one of many... product of Orr, worst era of hockey leading scorer....

Also if it was one year later Dennis Maruk would be high up on the list

 

[MadLuke]

Is histoby board hfboard representative of public opinion ? There is a strong notion he was much more than a Orr product on this message board.

Seem so he was 9th above Bourque on the Athletic list post expansion best player
19th on clutch points, between bourque and coffey

Maybe he is still really high in the public opinion, Gretzky destroying Esposito record could have had less impact than I thought, has he is seen such an aberration, same for Mario.

 

[dr robbie]

Maybe it was just the hockey circles I hung out with when I was a kid, but I feel like the opinion on Brodeur has changed over time. Roy, Hasek, and Brodeur were pretty regularly ranked as the top 3 goalies for their chunk of hockey history. But Brodeur was always 3rd on the list. If you weighed playoffs highly, you'd have Roy as #1 and if you weighed peak performance or visual amazement you'd probably go with Hasek. But no one outside of a biased Devil's fan would make the claim that Brodeur was the best of the 3.

Yet now it seems a lot more common that people peg him as their equal and sometimes even over the other 2. Maybe it's career totals pushing the narrative or maybe it's because his career is more recent than the other 2. I don't know, but it seems like his stock has risen since when he was playing.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Maybe it was just the hockey circles I hung out with when I was a kid, but I feel like the opinion on Brodeur has changed over time. Roy, Hasek, and Brodeur were pretty regularly ranked as the top 3 goalies for their chunk of hockey history. But Brodeur was always 3rd on the list. If you weighed playoffs highly, you'd have Roy as #1 and if you weighed peak performance or visual amazement you'd probably go with Hasek. But no one outside of a biased Devil's fan would make the claim that Brodeur was the best of the 3.

Yet now it seems a lot more common that people peg him as their equal and sometimes even over the other 2. Maybe it's career totals pushing the narrative or maybe it's because his career is more recent than the other 2. I don't know, but it seems like his stock has risen since when he was playing.

I don't have a good sense for the zeitgeist on that topic in the early aughts, though before that my perception was that Roy had taken his place in the mix for #1 with primarily Sawchuk but also Plante and Hall, and that Hasek and Brodeur were quickly building top-10 resumes. That perception comes from books, but what comes after 2007 or so comes from internet chatter.
At that point, I perceive a growing push to call Brodeur the GOAT because he's closing in on some heady career numbers, and an equal-sized backlash tarring him as a systems goalie. After the dust settled on that you have Brodeur clearly third among the 90s guys, as low as 7th in some all time rankings around here. I don't know if I've seen his stock rising overall among casuals and the like, but around here there's been a few smart posters really advocating for his adaptability, hockey sense, and other virtues. If anything, it's rising at the expense of original six players who the public doesn't remember, and don't look all that good to the average person on film.

 

[MadLuke]

Brodeur stock could rise a bit over time, as goaltender playing that much for so long would not have been a thing after him much and the focus toward playoff could become more preominant, he was good enough to make the playoff all the time anyway.

by era:
94-97 pre full dpe:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

He was in that Roy-Belfour-Hasek tier fully, he had the best numbers in the the whole league, superbe team success, .928, 1.79gaa

dpe
98-04:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Below the Roy-Belfour-Hasek tier, but right there after them, .917, 1.89GAA winning 55 games playing the most in the league. Won 2 cup in 2 smythe worthy run.

post lock out phase
06-12

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Third in win.., .915, 2.39, those are Luongo, Lundqvist, Miller numbers has an old guy for most of those, still reached the finals.

His competition all had strong to all-time great defensive team when they won (hasek, roy, belfour) as well or did not win (CuJo, Luongo, Lundqvist, Price), so I am not sure how much teeth that narrative will have.