PK Subban's defense partner

[En7ropy]

From a source of a source of a source.

So you're francois gagnon?

 

[417]

The excuses continue to pile on: he's injured; he's unhappy with his contract; the coaches misuse him, etc. The reality is, Subban is horribly overrated. Therrien, is doing nothing different than Babcock did with Subban at the Olympics. The shorthanded goal that Tampa Bay scored against the Canadiens is a microcosm of Subban's limitations. He lacks elite speed and the team has no one who can transport the puck consistently into the offensive zone. This is the task that Subban is supposedly great at. The great skating puck transporter. The truth is he can't do it. It has nothing to do with coaching. Without that ability , the team is reduced to a dump and chase play or trying to execute 'cute' entry plays at the blue line. At Tampa Bay, the 'cuteness' didn't work. And watching Subban try to catch Johnson with his clunking skating stride was pathetic. Make no mistake about it, Subban is a good player, but he is not the superstar that so many fans think. What you see this year is what you will get from Subban from hereon. The limitations in his skating will never allow him to be the franchise type player that can control the play in all three zones of the ice. Changing coaches will not make him faster. I , for one, would be very wary in paying him the lofty amounts he is asking for. I will make this prediction: if Montreal does in fact make him one of the highest paid players in the NHL, it will not take very long for the ever loyal Montreal fans to start booing Subban like he is treated in other arenas.

Come on...that Tyler Johnson breakaway was PK's fault?

DD put his 4 teamates in a horrible position and all of them were caught flat footed. Blaming PK's skating deficiencies for not being able to catch a guy who had a head start on him, while PK was caught flat footed is a self-serving argument to justify what you've been trying to sell on this board regarding his skating for weeks now.

I'll agree that PK's first few strides can be a little choppy, but once he gets going, he's a very powerful and agile skater.

Is Subban overrated? Meh...I don't really think that word holds much meaning to be honest. Some people rate Subban highly, other's don't, what does it really matter in the end?

He's had IMO, an uneven year...some spectacular play, mixed in with some subpar play. He can be much better than what he's shown this year, HOWEVER, I will also blame the coaching staff for this since it doesn't seem like he's getting much support.

There seems to be a constant will from people to change who PK is as a person and as a player, instead of just letting him developm organically, he is 24yrs old afterall. He hasn't come close to reaching his ceiling yet, there's a tendency to believe he's a finished product, when that couldn't be any further from the truth.

I'd personally like to see PK paired up with Tinordi...even when Gorges returns.

 

[ChesterNimitz]

Come on...that Tyler Johnson breakaway was PK's fault?

DD put his 4 teamates in a horrible position and all of them were caught flat footed. Blaming PK's skating deficiencies for not being able to catch a guy who had a head start on him, while PK was caught flat footed is a self-serving argument to justify what you've been trying to sell on this board regarding his skating for weeks now.

I'll agree that PK's first few strides can be a little choppy, but once he gets going, he's a very powerful and agile skater.

Is Subban overrated? Meh...I don't really think that word holds much meaning to be honest. Some people rate Subban highly, other's don't, what does it really matter in the end?

He's had IMO, an uneven year...some spectacular play, mixed in with some subpar play. He can be much better than what he's shown this year, HOWEVER, I will also blame the coaching staff for this since it doesn't seem like he's getting much support.

There seems to be a constant will from people to change who PK is as a person and as a player, instead of just letting him developm organically, he is 24yrs old afterall. He hasn't come close to reaching his ceiling yet, there's a tendency to believe he's a finished product, when that couldn't be any further from the truth.

I'd personally like to see PK paired up with Tinordi...even when Gorges returns.

I try to sell nothing but my observations as to a player's abilities. Readers can accept it or not. In my view from watching hockey for over six decades, Subban's lack of elite straight-line speed will always limit his effectiveness. He's way too easy to forecheck, has limited recovery speed and will never be able to consistently control the flow of play. This is not a player that I would be paying $8 million dollars a year for.

 

[FrontierPsyCHiatrist*]

The excuses continue to pile on: he's injured; he's unhappy with his contract; the coaches misuse him, etc. The reality is, Subban is horribly overrated. Therrien, is doing nothing different than Babcock did with Subban at the Olympics. The shorthanded goal that Tampa Bay scored against the Canadiens is a microcosm of Subban's limitations. He lacks elite speed and the team has no one who can transport the puck consistently into the offensive zone. This is the task that Subban is supposedly great at. The great skating puck transporter. The truth is he can't do it. It has nothing to do with coaching. Without that ability , the team is reduced to a dump and chase play or trying to execute 'cute' entry plays at the blue line. At Tampa Bay, the 'cuteness' didn't work. And watching Subban try to catch Johnson with his clunking skating stride was pathetic. Make no mistake about it, Subban is a good player, but he is not the superstar that so many fans think. What you see this year is what you will get from Subban from hereon. The limitations in his skating will never allow him to be the franchise type player that can control the play in all three zones of the ice. Changing coaches will not make him faster. I , for one, would be very wary in paying him the lofty amounts he is asking for. I will make this prediction: if Montreal does in fact make him one of the highest paid players in the NHL, it will not take very long for the ever loyal Montreal fans to start booing Subban like he is treated in other arenas.

Don't agree with your text at all. Do you really expect some Norris kinda result with Subban when you pair him with Bouillon? Pair him with a trust worthy d-man if you want him to play better.

In the end its probably just MT and MB low balling him to sign him cheaper. They know he was once the best D in the world but they don't want to pay him that way, so they treat him like a rookie for one more season before signing him long term - cheaper. Then they will treat him like the best D in the world.

 

[417]

I try to sell nothing but my observations as to a player's abilities. Readers can accept it or not. In my view from watching hockey for over six decades, Subban's lack of elite straight-line speed will always limit his effectiveness. He's way too easy to forecheck, has limited recovery speed and will never be able to consistently control the flow of play. This is not a player that I would be paying $8 million dollars a year for.

I think you're exagerrating his skating deficiencies...as I said, I agree that his first few steps are choppy and it can look like he's skating in quicksand (which is often why you see him circle back in his own zone to get some momentum going before he breaks out of the zone or does his spin-o-rama to create his own momentum) when he's trying to get going, but once he's up to full speed his straight-line speed is not an issue and he's got excellent edge control.

I mean, you're saying he's 'way to easy to forecheck'...i'm not sure how you can see that, he's actually very difficult to forecheck and he excels at shielding the puck from forecheckers. Same thing with not be ing able to control the flow of play, this is pure nonsense, numbers show that when Subban is on the ice, the Habs usually have the puck and he drives possesion of it.

Maybe this isn't a player that you would be willing to pay 8M/yr for...but that's around what it's going to cost, and if the Habs aren't prepared to do it, there won't be any shortage of teams lined up to do it either.

Subban is still very much raw in his game, there's still a great deal of untapped potential there, which is a scary thought because when he's on his game, there are few better IMO. If only we had a coaching staff that believed in him and challenged him, instead of trying to minimize his potential of making mistakes on the ice, we could actually see this guy become as good as anyone at his position in the league on a more consistent basis.

 

[FrontierPsyCHiatrist*]

I try to sell nothing but my observations as to a player's abilities. Readers can accept it or not. In my view from watching hockey for over six decades, Subban's lack of elite straight-line speed will always limit his effectiveness. He's way too easy to forecheck, has limited recovery speed and will never be able to consistently control the flow of play. This is not a player that I would be paying $8 million dollars a year for.

Easy to forecheck? I thought it was one of his defensive strenghts, he's great at avoiding troubles. Yes he isn't elite in every facets of hockey, but he isn't a liability either. In fact I think he's good at everything, and that's a reason he deserves 8M$.

Subban is still very much raw in his game, there's still a great deal of untapped potential there, which is a scary thought because when he's on his game, there are few better IMO. If only we had a coaching staff that believed in him and challenged him, instead of trying to minimize his potential of making mistakes on the ice, we could actually see this guy become as good as anyone at his position in the league on a more consistent basis.

Subban is an offensive d-man playing in a defensive system. Once he does what the coaching staff want him to do, or he plays in a system that fits him better, he will show his strenghts and he will know when and how to use them. It will create the illusion that he is playing better.

 

[Beige Van]

The shorthanded goal that Tampa Bay scored against the Canadiens is a microcosm of Subban's limitations.

Stopped reading here. The shorthanded goal was caused by a terrible no look pass by DD leaving the forwards trapped in the offensive zone and the defence flatfooted. You must have missed the countless times PK has wheeled back to break up a rush after a turnover this season.

 

[417]

Subban is an offensive d-man playing in a defensive system. Once he does what the coaching staff want him to do, or he plays in a system that fits him better, he will show his strenghts and he will know when and how to use them. It will create the illusion that he is playing better.

Well I think Subban is MUCH more than just an offensive Dman...we've seen this guy absolutely shut down some of the best players in the game

But I really think the coaching staff has marginalized him this year to the point where he's a lot more mistake prone than he ever has been.

Don't get me wrong, I do think that Subban is also responsible for some of his own struggles this year, he's multiplied the brain farts at an alarming rate this year something that, contrary to popular belief, we hadn't grown accustomed to in years prior.

But I also think the coaching staff has done a very poor job handling him this year...i'm not sure if he regressed, because I wasn't anticipating him having a better year this year, then he had last year - cause he was pretty stellar last year - but he's defininately not a better player, which at his age and talent, should be slightly concerning.

The coaching staff seems a bit confused as to what to do with him...they want him to grow as a player and leader, to become a more well-rounded defensman. Yet, they don't give him the opportunity to do so and would prefer living with the mistakes of older and soon-to-be-gone dmen before Subban.

It's just an odd situation to be honest...

 

[FrontierPsyCHiatrist*]

MT is selling Subban as on offensive d-man, that's how they'll sign him cheaper. Stats don't lie, he's our best defensive d-man too. That's just too obvious.

I'm not blind, Habs.

Well I think Subban is MUCH more than just an offensive Dman...we've seen this guy absolutely shut down some of the best players in the game

But I really think the coaching staff has marginalized him this year to the point where he's a lot more mistake prone than he ever has been.

Don't get me wrong, I do think that Subban is also responsible for some of his own struggles this year, he's multiplied the brain farts at an alarming rate this year something that, contrary to popular belief, we hadn't grown accustomed to in years prior.

But I also think the coaching staff has done a very poor job handling him this year...i'm not sure if he regressed, because I wasn't anticipating him having a better year this year, then he had last year - cause he was pretty stellar last year - but he's defininately not a better player, which at his age and talent, should be slightly concerning.

The coaching staff seems a bit confused as to what to do with him...they want him to grow as a player and leader, to become a more well-rounded defensman. Yet, they don't give him the opportunity to do so and would prefer living with the mistakes of older and soon-to-be-gone dmen before Subban.

It's just an odd situation to be honest...

You're right, didn't want to say he suck defensively, just think he's better in the offensive zone than in the defensive zone. And that's the reason why they put him in vulnerable positions defensively (pairing him with Bouillon), its easier to play against him and it's easier to blame him. And that's what the staffs want, remember they need to sign him cheap. They put him on the PP for 2 mins (PP specialist), they don'T play him on the PK (Can't play D - at least the PK unit is fine) and they bench him for every mistakes (liability). They create a short term illusion that he's not good enough to fully trust him so they will sign him cheaper, and might as well mess with his confidence so he won't be as effective (MTs post games interviews)... His value is at its lowest when he's about to sign his biggest contract. Coincidence?

TL;DR propaganda

 

[dcyhabs]

That post makes me think. I often hope that Therrien and Bergevin are being Machiavellian not just dumb. With Bergevin it is hard to be sure but Therrien really looks like a heart on his sleeve kind of guy.

Therrien could be resting players for the playoffs and hiding his system but he could also be a clueless coach dragging a good team down.

Therrien could be preparing for the playoffs and he may know that systems that work in the regular season die in the playoffs or he could just believe coaches don't get fired for grinding and effort.

We'll find out, I just hope we don't find out with an embarrassing first round loss. I would love some surprises the first playoff game.

 

[FrontierPsyCHiatrist*]

That post makes me think. I often hope that Therrien and Bergevin are being Machiavellian not just dumb. With Bergevin it is hard to be sure but Therrien really looks like a heart on his sleeve kind of guy.

Therrien could be resting players for the playoffs and hiding his system but he could also be a clueless coach dragging a good team down.

Therrien could be preparing for the playoffs and he may know that systems that work in the regular season die in the playoffs or he could just believe coaches don't get fired for grinding and effort.

We'll find out, I just hope we don't find out with an embarrassing first round loss. I would love some surprises the first playoff game.

Man, I think this way as well. If you want to be champion, being unpredictable and acting differently is a great tool. That's why I never was on the #FireTherrien wagon, let the man prove himself.

 

[Forsead]

I want Edler to be Subban partner !

 

[Blind Gardien]

I think Subban has probably focused on his bulk strength for his "early years", partially making up for lacking height as an NHL defenseman. He will probably start picking up some work on his acceleration and quick twitch stuff now that he's maturing and has the strength part down.

It would be pretty amazing if he did add that extra element. But I mean, he can already win Norris trophies and rate as one of the top 10 defensemen in the world even with that one minor relative flaw, so I don't see much point in overstating it.

 

[Lebowski]

The excuses continue to pile on: he's injured; he's unhappy with his contract; the coaches misuse him, etc. The reality is, Subban is horribly overrated. Therrien, is doing nothing different than Babcock did with Subban at the Olympics. The shorthanded goal that Tampa Bay scored against the Canadiens is a microcosm of Subban's limitations. He lacks elite speed and the team has no one who can transport the puck consistently into the offensive zone. This is the task that Subban is supposedly great at. The great skating puck transporter. The truth is he can't do it. It has nothing to do with coaching. Without that ability , the team is reduced to a dump and chase play or trying to execute 'cute' entry plays at the blue line. At Tampa Bay, the 'cuteness' didn't work. And watching Subban try to catch Johnson with his clunking skating stride was pathetic. Make no mistake about it, Subban is a good player, but he is not the superstar that so many fans think. What you see this year is what you will get from Subban from hereon. The limitations in his skating will never allow him to be the franchise type player that can control the play in all three zones of the ice. Changing coaches will not make him faster. I , for one, would be very wary in paying him the lofty amounts he is asking for. I will make this prediction: if Montreal does in fact make him one of the highest paid players in the NHL, it will not take very long for the ever loyal Montreal fans to start booing Subban like he is treated in other arenas.

This has to be the biggest pile of crap I've seen in a long time on this board. The SH goal was his fault? Seriously?

I think Subban has probably focused on his bulk strength for his "early years", partially making up for lacking height as an NHL defenseman. He will probably start picking up some work on his acceleration and quick twitch stuff now that he's maturing and has the strength part down.

It would be pretty amazing if he did add that extra element. But I mean, he can already win Norris trophies and rate as one of the top 10 defensemen in the world even with that one minor relative flaw, so I don't see much point in overstating it.

I think PK looks a tad slower this year compared to his Norris season, and a bit less hardy as well. I think, and this is all supposition, that he may have put a bit too much bulk on his 6ft frame to be effective at his high-octane game, which requires great speed and great stamina. 220 pounds is a lot of meat to carry around for a guy his size, especially when you consider the type of game he plays.

 

[sheed36]

Just listening to Lebrun on TSN690 and he was talking about his top dmen who he would vote for concerning the Norris this year. He said even though Karlsson's offensive numbers are great he won't be on his list for the Norris because he doesn't play on the PK and his defensive game isn't great. Subban wasn't mentioned being on his list either but dmen like Weber, Doughty, Keith, Chara, and Pietangelo were.

He said he thinks the Norris should go to an all round dman and that got me thinking.. Is MT's refusal to play Subban on the PK hurting Subban's stock around the NHL and the media that he's strictly an offensive dman like what they consider Karlsson to be? Subban proved he could be a top PK dman before MT took over when the Habs were 2nd best in the NHL on the PK so I can't see any reason why he doesn't play on the PK now.

 

[Forsead]

Just listening to Lebrun on TSN690 and he was talking about his top dmen who he would vote for concerning the Norris this year. He said even though Karlsson's offensive numbers are great he won't be on his list for the Norris because he doesn't play on the PK and his defensive game isn't great. Subban wasn't mentioned being on his list either but dmen like Weber, Doughty, Keith, Chara, and Pietangelo were.

He said he thinks the Norris should go to an all round dman and that got me thinking.. Is MT's refusal to play Subban on the PK hurting Subban's stock around the NHL and the media that he's strictly an offensive dman like what they consider Karlsson to be? Subban proved he could be a top PK dman before MT took over when the Habs were 2nd best in the NHL on the PK so I can't see any reason why he doesn't play on the PK now.

Well, I think Keith deserve it this season. I will never understand why Therrien doesn't use Subban on the PK, even last season he was used more.

Then again, Subban isn't having the kind of season I think he can.

 

[ChesterNimitz]

This has to be the biggest pile of crap I've seen in a long time on this board. The SH goal was his fault? Seriously?



I think PK looks a tad slower this year compared to his Norris season, and a bit less hardy as well. I think, and this is all supposition, that he may have put a bit too much bulk on his 6ft frame to be effective at his high-octane game, which requires great speed and great stamina. 220 pounds is a lot of meat to carry around for a guy his size, especially when you consider the type of game he plays.

Perhaps I will have to explain myself better for the more simple minded ones. My position is not that Subban caused the odious turnover, that was all on Desharnais. The question that the more intuitive readers should be asking is: why was it that Desharnais was handling the puck in the first place on an entry play on the power play. Why was he carrying the puck? Where was our supposed elite, puck moving superstar? That's the microcosm I was referring to. For whatever reason or excuse you want to rely on, Subban is not the elite puck transporter that everyone portrays him to be.


I think its interesting how the discussion has slowly turned from Subban's one of the great skaters of the game to .... he's a tad slower this year. Talk about a pile of crap. Open your eyes and see what he is. There's a reason Babcock didn't play him at the Olympics: and it is all related to the obvious limitations in Subban's skating abilities.

 

[sheed36]

Well, I think Keith deserve it this season. I will never understand why Therrien doesn't use Subban on the PK, even last season he was used more.

Then again, Subban isn't having the kind of season I think he can.

I don't think Subban deserves a mention for the Norris this season either and I agree Keith will likely win it. After listening to Lebrun though I just wondered if MT not playing Subban on the PK and not playing him tougher defensive minutes is hurting his stock around the NHL in general.

Subban's offensive game is very good and I believe his defensive game is underrated simply because of MT's refusal to give him PK minutes and not giving him tougher defensive assignments. If MT doesn't think Subban is good enough defensively for whatever reason to play him in that role more how can he improve his game in that department?

 

[Team_Spirit]

Just listening to Lebrun on TSN690 and he was talking about his top dmen who he would vote for concerning the Norris this year. He said even though Karlsson's offensive numbers are great he won't be on his list for the Norris because he doesn't play on the PK and his defensive game isn't great. Subban wasn't mentioned being on his list either but dmen like Weber, Doughty, Keith, Chara, and Pietangelo were.

He said he thinks the Norris should go to an all round dman and that got me thinking.. Is MT's refusal to play Subban on the PK hurting Subban's stock around the NHL and the media that he's strictly an offensive dman like what they consider Karlsson to be? Subban proved he could be a top PK dman before MT took over when the Habs were 2nd best in the NHL on the PK so I can't see any reason why he doesn't play on the PK now.

They want Subban on the ice for 2 minutes on the PP. Subban was not playing the full 2 minutes before MT.

They could care less what the Toronto reporters have to say about it.

BTW Habs are 3rd on the PK.

 

[Teufelsdreck]

Looks like the canadiens didn't really think that it was an issue but Subban has been playing with Gorges & Bouillon for the most part of the year.

If you want to play him for 25 + minutes, you need to get him a good defense partner that can play big minutes.

A guy like Jay Bouwmester or a Seabrook

How about Chara?

 

[Teufelsdreck]

Everybody keeps reading it as Monocle when I write that.

Mononcle means 'uncle/my uncle' in french, but my usage stems more from saying ' un vieux mononcle', old out of touch fart who doesn't know jack **** about anything.

It would help if you inserted a space.

 

[Harpo]

It would help if you inserted a space.

"Mononc" or "Mononcle" is a word in itself in Quebec. No space required. Like "goddammit".

We even say "Mon mononcle était chaud en tabarn*k à Noël, y'é tombé dans le sapin pis y'a renvoyé dans l'sac à vidanges avec toute le papier d'emballâge".

 

[Lozela]

I try to sell nothing but my observations as to a player's abilities. Readers can accept it or not. In my view from watching hockey for over six decades, Subban's lack of elite straight-line speed will always limit his effectiveness. He's way too easy to forecheck, has limited recovery speed and will never be able to consistently control the flow of play. This is not a player that I would be paying $8 million dollars a year for.

Suter - Brodin
Doughty - Voynov
Keith - Seabrook
Pietrangelo - Bouwmeester

Moral of the story is that you need a # 2 or another #1 to play with a #1.

You can't have you're #1 playing with a #6-7 or a guy that spent the whole season in hamilton.

 

[Blind Gardien]

I don't think Subban deserves a mention for the Norris this season either and I agree Keith will likely win it. After listening to Lebrun though I just wondered if MT not playing Subban on the PK and not playing him tougher defensive minutes is hurting his stock around the NHL in general.

Well, I think it goes without saying that it is. But worse than that, I feel like it is affecting Subban himself. He's more tenative and less physical in the defensive zone, makes more nervous mistakes than I've ever seen him make before, including his rookie cameos. It is not chicken and egg, it is pure cause and effect. The chains are holding him back and turning him into a worse player. It's not just about "stock".

As for the penalty kill and the matchups, the Habs are riding a mirage. They are 3rd. Thanks to Price. They would not be worse with Subban playing 27 minutes including 2 mins on the PK than they are with him playing 24 minutes and nothing on the PK. Well, they might be worse now that they've stripped Subban of confidence and edge. But they wouldn't have been if they hadn't done that. And they would have been far better off having a 27 minute-a-night-all-situations-Norris-candidate than they are now with a 24-minute-a-night-2-minute-PP-sheltered-nonNorris-candidate defenseman.

Basically, #FireTherrien.

 

[habscup*]

Perhaps I will have to explain myself better for the more simple minded ones. My position is not that Subban caused the odious turnover, that was all on Desharnais. The question that the more intuitive readers should be asking is: why was it that Desharnais was handling the puck in the first place on an entry play on the power play. Why was he carrying the puck? Where was our supposed elite, puck moving superstar? That's the microcosm I was referring to. For whatever reason or excuse you want to rely on, Subban is not the elite puck transporter that everyone portrays him to be.


I think its interesting how the discussion has slowly turned from Subban's one of the great skaters of the game to .... he's a tad slower this year. Talk about a pile of crap. Open your eyes and see what he is. There's a reason Babcock didn't play him at the Olympics: and it is all related to the obvious limitations in Subban's skating abilities.

What a joke of a post. Seriously. WOW... Did you watch the sens game when subban went through the whole team and tru philips and karlsson causing a sens penalty?

Then 3 assists in 5 minutes to tie the game? Amazing composure with 0.3 seconds left passing it to desharnais instead of shooting when everybody was thinking shoot? You have no ****in idea wtf ur talking about, find another sport.