TSN: PJ Stock explores fighting and cheap shots

[eco's bones]

Personally I don't look at Orpik's hit on Eriksson as a clean hit. The puck goes around the boards and rebounds away from Louie--he never had possession or even touched it and when he turns back up the ice he's almost immediately hit up high. Not having received the puck I doubt he was at all ready to take a hit for it. Players think like this--'I didn't touch the puck. I'm not fair game'. Orpik did not have to make that hit but he did anyway and he hit Eriksson full force as he was turning. It's a blindside hit as far as I'm concerned of a player who never touched the puck. That he just was coming back from a concussion factors into it as well. Orpik is back skating. Eriksson is not. More concern among fans around the league about this ****head Orpik.

 

[TheRightWay]

Personally I don't look at Orpik's hit on Eriksson as a clean hit. The puck goes around the boards and rebounds away from Louie--he never had possession or even touched it and when he turns back up the ice he's almost immediately hit up high. Not having received the puck I doubt he was at all ready to take a hit for it. Players think like this--'I didn't touch the puck. I'm not fair game'. Orpik did not have to make that hit but he did anyway and he hit Eriksson full force as he was turning. It's a blindside hit as far as I'm concerned of a player who never touched the puck. That he just was coming back from a concussion factors into it as well. Orpik is back skating. Eriksson is not. More concern among fans around the league about this ****head Orpik.

Whatever. Let's say you're right. This doesn't change the general can of worms being opened here, which is that Ryan Callahan is now not allowed to make a perfectly legitimate, clean hit without any protection from Tom Sestito skating over and pummeling him. Unless your solution is to have the Rangers have their own Tom Sestito to go after Henrik Sedin. Again, we're now creating a situation where Henrik Sedin has to "answer the bell" to Stu Bickel or whoever you want to pick because of a clean hit by Ryan Callahan.

 

[mandiblesofdoom]

If you read the full article you quoted, you'd have seen that Parker said his most debilitating injuries/symptoms began after he took a puck to his eye.
"Despite the thousands of punches he received, Parker believes the downward spiral of his health started not from a fist, but a puck that hit him in the right eye in a 2005 preseason game when he was playing for San Jose. He immediately felt symptoms he had never experienced before."


If you're going to bust on people, at least do your own homework. You failed the reading comprehension test.

Gee, one puck to the eye vs hundreds of blows to the head ... I wonder what caused the most damage ....

 

[Unpredictable1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqEf2MKOogE&list=FLwbawQ-x3q6C-wy03jyMQrw

this is great totally expresses my feelings in a way I never could.. whats your thoughts

I honestly couldn't have said it better than PJ in that clip. That was very well put.

Orpik's hit on Eriksson was not a clean hit. Orpik assumed Eriksson was getting that puck when in fact it took a different bounce off the boards and went behind him, not in front of him. Orpik choose to clobber him anyways knowing full well he was hitting to almost maim him. It's what he does.

Orpik has made plenty of these borderline hits and to be honest - he had it coming to him.

There's plenty of hard clean hits, Orpik's hit in this play is clearly not an example of one.

This whole situation has the publicity it has because of Orpik's glass jaw.

The Rightway: in talking about policing the game with fighting and talking about a player making dirty plays, then getting beat down, thus deterring him from doing so in the future - it's more about that immediate game, not the sob's remaining career. If they see a game that doesn't have a player to make them answer and they have free reign, they'll get up to their old tricks again for sure. Cheers.

 

[TheRightWay]

I honestly couldn't have said it better than PJ in that clip. That was very well put.

Orpik's hit on Eriksson was not a clean hit. Orpik assumed Eriksson was getting that puck when in fact it took a different bounce off the boards and went behind him, not in front of him. Orpik choose to clobber him anyways knowing full well he was hitting to almost maim him. It's what he does.

Orpik has made plenty of these borderline hits and to be honest - he had it coming to him.

There's plenty of hard clean hits, Orpik's hit in this play is clearly not an example of one.

This whole situation has the publicity it has because of Orpik's glass jaw.

The Rightway: in talking about policing the game with fighting and talking about a player making dirty plays, then getting beat down, thus deterring him from doing so in the future - it's more about that immediate game, not the sob's remaining career. If they see a game that doesn't have a player to make them answer and they have free reign, they'll get up to their old tricks again for sure. Cheers.

I already detailed the last 5 years of Steve Ott's career and shown how, despite a number of players instigating a fight with him after a cheap hit and decidedly winning the fight, Steve Ott continues his antics. Feel free to read back and find it, then explain how that fits into your plan of deterrence.

 

[Unpredictable1]

I already detailed the last 5 years of Steve Ott's career and shown how, despite a number of players instigating a fight with him after a cheap hit and decidedly winning the fight, Steve Ott continues his antics. Feel free to read back and find it, then explain how that fits into your plan of deterrence.

Did you detail the rest of his antics within that specific game after the fight? Or did I miss that in your rant?

I clearly said it was for the specific game being played in.

 

[TheRightWay]

Did you detail the rest of his antics within that specific game after the fight? Or did I miss that in your rant?

I clearly said it was for the specific game being played in.

I'm not understanding your assertion here. You're saying that if Steve Ott throws a borderline hit, then someone instigates a fight with him and wins, he's now playing the rest of his game with his tail between his legs?

 

[TankLarkin]

PJ's right. There'd be a lot less cheap shots if guys like Orpik, Kaleta, Marchand and Neal had to answer the bell when guys like Lucic, McGratton and Mclaren come calling. And not for nothin', the game was a helluva a lot more entertaining in the 70s, 80s, 90s. Nobody died. Fans loved it. But I guess today's politically correct society is down on testosterone so Bettman and Co have to go along to get a long. Domi vs Probert at MSG. Who was there?

 

[slipknottin]

It's not a politically correct thing at all.

It's a money thing

 

[TheRightWay]

PJ's right. There'd be a lot less cheap shots if guys like Orpik, Kaleta, Marchand and Neal had to answer the bell when guys like Lucic, McGratton and Mclaren come calling.

As has been displayed over and over again in this thread, fighting did nothing/has done nothing to deter guys like Stevens, Hunter, Messier, Brashear, Ott, Pronger, etc. from throwing some elbows and other borderline hits.

And not for nothin', the game was a helluva a lot more entertaining in the 70s, 80s, 90s.

And as long as people are getting entertained who cares about the consequences!

Nobody died. Fans loved it. But I guess today's politically correct society is down on testosterone so Bettman and Co have to go along to get a long. Domi vs Probert at MSG. Who was there?

Once again. The consequences of fighting are often not apparent seconds after the fight occurs. Ask Wade Belak, Derek Boogaard, Rick Rypien, etc. all about that. In fact, you even cite Bob Probert, whose death was directly associated with health problems resulting from years of fighting. But who cares that his poor children watched their 45 year old dad die right in front of them. As long as you got to be entertained 20 years ago for a few minutes!

 

[Unpredictable1]

I'm not understanding your assertion here. You're saying that if Steve Ott throws a borderline hit, then someone instigates a fight with him and wins, he's now playing the rest of his game with his tail between his legs?

It's not that hard to see, not so much a tail between the legs but a bit more honest the rest of the game. You can honestly say that's not the case?

Forget Steve Ott, anyone for that matter. It happens at all levels of hockey - unless you were the type of player who played that way and didn't see why you had to answer for it...

Bad stuff will happen in the game with so much high speed contact. Some malicious, some not. Everyone knows when something has malicious intent and going a bit too far. I believe fighting has to stay because of it.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

I just want to thank TheRightWay for all of his excellent posting in this thread - your tireless, patient responses are much appreciated. You saved me hours of writing, my friend.

(Clearly you didn't have a lot to do at work today.)

 

[TheRightWay]

It's not that hard to see, not so much a tail between the legs but a bit more honest the rest of the game. You can honestly say that's not the case?

Forget Steve Ott, anyone for that matter. It happens at all levels of hockey - unless you were the type of player who played that way and didn't see why you had to answer for it...

Bad stuff will happen in the game with so much high speed contact. Some malicious, some not. Everyone knows when something has malicious intent and going a bit too far. I believe fighting has to stay because of it.

Do you not remember the Bruins-Stars game when Avery and Ott ran around causing all sorts of **** the entire game?

 

[Thirty One]

I just want to thank TheRightWay for all of his excellent posting in this thread - your tireless, patient responses are much appreciated. You saved me hours of writing, my friend.

This.

 

[eco's bones]

Whatever. Let's say you're right. This doesn't change the general can of worms being opened here, which is that Ryan Callahan is now not allowed to make a perfectly legitimate, clean hit without any protection from Tom Sestito skating over and pummeling him. Unless your solution is to have the Rangers have their own Tom Sestito to go after Henrik Sedin. Again, we're now creating a situation where Henrik Sedin has to "answer the bell" to Stu Bickel or whoever you want to pick because of a clean hit by Ryan Callahan.

IMO--it's not even 'lets say'. First off I think that whoever first stated it was a clean hit either has not recently looked at it clearly or has a very foggy memory of it--is blind or biased. And just because a hit is not penalized does not mean it's a 'good' or 'clean' hit.

But whatever yourself. Maybe you should take another look at the hit and wonder why it could possibly have pissed off Thornton? The pass was way off the mark and rebounded off the boards in the opposite direction that Eriksson was turning to receive it. He never really had a chance of getting his stick on it--the most that can be said was for a brief split second the puck was in his vicinity. He turns up ice and is almost immediately crushed. He never had the puck and did not expect to get hit because he didn't touch it and it's very unlikely he saw Orpik coming his way.

As to your point about Callahan's allowability to make a clean hit--I don't think 1) that Callahan would worry very much about the Sestito's of the world and whether they want to take ******* penalties--Ryan's got a lot of fortitude--he's not your best example--you might use Richards or Brassard instead. 2) What's stopping Sestito now from doing that?--the referees?--the league? Off ice justice doesn't work nearly as well as on ice justice IMO. But then again the fans need their bureaucracies so as to go on believing things are on the up and up.

As far as finding a Bickel to run at Henrik Sedin--a lot of Rangers fans have short memories or no memory of #11. Stars goons take runs at Leetch one game. All that ended when Messier blindsides and knocks out Mike Modano. That's on ice justice and that was a good Rangers team protecting its own.

 

[Ail]

Dale Hunter? 227 career NHL fights.

What are you trying to prove?

I find it incredible that Dale Hunter had to fight 227 times to make sure that everyone was always kept in check. You'd think with fighting being such a deterrent, he'd only have to fight a handful of times before everyone got the message.

I guess it's like the police in America. Every now and then you just have to shoot someone, or taze them and kick their ass for no reason so the rest of the population doesn't do anything bad.

 

[Ail]

As has been displayed over and over again in this thread, fighting did nothing/has done nothing to deter guys like Stevens, Hunter, Messier, Brashear, Ott, Pronger, etc. from throwing some elbows and other borderline hits.




And as long as people are getting entertained who cares about the consequences!



Once again. The consequences of fighting are often not apparent seconds after the fight occurs. Ask Wade Belak, Derek Boogaard, Rick Rypien, etc. all about that. In fact, you even cite Bob Probert, whose death was directly associated with health problems resulting from years of fighting. But who cares that his poor children watched their 45 year old dad die right in front of them. As long as you got to be entertained 20 years ago for a few minutes!

Totally worth it. I bet his teammates are thanking him too for his selfless work in keeping them from getting run back then so they can live long happy lives post-retirement!

 

[Ail]

Hilariously and ironically enough when fighting finally does leave the NHL all of the same concussions we see people getting now will be blamed on the lack of fighting from the same crowd crying now that fights prevents those types of hits.

I can't wait for that glorious day. The "I told you sos" will rain down gloriously upon us.

 

[Unpredictable1]

Do you not remember the Bruins-Stars game when Avery and Ott ran around causing all sorts of **** the entire game?

I remember that game, if it wasn't their first game playing together it was early on the season? Look at all the games that get played and you're presenting that as the norm?

There's too much disrespect in the game today and I'm not talking about smack talk etc. Some fellas deserve to get tuned up for their borderline actions.

You've got me wrong if you think I believe it should happen after hard clean hits. Unless it involves a star player getting tagged, well, an ensuing donnybrook is almost a given and is as old as the game.

But where someone is clearly taken an advantage of, as Eriksson in this hit, don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

I thought we were talking about dirty hits in this thread and the relation to fighting? If you think the Orpik hit is perfectly clean on Eriksson, then I know the type of hockey you like to play and we'll never come to an agreement.

 

[CarpeNoctem]

Gee, one puck to the eye vs hundreds of blows to the head ... I wonder what caused the most damage ....

Not saying taking punches didn't cause some damage but there you have it from the horses mouth. That's when he began to first experience severe symptoms. Discount that if you like but it's foolhardy to do so.

 

[TankLarkin]

But who cares that his poor children watched their 45 year old dad die right in front of them. As long as you got to be entertained 20 years ago for a few minutes!

Do you watch the NFL? If so, you're no less guilty. I feel no guilt, though. Over the years, there have been 1000s of tough guys in NHL, AHL, CHL, etc and you throw out 5 names. Typical.

 

[Thirty One]

Do you watch the NFL? If so, you're no less guilty. I feel no guilt, though. Over the years, there have been 1000s of tough guys in NHL, AHL, CHL, etc and you throw out 5 names. Typical.

I watch the NFL. I don't feel guilty, because I don't think they should needlessly subject themselves to concussions for my entertainment. If I were in a position of influence in the league, I may feel guilty.

He names 5 names. There are many more that have suffered, though. More than 200 players are currently suing the league over concussions.

 

[TheRightWay]

I remember that game, if it wasn't their first game playing together it was early on the season? Look at all the games that get played and you're presenting that as the norm?

You keep moving the goalposts here. First it was, "maybe it doesn't deter Ott game-to-game, but I bet he stopped every individual game after getting his ass kicked!" Then I provide evidence blatantly confirming that this is not the case. Now it's about "all the games." So what's your point here. Fighting didn't stop Ott from being a jackass for future games, and sometimes not even game-by-game, but I bet we can find a few examples where it did! Well done! A truly convincing argument that fighting deters stupidity.

There's too much disrespect in the game today and I'm not talking about smack talk etc. Some fellas deserve to get tuned up for their borderline actions.

This keeps being brought up AGAIN AND AGAIN and every time nobody has actual evidence supporting this. It's just like old people who insist that "times were simpler back in my day." It's all ******** and nostalgia driven. Once again. McSorley on Brashear. Bertuzzi on Steve Moore. Dale Hunter on Turgeon. Ciccorelli and Tiger Williams swinging sticks around. All the way back to the 1930s and you can find Eddie Shore FRACTURING ACE BAILEY'S SKULL and ending his hockey career because he retaliated for a hit someone else threw. To drive home the fallacy of there being more "respect" in the past I'll use this quote.

"The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise."

Sounds like a quote your grandpa would say to you now, right? About how today's kids are spoiled and didn't have it hard like he did and blah blah blah? Guess what. That's a quote from Socrates from around 400 B.C. Even thousands of years ago the same ******** nostalgia and disparaging of "today's kids" and their "disrespect" was being thrown around. I guarantee Stan Fischler was whining in 1980 about the attitudes of players compared to the players he covered in 1940.

You've got me wrong if you think I believe it should happen after hard clean hits. Unless it involves a star player getting tagged, well, an ensuing donnybrook is almost a given and is as old as the game.

So what's your solution on borderline plays here? The game happens a million miles an hour. Should the referees call time out and let the Colorado Avalanche collectively huddle around a TV screen watching replays of a borderline Nik Kronwall hit so we can see whether it was clean or not? And then let them take justice into their hands if necessary? How do we draw the line here?

I thought we were talking about dirty hits in this thread and the relation to fighting? If you think the Orpik hit is perfectly clean on Eriksson, then I know the type of hockey you like to play and we'll never come to an agreement.

We are. Unfortunately, nobody has given factual, objective evidence that fighting as a retaliation for dirty hits serves as a successful method of keeping the game safe. All anyone has done is give anecdotal ******** about, "I remember that one time Mark Messier stood up for a teammate and it worked." As I've said before in this thread. You can keep asserting that effectively serves as a deterrence. I can assert myself that playing hopscotch can lead to leukemia. Until either of us provides evidence to actually back up the claims, the claims are meaningless.

 

[Thirty One]

Not saying taking punches didn't cause some damage but there you have it from the horses mouth. That's when he began to first experience severe symptoms. Discount that if you like but it's foolhardy to do so.

Scott Parker currently have the communication and reasoning abilities of a low-functioning horse. I doubt that all stemmed from one puck.

 

[TankLarkin]

I watch the NFL. I don't feel guilty, because I don't think they should needlessly subject themselves to concussions for my entertainment. If I were in a position of influence in the league, I may feel guilty.

He names 5 names. There are many more that have suffered, though. More than 200 players are currently suing the league over concussions.

Then you think the NFL should be abolished, right?

How many of the 200 claim the concussions came from fighting?