Bennett Brauer
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I know, but like I mentioned, the drafting seemed to have improved recently.
We know the guys drafted from 06 to 09 didn't pan out but it's TBD from 2010 to now.
Pittsburgh Sports Media Gibberish: Bombulie to restore order @ the Trib
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I know, but like I mentioned, the drafting seemed to have improved recently.
We know the guys drafted from 06 to 09 didn't pan out but it's TBD from 2010 to now.
From the 2013 draft, I would buy that it is still TBD because most of the players outside of the first round have yet to make an impact. But from 2010, 2011, 2012 other teams have forwards making an impact including:
2010 draft picks making an impact (selected below Bennett)
Sheahan
Kuznetsov
Coyle
Etem
Nelson
DSP
Toffoli
Zucker
B Gallagher
M Stone
2011 draft picks making an impact (selected below Morrow)
Namestnikov
Rakell
Jurco
Jenner
Jaskin
Saad
Nieto
Kucherov
Trocheck
Lowry
Pageau
Gaudreau
Rieder
Shaw
Palat
2012 draft picks making an impact (selected below Pouliot)
Forsberg
Grigorenko
Girgensons
Ceci
Wilson
Hertl
Pearson
Paquette
Pens only have Bennett. That is not an improvement.
2010 - Bennett's the only one I can see being a somewhat serviceable NHLer, if he can stay healthy. This team's certainly done quite a number on his development.
2011 - Harrington and Morrow might crack the NHL. Not sure how well either does, or if they'll ever been legitimate impact NHLers.
2012 - Maatta's a stud in the making, if he can come back from injury and pick up where his development left off (big if, but I'm hoping--otherwise we're even more ****ed than we are now). Pouliot's got the tools to be great offensively, but he's not exactly ready for the NHL yet. Sundqvist and Murray are looking very promising as well. Fantastic draft, especially by our standards.
2013 - Jarry looked good at first, but has been pretty lackluster since. That's about all I've got for that draft...
2014 - KK looks promising, but still needs a Hell of a lot of polish before he's even ready to sniff the NHL.
Of those 5 years of drafts, we have three NHL-quality forwards--two of which look to be good 3rd liners (but 3rd liners nonetheless), two surefire NHL defenseman, two borderline NHL defensemen, one extremely promising goalie prospect and one meh goalie prospect. We have no Saads, no Tarasenkos, no Teravainens, no Forsbergs. No elite forward prospects, save for maybe KK--but that's a stretch I think. We'll have to wait and see how KK pans out.
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Bennett Brauer
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Those are our notable names, it's too early to close the book on our recent late round picks. Guys like Rust, Uher, Blueger, Byron, Guentzel, Zlobin, even Archibald and Lindo might surprise us, I'm not getting my hopes up and I don't expect it but it's too early to tell with those guys. Kapanen and Bennett are the only ones with top 6 potential, sure, but that doesn't mean we don't have potential NHL forwards and I also know every team has the same caliber prospects.
Some of it can be attributed to trading picks for rentals. We couldn't get a lot of those guys listed in 2010 because we didn't have our 2nd round pick, other than Gallagher and Stone, the 2010 draft didn't have much late round talent. I don't blame us for taking Bennett. If we didn't trade a 1st for Iginla, we could have drafted a solid forward prospect however with Shero being our GM, I wouldn't be surprised if we selected Chris Bigras 28th overall.
I understand all the forward talent we didn't select but at the same time, we did stockpile solid D prospects, so either way we would be talking about holes. If we drafted wingers in the first and 2nd rounds, who would we have on defense?
Hindsight arguments are tough because we chose defensemen over forwards in drafts which is why we lack forward talent, if we take forwards, we lack defensive depth and with defensemen being the most overpaid players on July 1st, who would we have on defense? We could have drafted all the forward talent we wanted, we should have taken Saad but that may mean no Harrington which is fine. If we take Forsberg in 2012, we might not have Pouliot or Maatta which would suck.
You can't look at it one way and not the other, sure the Penguins missed out on plenty of wingers in the early rounds of the draft but they did come away with solid prospects at each position regardless. We do have a couple solid forward prospects, a few solid young defensemen and 2 solid goalie prospects.
Some of it can be attributed to trading picks for rentals. We couldn't get a lot of those guys listed in 2010 because we didn't have our 2nd round pick, other than Gallagher and Stone, the 2010 draft didn't have much late round talent. I don't blame us for taking Bennett. If we didn't trade a 1st for Iginla, we could have drafted a solid forward prospect however with Shero being our GM, I wouldn't be surprised if we selected Chris Bigras 28th overall.
I understand all the forward talent we didn't select but at the same time, we did stockpile solid D prospects, so either way we would be talking about holes. If we drafted wingers in the first and 2nd rounds, who would we have on defense?
Hindsight arguments are tough because we chose defensemen over forwards in drafts which is why we lack forward talent, if we take forwards, we lack defensive depth and with defensemen being the most overpaid players on July 1st, who would we have on defense? We could have drafted all the forward talent we wanted, we should have taken Saad but that may mean no Harrington which is fine. If we take Forsberg in 2012, we might not have Pouliot or Maatta which would suck.
You can't look at it one way and not the other, sure the Penguins missed out on plenty of wingers in the early rounds of the draft but they did come away with solid prospects at each position regardless. We do have a couple solid forward prospects, a few solid young defensemen and 2 solid goalie prospects.
I'd rather have a kid who is already an all-world LW (Forsberg) on Sid or Geno's wing than Pouliot 10000 times out of 10. Pouliot's never gonna reach that kind of ceiling, especially if we don't fix the rest of our blueline, and quickly. Maatta fell to us, so I'll just go with the hypothetical that he'd be our pick at 22.
It's one thing to say "we'd have holes elsewhere," it's another thing to say "we'd have holes elsewhere, but Sid and Geno would have long-term wingers." I'd much rather be in that position. As we've seen from the past decade, it's a Hell of a lot easier to find serviceable defenders to fill out the blueline than it is to surround Sid and Geno with legitimate talent. Hell, our defense is in shambles now despite drafting a boatload of defensemen. They either didn't pan out, or we moved 'em. So, the area we drafted so heavily in is still a huge issue.
I dunno man. To say our drafting's been anything but atrocious since we landed Staal with the #2 pick (not even the 5th best player picked in that first round), is a bit of a fallacy. We stubbornly focused on one area with the idea that we'd be insanely deep at defense and set for a long time--or we'd move the defensemen to address other areas of need. Neither of those things happened, and here we are, with a terrible prospect pool.
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A comment from that article:
That's from George Saad, who is the dad of Brandon Saad (obviously). Which one should we believe here? Then again, why would the scouts decide who the better fit for the team is?
That's hardly true. His numbers did take a dip this year (not much though, his save% dropped .007), but the Oil Kings were a drastically worse team this year than they were last year. Jarry was still a finalist for the WHL goalie of the year award again this year like he was last year. Calling Jarry "lackluster" is crazy. I think Murray's insane season has made people have weird expectations for our goalie prospects.
Deport Ogie
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Later on, DK says that his source's reaction to Shero drafting Morrow was "a string of unprintable epithets" and then DK wrote something indicating that he half-worried this fact alone would give away his source, though he suspected the source wouldn't care.
Given all that, I tend to believe it was Artie. Who else would readers know for being a person involved in team drafts that would also be recognizable for dropping a number of cuss bombs?
Given all that, I tend to believe it was Artie. Who else would readers know for being a person involved in team drafts that would also be recognizable for dropping a number of cuss bombs?
Bennett Brauer
Registered User
I'd take Forsberg over Pouliot also but that doesn't mean Pouliot isn't a great prospect to have. Maatta might have only fell to us because of who was available to other teams, like a domino effect. If we draft Forsberg, maybe the Capitals see Maatta as a steal at 11th overall since Forsberg wouldn't be there, then the Flames don't trade their 14th pick and they take Pouliot, then at 22nd overall, our best pick could be Henrik Samuelsson. I'd rather have Pouliot and Maatta than Forsberg and Samuelsson. That's why you can't look at drafts in hindsight because in the case of 2012, if we take Forsberg, we might not have ended up with Pouliot and Maatta.
Is it though? Look at the contracts defensemen are getting on the UFA market. Martin at $5M, Gonchar at $5.5M, Orpik at $5.5M, Niskanen at $5.75M, Goligoski at $4.6M, Ehrhoff at $4M (looking for a raise), Michalek at $4M, Scuderi at $3.3M.
If we aren't drafting these defensemen, then we're paying premium prices for an overall average blue line, while wingers like Saad and Forsberg would be in line for huge raises right now, we would be in some serious salary cap hell.
We can still surround Sid and Geno with talent, Perron and Hornqvist are fine players. Kunitz isn't the answer, maybe Kapanen will be down the road, maybe they acquire a winger for Malkin's line via trade, maybe they sign Plotkinov, there are other ways to acquire forward talent.
Oh no doubt, overall it's been bad. However, I disagree with you, I think we are deep on defense and while we may not be set for a long time, Pouliot, Maatta, Letang, Cole, Harrington, and Dumoulin is really good depth. Plug in a veteran or two and you're set.
I also disagree with us having a terrible prospect pool, we have solid prospects with a good pedigree at each position. We're not stacked by any means but we have quality youth that we can look forward to.
The 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009 drafts were bad. Time is running out on 2010 with Bennett and Rust, we will see about 2011 with Harrington, Uher and Archibald. 2012 was Shero's best draft and I see Pouliot, Maatta, Murray, and Sundqvist having good NHL careers with guys like Blueger and Zlobin having potential. We got a good goalie prospect in Jarry and a decent forward prospect in Guentzel in 2013, did people already give up on him because he's an undersized college player? He's a talented player and a good prospect. We didn't have many picks in 2014 and Kapanen looks like a a great prospect and someone who can make an impact for us, maybe Lindo in the future but who knows.
At the moment we have a mid 2nd, we can add a good prospect with that pick, whether it's a forward, another D, or even a goalie, there should be good players available with that pick and lately, the Penguins are getting good players in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.
Bennett Brauer
Registered User
What George Saad says make sense, either way the organization as a whole was stupid for that pick. Everyone involved deserves blame. I can guarantee the reason why a "defenseman was a better fit for the team" was because they just drafted Beau Bennett and Bryan Rust with their 2 early picks in 2010 and they traded Goligoski for Neal. So Shero did the math, 3 young forwards, no young defensemen.
Source that defensemen are more over-paid than forwards - look at Clarkson, Umberger, B Pouliot, etc?
The guys that I listed are already contributing. As you said, almost every other team has their Uhers and Rusts who may still contribute.
The Pens are not set at the blueline. They will likely need to sign a top 4 defensemen because the younger players don't have enough games played and experience (<1 yr/ 1 season). They have limited depth, and there is no stockpile left to the point that Rutherford suggested that the Pens will draft more defensemen. What's worse is that the return for those defensemen has been limited.
Pens do not have solid forward prospects that are guaranteed to make an impact in the NHL. They have one player in the NHL (4th line, healthy scratch) and two that are likely full time NHLers - Sundqvist and Kapanen. That's it.
It's not hindsight to know that there are more forwards on the team than defensemen or goalies. Yet the Pens drafted more defensemen then necessary and used most of their high round picks on defensemen. It is also not hindsight to know that the Pens desperately needed wingers.
There isn't a credible argument to be made that the Pens drafting was successful in regards to forwards or positioning the team for success under Shero.
It was a pretty funny exchange. DK emphasizes tha RS had the only vote on the pick in his main post.
Then George friggen Saad comments that this is news to him, since RS emphasized to his face Saad was the pick. Says RS put it on the scouts eval that they switched to a D.
DK bounces back saying "oh no, that would never be the scout's job"
Seriously, what a ***** clown show.
Then George friggen Saad comments that this is news to him, since RS emphasized to his face Saad was the pick. Says RS put it on the scouts eval that they switched to a D.
DK bounces back saying "oh no, that would never be the scout's job"
Seriously, what a ***** clown show.
Shady Machine
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- Aug 6, 2010
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Define good portion and tell me who else who didn't know the rule. The only one we know who seemed unclear on it was JR.
Shady Machine
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Honestly, I trust Saad's dad more than DK. For all of the criticism we give to Shero, and most of it is deserved, he seemed to be an honest man. If he told Brandon's dad they would pick him if he was available, I believe that was his intent at the time. Now, maybe his intent changed based on input from his scouts, but I don't think Shero would lie to his face.
DK seems to be trying really hard to pump the tires of the current regime while criticizing the old regime. This seems like another example of that. I'm not saying DK is lying, but I wouldn't be surprised if his report isn't entirely true.
That said, does it really matter? Our scouting staff is mediocre to poor anyway, regardless of Shero's insights and preferences.
DK seems to be trying really hard to pump the tires of the current regime while criticizing the old regime. This seems like another example of that. I'm not saying DK is lying, but I wouldn't be surprised if his report isn't entirely true.
That said, does it really matter? Our scouting staff is mediocre to poor anyway, regardless of Shero's insights and preferences.
What I don't like about the people complaining about us picking Saad over Morrow is that it is a fair amount in hindsight. Coming into the draft, Saad was not rated as a sure fire 1st rounder. He only had 27 goals and 55 points in 59 regular season games and 3 goals and 12 points in 12 playoff games, which isn't that good for a 1st round pick. Comparing him to late 1st rounder wingers from the CHL is unfavorable against Saad. The CHL wingers that were picked around where our pick was (Noesen and Puempel) had much better totals than Saad did. Noesen, who was drafted 21st, had 34 goals and 77 points in 68 games. Puempel, who was drafted 24th, had 34 goals and 69 points in 55 games. Joe Morrow, while a bad pick in hindsight, was higher ranked going into the draft and had a better draft year than Saad did (9 goals and 49 points in 60 games). Combining what the Pens did in the 2010 draft (picked 2 forwards with their highest 2 picks) and the Goligoski for Neal trade to that, it makes total sense on why the Pens picked Morrow over Saad there. We weren't flush deep in D prospects at that time, with only Despres and Samuelsson as notable D prospects for us at that point. Obviously it was a bad pick because of how they each turned out, but at the time, it wasn't as egregious as people like to suggest.
Right now, would I want us to have drafted Saad in 2011? Of course, but at the same time, I understand completely why they picked Morrow at the time. At the time of the draft, Morrow was a better prospect and actually filled a position of need in our prospect pool.
Right now, would I want us to have drafted Saad in 2011? Of course, but at the same time, I understand completely why they picked Morrow at the time. At the time of the draft, Morrow was a better prospect and actually filled a position of need in our prospect pool.
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DegenX
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Billy G? It would have been his first draft as player development 'coach'.
The Forsberg pick was inexcusable, it's as simple as that. I'm not even going to bother arguing that one. I'm happy with Pouliot, but there was no excuse to pick him over Forsberg. Forsberg was rated higher was was a consensus top-3 pick almost everywhere.
At the time of the draft, Saad was rated lower than Morrow. I really don't understand how you can be upset with us taking Morrow over Saad. If Saad weren't from Pittsburgh, people wouldn't be so pissed about it. The Forsberg pick was much worse than the Saad pick at the time.
That's incorrect. He was rated in the top 5 at the beginning of the season. His status dropped however. http://www2.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=47549
That's exactly my point, by the day of the draft, he wasn't a sure fire 1st rounder. He dropped like Esposito did. You can't solely fault the Pens for passing on him when he was ranked lower than the guy they actually drafted and every team passed on him at least once.
BlindWillyMcHurt
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He also dropped almost entirely because he was playing through injury much of the year. A bunch of scouts and whatnot couldn't figure why his skating took a step back... that was why.
This is something I'd HOPE any team that seriously considered drafting him would have known. But who can really tell. I'm sure DK will have an answer for us whenever it's convenient for him to half-invent one.
This is something I'd HOPE any team that seriously considered drafting him would have known. But who can really tell. I'm sure DK will have an answer for us whenever it's convenient for him to half-invent one.
cassius
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- Jul 23, 2004
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DK is the Pens puppet
Shifting the attention away from JR's colossal mistakes and diverting the attention to Shero. Beating a dead horse, etc..
Morehouse is pulling the strings I'm sure
Digging up Shero's draft history is a waste of time - it's one of the reasons why the guy got fired.
Shifting the attention away from JR's colossal mistakes and diverting the attention to Shero. Beating a dead horse, etc..
Morehouse is pulling the strings I'm sure
Digging up Shero's draft history is a waste of time - it's one of the reasons why the guy got fired.
Winger for Hire
Praise Beebo
Saad dropped because of injury; Espo dropped because of doubt in his skills (which turned out to be pretty spot on).
He had 1 colossal mistake: trading Despres for Lovejoy. And that really wasn't him, it sounds like it was Guerin that pushed that through. That's it. The Winnik trade was bad, but trading a 2nd for a rental isn't a "colossal mistake".
I do remember Esposito had such good totals because he played with Radulov in his first Q season, but I thought he also dealt with injuries in his draft year.
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