Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread: A New Error?

[KIRK]

Bylsma still owes him a round for that cup he gifted him.

Don't drag me into that discussion.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I honestly think Zucker has been worse than Geno this year...for everyone shitting on G, Zucker hasn’t done anything well...if you’re snakebit scoring, and you can’t play make, at least use your hustle and forecheck and back check hard and try to get the puck back...he doesn’t even do that...so dull and passive

That goal off the end boards earlier this year really showed what you can get from Zucker. He has 80th-90th percentile quickness and hands and he's twitchy/buzzy. When you put those together you see how he can generate chances and goal in close to the goal. I also think he's good defensively.

Whether he really "gets" offensive hockey or has the hockey IQ to make the right plays and go to the right places within the offensive zone...I've yet to see it. He's passing when he should hold the puck and vice-versa. He isn't in the right spaces or doesn't move the puck to the right spaces. He's overly deferring to Geno which again is also a Geno problem.

 

[KIRK]

The only reason I’m not 100% against Zucker at this point is because he hasn’t had a steady assignment nor a complete season. I’m still willing to give him a chance, but he rarely even shows flashes of brilliance. Maybe it’s difficult playing with Malkin and it takes more time than normal (like Crosby), who knows.

'
I keep asking (and nobody answers) if there's ever been a Malkin line that only became good over time.

Seems to me the prerequisite for the good ones has been instant chemistry and some results to boot. Doesn't guarantee the line will endure, but for the life of me, I can't think of a Malkin line that was this putrid and magically became good after a month or two.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Who was on Malkin's other wing in 2011-2012?

Kunitz was the partner. Neal was the passenger.

That said, your characterization of Neal as a partner and assumption that there's ever been a good Malkin line that didn't show instant chemistry does give me insight to your perspective on this subject, so best that we just agree to disagree and call it a day.

Jokinen-Malkin-Neal did not gel immediately, which is part of the reason why I brought up the early season slump Malkin had in 2013-14.

He went on to have 72 points in 60 games. Neal had 61 points in 59 games. Jokinen had one of the best seasons of his career with 57 points.

Malkin and that line stunk through November because of his draught. They were potent afterward.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

'
I keep asking (and nobody answers) if there's ever been a Malkin line that only became good over time.

Seems to me the prerequisite for the good ones has been instant chemistry and some results to boot. Doesn't guarantee the line will endure, but for the life of me, I can't think of a Malkin line that was this putrid and magically became good after a month or two.

I could be wrong, and I likely am because I just don’t remember, but didn’t chemistry with Hagelin take time?

 

[KIRK]

That goal off the end boards earlier this year really showed what you can get from Zucker. He has 80th-90th percentile quickness and hands and he's twitchy/buzzy. When you put those together you see how he can generate chances and goal in close to the goal. I also think he's good defensively.

Whether he really "gets" offensive hockey or has the hockey IQ to make the right plays and go to the right places within the offensive zone...I've yet to see it. He's passing when he should hold the puck and vice-versa. He isn't in the right spaces or doesn't move the puck to the right spaces. He's overly deferring to Geno which again is also a Geno problem.

Compare how Geno and Kapanen work together to how Geno and Zucker work together. You can see the instant chemistry with Geno and Kapanen. Geno and Zucker look like they're playing on different planets.

As I keep saying, sometimes it's as simple as admitting that two guys just don't work together. Doesn't necessarily mean that either player is bad or more blameworthy or whatever. Sometimes, it's just the way it is. It takes a smart coach to recognize, accept, and adapt to that, and a smart GM to step in with a trade when the coach won't.

I could be wrong, and I likely am because I just don’t remember, but didn’t chemistry with Hagelin take time?

The duo, yes. But, Hagelin-Malkin-Hornqvist was instant chemistry.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Compare how Geno and Kapanen work together to how Geno and Zucker work together. You can see the instant chemistry with Geno and Kapanen. Geno and Zucker look like they're playing on different planets.

As I keep saying, sometimes it's as simple as admitting that two guys just don't work together. Doesn't necessarily mean that either player is bad or more blameworthy or whatever. Sometimes, it's just the way it is. It takes a smart coach to recognize, accept, and adapt to that, and a smart GM to step in with a trade when the coach won't.

If BART wasn't back and looking good and Sully's favorite ever, Tanev would be with Malkin right now.

 

[Andy99]

That goal off the end boards earlier this year really showed what you can get from Zucker. He has 80th-90th percentile quickness and hands and he's twitchy/buzzy. When you put those together you see how he can generate chances and goal in close to the goal. I also think he's good defensively.

Whether he really "gets" offensive hockey or has the hockey IQ to make the right plays and go to the right places within the offensive zone...I've yet to see it. He's passing when he should hold the puck and vice-versa. He isn't in the right spaces or doesn't move the puck to the right spaces. He's overly deferring to Geno which again is also a Geno problem.

this is probably right...even last year, I noticed he was good on goals in tight around the net...that’s why I think he should play with Sid...he’s probably doing things out there to accommodate G’s style, which is not making the line successful...and G does not play behind the net a lot, and when G’s not shooting a lot, there won’t be garbage around the net to clean up...when I watch Zucker, I don’t see a really skilled player...but I also don’t see a guy who uses his quickness either to make things happen, even defensively, like Tanev does...if he could be a slightly more skilled Tanev, that’d be great but I think he plays in the no mans land of a rather vanilla solid defensive forward, which to me screams third line player...

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I don't know. Jesse suggested otherwise today about Zucker.

So, keep playing him with Malkin then, because even though it hasn't worked, has shown no potential to work, and won't work, it still could work, even though there's never been a good Malkin line that didn't show immediate chemistry?

I think that's why people are talking trade. He's only useful for Sid when Jake is hurt. BART is set. Taking him off L2 would be addition by subtraction. Ergo, 4th line or trade chip along with one of Dumo/Pets to augment the mix on L2, address goaltending (if need be), and tweak the other line in the bottom 6.

I mean, it's feasible to make 1 move . . . one of Dumo or Pets for a L2 LW, in which case Zucker-McCann could be 2/3 of a nice line.

That said, if the only options are Zucker on L2 LW or Zucker traded, the latter is clearly preferable.

Yeah and I understand what you mean, but it seems like such a waste to trade a good player that once looked pretty good here so soon.

I think it's more so on our line up situation at the moment. The 'x' stats don't look good for the line so while it's ok right now (and we don't have a lot of good options at the moment).

If say we moved Dumo for a LW for L2 we could have:

Jake-Sid-Rust / Trade-Malkin-Kapanen
Zucker-McCann-Sceviour / ZAR-Blueger-Tanev

It'd be cap compliant and good forward depth for the eventual injuries.

Yea no I don’t necessarily disagree, but I’m just saying that the guy isn’t killing us by any means.

On roster moves: for sure. I mean my perfect world moves would be to bring in a 2LW and a 3C via McCann and Dumoulin (maybe that means McCann is your 2LW), and then play Zucker with the 3C and push BART to the 4th line.

Looks like sound logic right now, but I think being the opposite of JR and slow to act could be a nice thing for once too. We could be looking to move all these guys for futures if things go south in a month too, or Zucker could find his groove if someone goes down and be our best performing winger in a month. Ya never know with this team

 

[The Grim Reaper]

The duo, yes. But, Hagelin-Malkin-Hornqvist was instant chemistry.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Anything in WB? Don’t really get to follow them since leaving.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I just don't get the panic or urgency or whatever is prompting this discussion. Could Zucker-Malkin-Kapanen get better production wise? Absolutely.

But it's not a black hole. Malkin's had lines that have been atrocious in all areas. This is not one of them. It's OK. It's not outstanding. But it's OK. Hence my willing to be patient when others aren't.

If, in a couple more weeks, it's still underwhelming, then I think you explore shaking things up. Not now. Not when they've played three games in 13 days in an already disjointed season.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

I just don't get the panic or urgency or whatever is prompting this discussion. Could Zucker-Malkin-Kapanen get better production wise? Absolutely.

But it's not a black hole. Malkin's had lines that have been atrocious in all areas. This is not one of them. It's OK. It's not outstanding. But it's OK. Hence my willing to be patient when others aren't.

If, in a couple more weeks, it's still underwhelming, then I think you explore shaking things up. Not now. Not when they've played three games in 13 days in an already disjointed season.

I haven’t given up on Zucker, but I have certainly given up on Zucker with Malkin. Some of the worst chemistry I’ve ever seen. I think Malkin worked better with Tanner Glass.

 

[KIRK]

Jokinen-Malkin-Neal did not gel immediately, which is part of the reason why I brought up the early season slump Malkin had in 2013-14.

He went on to have 72 points in 60 games. Neal had 61 points in 59 games. Jokinen had one of the best seasons of his career with 57 points.

Malkin and that line stunk through November because of his draught. They were potent afterward.

You sure Jokinen-Malkin-Neal was a thing every game between November 9 and November 22?

I only ask because looking at game logs, Malkin assisted on ES goals by Brain Gibbons and Beau Bennett during that period.

EDIT: The Jokinen-Malkin-Neal line did start lighting things up in that November 22 game. I don't think they were together the moment Neal returned, but even if they had been, it was the 7th game since Neal returned.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

'
I keep asking (and nobody answers) if there's ever been a Malkin line that only became good over time.

Seems to me the prerequisite for the good ones has been instant chemistry and some results to boot. Doesn't guarantee the line will endure, but for the life of me, I can't think of a Malkin line that was this putrid and magically became good after a month or two.

The answer is no. Does anybody remember when Kunitz and Neal were put with him? Yikes. Or any version of the Malone lines. Even when he played wing with Staal. They looked dangerous almost instantly. I'm not saying lines don't get better over time, of course they do. But when you look lost with Malkin you stay lost. 15 years of evidence.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

I had completely forgotten Jussi Jokinen was on this team at one point. Those were some Pens years I’d prefer to forget.

 

[KIRK]

If BART wasn't back and looking good and Sully's favorite ever, Tanev would be with Malkin right now.

I doubt that. He put Tanev with Malkin in a game earlier this season. Replaced Zucker if memory serves. Showed some chemistry, and that was it . . . Zucker back with Malkin the following game.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

I doubt that. He put Tanev with Malkin in a game earlier this season. Replaced Zucker if memory serves. Showed some chemistry, and that was it . . . Zucker back with Malkin the following game.

Plus Tanev and Blueger is one of the few steady things on this team of late. ZAR might have even elevated that third line.

 

[KIRK]

The answer is no. Does anybody remember when Kunitz and Neal were put with him? Yikes. Or any version of the Malone lines. Even when he played wing with Staal. They looked dangerous almost instantly. I'm not saying lines don't get better over time, of course they do. But when you look lost with Malkin you stay lost. 15 years of evidence.

Jokinen-Malkin-Neal MIGHT be the closest, but when Malkin is assisting on ES goals from Gibbons and Rust between November 9 and November 22 2013, there's some question as to when after Neal returned from injury that line became a permanent thing.

I just can't think of a situation where a Malkin line suddenly developed chemistry. I suppose you could say it was hit and miss with Malkin and Hornqvist until they got Hagelin, but there you could see the instant chemistry. So . . .

Look, it is what it is until Hextall intervenes with a trade (was going to add 'or until Sully wakes up and tries anything like double shifting with the 4th line or putting Iceburgh or Lafferty or Sceviour with him and Kapanen just to mix it up', but that's not happening).

 

[KIRK]

Plus Tanev and Blueger is one of the few steady things on this team of late. ZAR might have even elevated that third line.

True.

Of course it will be all for naught when the games matter most if Malkin also isn't going.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

I had completely forgotten Jussi Jokinen was on this team at one point. Those were some Pens years I’d prefer to forget.

Don't forget Ponikarovsky, Spaling, Perron etc....anybody remember Blake Comeau? Remember when Malkin yelled at him on the bench in 2015 for deferring too much against the Flyers? Man, Zucker has shades of Comeau in that regard.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

The answer is no. Does anybody remember when Kunitz and Neal were put with him? Yikes. Or any version of the Malone lines. Even when he played wing with Staal. They looked dangerous almost instantly. I'm not saying lines don't get better over time, of course they do. But when you look lost with Malkin you stay lost. 15 years of evidence.

Malkin played with Kunitz and Neal 40% of the 2011-2012 season, where Malkin put up 50 goals and 109 points. Winning the Art Ross, Hart, and Ted Lindsay trophy.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

Malkin played with Kunitz and Neal 40% of the 2011-2012 season, where Malkin put up 50 goals and 109 points. Winning the Art Ross, Hart, and Ted Lindsay trophy.

Yeah, and I remember when they were put together. They looked dangerous immediately. They just got eachother as players and everyone had a role. Malkin was comfortable enough with them that he became a shooter, and that's the most dangerous version of Geno.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

You sure Jokinen-Malkin-Neal was a thing between November 9 and November 22?

I only ask because looking at game logs, Malkin assisted on ES goals by Brain Gibbons and Beau Bennett during that period.

Neal returned Nov. 9.
Here's the Natural Stat Trick game log, complete with linemates: Evgeni Malkin - Game Log - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick

11/9/13 - Malkin played 11:22 even strength with Neal, 9:16 with Jokinen, 3:46 with Bennett.
11/13/13 - 10:49 with Neal, 9:34 with Jokinen, a little over a minute with Sid and Kunitz.
11/15/13 - 8:42 with Jokinen, 8:13 with Neal, 2:36 with Dupuis.
11/16/13 - 9:00 with Neal, 8:07 with Jokinen
11/18/13 - 12:34 with Neal, 10:55 with Dupuis. Malkin played 0:48 with Gibbons, and Gibbons scored a goal on that shift.
11/20/13 - 10:40 with Neal and Dupuis. Malkin played 0:55 with Bennett. Bennett scored a goal.
11/22/13 - 10:34 with Neal, 6:31 with Dupuis, 3:55 with Jokinen. Neal and Jokinen assisted on Malkin's second period goal, which finally ended his goalless skid.

EDIT: They were largely together as a trio after that brief separation on 11/18 and 11/20. They reunited midway through 11/22 and played a lot from then on out.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Neal returned Nov. 9.
Here's the Natural Stat Trick game log, complete with linemates: Evgeni Malkin - Game Log - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick

11/9/13 - Malkin played 11:22 even strength with Neal, 9:16 with Jokinen, 3:46 with Bennett.
11/13/13 - 10:49 with Neal, 9:34 with Jokinen, a little over a minute with Sid and Kunitz.
11/15/13 - 8:42 with Jokinen, 8:13 with Neal, 2:36 with Dupuis.
11/16/13 - 9:00 with Neal, 8:07 with Jokinen
11/18/13 - 12:34 with Neal, 10:55 with Dupuis. Malkin played 0:48 with Gibbons, and Gibbons scored a goal on that shift.
11/20/13 - 10:40 with Neal and Dupuis. Malkin played 0:55 with Bennett. Bennett scored a goal.
11/22/13 - 10:34 with Neal, 6:31 with Dupuis, 3:55 with Jokinen. Neal and Jokinen assisted on Malkin's second period goal, which finally ended his goalless skid.

That’s a name and draft pick I won’t miss. Didn’t he come from some west coast roller hockey league or some shit?