Post-Game Talk: Pittsburgh Penguins at New York Rangers - March 14

[Pizza]

He doesn't have more to give. He's given this team every last bit of his body and soul, from playing through injuries, to growing as a person and a player, to making every player he's ever hit the ice with better. He's one of the very few wingers capable of carrying his own centers. He's even fought when asked.

No, he's not Alex Ovechkin. He was absolutely never going to be. But what he is, is top 25 at his position, a player that possesses a unique set of skills that nobody else in the NHL replicates, and he makes teammates better.

If you expected more than that when he was drafted 8 years ago, that's a problem with your expectations, not a problem with Kreider.

Maybe my expectations were too high. Not gonna deny that. I'm always guilty of dreaming the best for any Rangers player. But then you watch him last night and you see the dream made real. On any given night he's the oppositions worst version of a hockey nightmare. An absolute terror. It's just not reasonable to expect those numbers on a regular basis. Putting this year aside, of course, it's the visible effort that imo had been missing sometimes. But maybe that's just me. I love this guy as a player. To me, his shot, passing, stick handling even hockey sense all go underrated. Obviously, players can't control what goes in the net on a nightly basis. But they can control the effort and hustle. I think in those areas moving forward Kreider could be a bit more consistent is all.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

I remember during a game a few years ago some random Islanders fan was making fun of this kid in the stands for having a Jesper Fast jersey. "Lol why would you spend money on that?"

Now Fast is one of our captains and I laugh in your face random Islanders fan.

What a joke, has he ever been to one of his own team's games? More Martin, Clutterbuck and Czikas jerseys than anyone else.

 

[Pizza]

Zibanejad was the best center in last night’s game...Crosby and Malkin need to be more consistent.

;-) (chuckles)

 

[Pizza]

He played with a blood clot in his neck which could have ended his career...slacker.

Ok, you're killing me here. I told my wife you guys are picking on me a little. She's calling cyberbullying on ya'll, lol.

 

[vladmyir111]

Anyone who’s played the position knows that if you overcompensate too hard on your push, especially into the RVH, you can easily knock the net off.

That and when you complete the slide over you shrug your shoulder up to get large in the net in case the shot is high. That call was complete bullshit. He even did the same exact move a few minutes earlier when he got scored on the wrap around.

 

[Pizza]

Not a problem. You’ve always been a respectful poster. I have a problem with the label ‘inconsistent’z, especially in regards to Kreider. There so many factors that can go into a players production. I understand that when you watch a game last night, you get greedy. You want that all the time. I do think that for both Kreider and Zibanejad, last night could be a turning point, where each player realizes it falls on their respective shoulders, and yes, they can handle. It was amazing to watch them be the best players on the ice and play at an elite level against that opponent.

I'm pretty sure there are those on this board that would....disagree with that assessment. But thanks all the same. I try to be respectful. Most of the time. But I have experienced my blood boiling over comments directed at certain prospects and players. It's pretty funny in the rear view as I've been dead wrong on so many times. And my hockey acumen pales next to so many here.

As for last night, I agree. I think these guys were laying down a marker. At least I hope so.

Just my opinion, but I think Kreider is a unique player in this league. Many of those things were on display last night. Watching the game I remember a story my Father told me about a Rangers game he had seen after the war. He was no regular hockey fan. Knew very little about the game. The Giants of Base Ball were his passion. But one of his father's customers had some tickets and he and a friend got to see the Rangers vs Canadiens with great seats down close to the ice. All he remembered was Rocket Richard. The way he just took over the game and flew around the ice. Eyes blazing. Raising havoc. He remembered the Rangers players screaming "here he comes!!!"

I have to say and I know some will laugh but that's what Kreider can do. That's what I saw last night.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

I'm pretty sure there are those on this board that would....disagree with that assessment. But thanks all the same. I try to be respectful. Most of the time. But I have experienced my blood boiling over comments directed at certain prospects and players. It's pretty funny in the rear view as I've been dead wrong on so many times. And my hockey acumen pales next to so many here.

As for last night, I agree. I think these guys were laying down a marker. At least I hope so.

Just my opinion, but I think Kreider is a unique player in this league. Many of those things were on display last night. Watching the game I remember a story my Father told me about a Rangers game he had seen after the war. He was no regular hockey fan. Knew very little about the game. The Giants of Base Ball were his passion. But one of his father's customers had some tickets and he and a friend got to see the Rangers vs Canadiens with great seats down close to the ice. All he remembered was Rocket Richard. The way he just took over the game and flew around the ice. Eyes blazing. Raising havoc. He remembered the Rangers players screaming "here he comes!!!"

I have to say and I know some will laugh but that's what Kreider can do. That's what I saw last night.

It's getting really hard to have a discussion these days.

 

[Ghost of jas]

Ok, you're killing me here. I told my wife you guys are picking on me a little. She's calling cyberbullying on ya'll, lol.

Actually, that's not directed at you. There are posters that far more critical of Kreider than you were in your post. I understand for some in this fanbase, there will always be the need to see more from Kreider. Some people seem to overlook what he does bring.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

No way, that net was not pushed off.... anyone that thinks that is just rooting too hard for the tank

Yet my post hsitory is literally loaded with posts saying I'm fine with it if they fail to tank even though I hope we get a top prospect this year.

Maybe, just MAYBE I see visual evidence that the guy purposely shrugged the net off its moorings...bc he did.

Now if someone wants to argue the NHL's history of not calling this against other players, show me that evidence and I'll listen. nobody has done that (of course). So all I can say is, here's the rule, the guy broke it, the refs made the call you're supposed to, I loved beating the Pens and wish they'd have done it in regulation.

 

[Levitate]

I think with Kreider, and I've said this before, it really is not an effort thing. He's not "being lazy", he's not slacking, the reality is just that over a long long season there are stretches when the game doesn't come as easy as it does during other stretches and no amount of effort and running around on the ice is going to make that better. IMO it's about how you are seeing and processing the game, not how hard you're trying, and sometimes you just have stretches where things aren't coming easy and you end up watching the play more because you're not processing things as easily.

It's a poor comparison but in sports I've played, I've certainly had games where everything was clicking great and then I've had games where I was trying to play hard but everything just seemed to be going against me and I read things wrong and it wasn't that I wasn't trying but I wasn't processing things well.

 

[romba]

It's getting really hard to have a discussion these days.

C’mon, I don’t think @Pizza was trying to say what you’re implying because that would be nutso and he’s pretty grounded. More like he thinks CK can be Richard-lite, dominate games using a physical and speed based game, and consistently put points up closer to a ppg. Not become one of the greatest players of all time. Though if you look at fancy stats CK is already performing at an elite level possession-wise.

 

[aufheben]

I think with Kreider, and I've said this before, it really is not an effort thing. He's not "being lazy", he's not slacking, the reality is just that over a long long season there are stretches when the game doesn't come as easy as it does during other stretches and no amount of effort and running around on the ice is going to make that better. IMO it's about how you are seeing and processing the game, not how hard you're trying, and sometimes you just have stretches where things aren't coming easy and you end up watching the play more because you're not processing things as easily.

It's a poor comparison but in sports I've played, I've certainly had games where everything was clicking great and then I've had games where I was trying to play hard but everything just seemed to be going against me and I read things wrong and it wasn't that I wasn't trying but I wasn't processing things well.

IMO, the thing with Kreider is, even when it doesn't look like he's very active, he is still doing all the "little things", while always a tough player for defensemen to handle. That all adds up to more zone time, more shots for/less shots against, etc.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

C’mon, I don’t think @Pizza was trying to say what you’re implying because that would be nutso and he’s pretty grounded. More like he thinks CK can be Richard-lite, dominate games using a physical and speed based game, and consistently put points up closer to a ppg. Not become one of the greatest players of all time. Though if you look at fancy stats CK is already performing at an elite level possession-wise.

It’s not just him, and it’s not just about Kreider. A lot of these threads start heading into fairy tale land. It’s odd.

By the way, flakey doesn’t necessarily mean lazy.

Didn’t Kreider see a sports psychologist his big contract year, and that didn’t help to much because he played well under expectations and needed a bridge deal?

Look just because he’s a big guy doesn’t mean he can’t have anxiety or other similar issues that make him über streaky to say the least, way off from the typical cold streaks other players with his talent level have.

 

[Ghost of jas]

IMO, the thing with Kreider is, even when it doesn't look like he's very active, he is still doing all the "little things", while always a tough player for defensemen to handle. That all adds up to more zone time, more shots for/less shots against, etc.

Hot take...Kreider is more valuable to the Rangers than any package they’d get back from trading him.

 

[aufheben]

Hot take...Kreider is more valuable to the Rangers than any package they’d get back from trading him.

Never know. Draisaitl is a future superstar, so Chia should be putting him on the block over the summer.

 

[Pizza]

It’s not just him, and it’s not just about Kreider. A lot of these threads start heading into fairy tale land. It’s odd.

By the way, flakey doesn’t necessarily mean lazy.

Didn’t Kreider see a sports psychologist his big contract year, and that didn’t help to much because he played well under expectations and needed a bridge deal?

Look just because he’s a big guy doesn’t mean he can’t have anxiety or other similar issues that make him über streaky to say the least, way off from the typical cold streaks other players with his talent level have.

What exactly are you taking exception to Reggie? Honestly curious.

 

[Pizza]

IMO, the thing with Kreider is, even when it doesn't look like he's very active, he is still doing all the "little things", while always a tough player for defensemen to handle. That all adds up to more zone time, more shots for/less shots against, etc.

Wow. Gotta say I'm feeling a bit inadequate right now, but I don't mind looking out of step. Have not a clue how to read this data. An honest question, does this basically say Kreider is an effective player?

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

What exactly are you taking exception to Reggie? Honestly curious.

The Rocket comparison.

And not just with you, but it's hard to have hockey talk these day with some of the new stats and odd man crushes.

 

[Levitate]

Wow. Gotta say I'm feeling a bit inadequate right now, but I don't mind looking out of step. Have not a clue how to read this data. An honest question, does this basically say Kreider is an effective player?

The top one should be fairly self explanatory as it's comparing Kreider's stats to the average 1st line winger stats. The higher the bars the better, so we can see that with slightly less than average 1st line winger icetime, Kreider is exceeding the expected goals, shot generation, and shot suppression stats for a first line winger, and about on par with the expected 1st assist stats. Basically, he's a good first line winger.

The second bunch of charts is basically comparing shot rates with him on the ice versus off the ice. The first pair of red/blue charts is comparing how many unblocked shots the Rangers take with him on the ice versus off. In this case I believe red is "better" (more shots), so we can see that they appear to get more shots on net from closer to the net while he's on the ice than when he's off the ice.
The second pair of red/blue charts below that is comparing how many unblocked shots the Rangers give up, this time with blue being better or lack of red being better. They appear to give up fewer shots from directly in front of the net when he's on the ice, though it's more muddled.

Same kind of deal with the other color charts except on PP and PK (and he doesn't PK). They appear to get more shots from directly in front of the net while he's on the PP than when he's not.

Overall it's meant to show that he's good at generating quality scoring chances and preventing them (one way or another) when he's on the ice.

 

[Pizza]

The top one should be fairly self explanatory as it's comparing Kreider's stats to the average 1st line winger stats. The higher the bars the better, so we can see that with slightly less than average 1st line winger icetime, Kreider is exceeding the expected goals, shot generation, and shot suppression stats for a first line winger, and about on par with the expected 1st assist stats. Basically, he's a good first line winger.

The second bunch of charts is basically comparing shot rates with him on the ice versus off the ice. The first pair of red/blue charts is comparing how many unblocked shots the Rangers take with him on the ice versus off. In this case I believe red is "better" (more shots), so we can see that they appear to get more shots on net from closer to the net while he's on the ice than when he's off the ice.
The second pair of red/blue charts below that is comparing how many unblocked shots the Rangers give up, this time with blue being better or lack of red being better. They appear to give up fewer shots from directly in front of the net when he's on the ice, though it's more muddled.

Same kind of deal with the other color charts except on PP and PK (and he doesn't PK). They appear to get more shots from directly in front of the net while he's on the PP than when he's not.

Overall it's meant to show that he's good at generating quality scoring chances and preventing them (one way or another) when he's on the ice.

Thanks, Lev.

 

[Pizza]

The Rocket comparison.

And not just with you, but it's hard to have hockey talk these day with some of the new stats and odd man crushes.

Ok. Not much a stats guy myself actually. As to the Rocket comparison: Everything I've ever heard or seen about Richard's game jibes with what my Father described. I am not for a single moment saying that Kreider will dominate the NHL today the way Richard did for many years. No way. I am saying that when Kreider is playing at his absolute best, the way he was the other night, it brings that description of my father to mind. That's all. And I would love to see more of what Kreider showed us the other night on a more regular basis. If that's a "man crush" so be it.

 

[Ghost of jas]

The top one should be fairly self explanatory as it's comparing Kreider's stats to the average 1st line winger stats. The higher the bars the better, so we can see that with slightly less than average 1st line winger icetime, Kreider is exceeding the expected goals, shot generation, and shot suppression stats for a first line winger, and about on par with the expected 1st assist stats. Basically, he's a good first line winger.

The second bunch of charts is basically comparing shot rates with him on the ice versus off the ice. The first pair of red/blue charts is comparing how many unblocked shots the Rangers take with him on the ice versus off. In this case I believe red is "better" (more shots), so we can see that they appear to get more shots on net from closer to the net while he's on the ice than when he's off the ice.
The second pair of red/blue charts below that is comparing how many unblocked shots the Rangers give up, this time with blue being better or lack of red being better. They appear to give up fewer shots from directly in front of the net when he's on the ice, though it's more muddled.

Same kind of deal with the other color charts except on PP and PK (and he doesn't PK). They appear to get more shots from directly in front of the net while he's on the PP than when he's not.

Overall it's meant to show that he's good at generating quality scoring chances and preventing them (one way or another) when he's on the ice.

And all of this is why I would expect an analytics junkie like Chayka to be more willing to part with a top 10 pick fro Kreider than someone like Chiarelli.

It’s also why I believe Kreider is more valuable to the Rangers than any package they’d get back for him in a trade.

 

[aufheben]

Wow. Gotta say I'm feeling a bit inadequate right now, but I don't mind looking out of step. Have not a clue how to read this data. An honest question, does this basically say Kreider is an effective player?

It’s not your fault I didn’t explain them at all.

Anyway, Levitate summed it up perfectly.

 

[Ghost of jas]

The top one should be fairly self explanatory as it's comparing Kreider's stats to the average 1st line winger stats. The higher the bars the better, so we can see that with slightly less than average 1st line winger icetime, Kreider is exceeding the expected goals, shot generation, and shot suppression stats for a first line winger, and about on par with the expected 1st assist stats. Basically, he's a good first line winger.

The second bunch of charts is basically comparing shot rates with him on the ice versus off the ice. The first pair of red/blue charts is comparing how many unblocked shots the Rangers take with him on the ice versus off. In this case I believe red is "better" (more shots), so we can see that they appear to get more shots on net from closer to the net while he's on the ice than when he's off the ice.
The second pair of red/blue charts below that is comparing how many unblocked shots the Rangers give up, this time with blue being better or lack of red being better. They appear to give up fewer shots from directly in front of the net when he's on the ice, though it's more muddled.

Same kind of deal with the other color charts except on PP and PK (and he doesn't PK). They appear to get more shots from directly in front of the net while he's on the PP than when he's not.

Overall it's meant to show that he's good at generating quality scoring chances and preventing them (one way or another) when he's on the ice.

Great recap, Lev. And yet his critics will still call him a 2nd liner and overrated.

 

[Pizza]

It’s not your fault I didn’t explain them at all.

Anyway, Levitate summed it up perfectly.

Thanks man.