Proposal: PIT-CGY: Brouwer for Fleury

[Dipsy Doodle]

By doing what, leading us to Nolan Patrick? So, sure, Fleury will improve the Flames in a roundabout way

Fleury's stunk so far this year, but over the past 6 seasons he's one of the most consistent #1s in the league. Never elite, but regularly a middle of the pack starter while getting more starts than just about everyone.

Over that period, he's never had a GAA over 2.39 or a SV% lower than .913. Very few goalies can say that.

 

[TorstenFrings]

For which party does this even make sense?

Calgary wouldn't be addressing their goalie issue right now, when they are toast for the season anyway.

Pittsburgh needs Brouwer like a hole in the head.

Fleury, as Flames fans won't tire to point out, has a no trade clause. High odds are Clagary is a no go on that.

Maybe if we are ignoring that last part about MAF, then something around a Elliot+ swap would be closer, but all in all it seems a dead end.

 

[JTG]

Pens really should be looking for draft pick deals.

 

[Halla]

So much this. I'd rather just go trade Fleury for a goalie straight up. The Pens really only need a skilled top-9 winger and Brouwer isn't that. The Pens also probably won't have to buy out Fleury.

niemi could be had. what other teams are in the market for a goalie with a high salary and term besides maybe dallas?

teams are gonna realize pittsburgh will be desperate to move fleury (to not lose murray in the exp. draft) and the return will be meager

 

[TheMurrlinWall]

Yeah, that sounds plausible. Hey, we gave you a NMC but we want you to waive it to go to an expansion team instead of taking a nice payout and a chance to sign wherever you wish. The only people remotely believing that hogwash is dillusional Pens fans. Not happening.

I guess we'll just have to see what happens since there's no way to prove anything one way or another. Thanks for being so respectful though, I really appreciate it.

 

[TheMurrlinWall]

Yeah, that sounds plausible. Hey, we gave you a NMC but we want you to waive it to go to an expansion team instead of taking a nice payout and a chance to sign wherever you wish. The only people remotely believing that hogwash is dillusional Pens fans. Not happening.

I guess we'll just have to see what happens since there's no way to prove anything one way or another. Thanks for being so respectful though, I really appreciate it.

 

[PensandCaps]

heck no, if brouwer was at 2 yrs. yes. but 4yrs? no way.

 

[Empoleon8771]

niemi could be had. what other teams are in the market for a goalie with a high salary and term besides maybe dallas?

teams are gonna realize pittsburgh will be desperate to move fleury (to not lose murray in the exp. draft) and the return will be meager

I'm not expecting a huge return, but I don't see any sort of justification for why the Penguins couldn't trade him. I expect him to get moved for another goalie and a 2nd or 3rd, that's about it. I think Dallas, Carolina, Calgary, Philly, NYI, Vancouver, and Arizona would have varying levels of interest in him, with Dallas, Carolina and Calgary being the big players there.

 

[Riptide]

After the season, assuming no goaltenders in the flames' system show they're worth protecting. From the pens POV, I guess Brouwer (4.5 x 3) looks better than Fleury's dead cap ($1,916,667 x 4) after buying him out.

The odds of Pittsburgh buying out MAF are very slim. Yes it's an option, but realistically, it'll never happen. I would be large sums on Murray getting traded before MAF gets bought out.

As for that move... while Brouwer doesn't exactly fit our mold, I wouldn't turn it down.

 

[Riptide]

Again, Johnson is doing just fine now thanks.

Going for another lottery pick are we?

 

[Riptide]

Bishop is an UFA and would only cost the Flames money and cap space this summer. They're not trading for a goalie now when the problem is very clearly the defense and to some extent, Elliott. But with Johnson's stealing the starting role and putting up some good numbers, and the defense looking a little better, there's no reason to rush at the moment.

Sure - if you like the idea of signing him to a 7x7m contract.

 

[Dertell]

Bishop is an UFA and would only cost the Flames money and cap space this summer.

"Only" cost something like 7x7.

They're not trading for a goalie now when the problem is very clearly the defense and to some extent, Elliott.

The defense that's 9th in the league at suppressing shots, 16th with expected goals?
Merely "to some extent" it's the guy with the same save% as Hiller's last year?

there's no reason to rush at the moment.

This thread is about "after the season".

Anyway, pretty much a guarantee Fleury would do worse in Calgary than even Elliott.

There's a very real chance Fleury in Calgary could come close to the numbers he had in his rookie season when the scoring was up and the penguins were a tanking team.

Just like how the latter was a product of Hitchcock, the former's turnaround the last couple of seasons was clearly the result of Johnston.

Hitchcock's god****ing malvelous system of wonders somehow has a worse ES SV% than the flames' right now. Fleury went .917 (.928 ES) in 35 games after Johnson was fired last year, which is pretty good.

I'm not buying this idea system and defense has a gigantic effect on save%. Sometime, they're good. Sometime, they suck.

Fleury's an aging, declining, mentally weak goalie

Aging, yes. Declining? His last two years were his best two seasons.

 

[Riptide]

Yes, 4 wins of the last five and two shutouts for a guy who has never had a chance to be tried as a starter is bad.

Fleury is washed up, costs too much, and would make Calgary an even bigger tire fire. We don't need him, we don't need his contract, and we don't need a goalie. If we do need a goalie, there's a very good one set to hit UFA that Fleur couldn't even hold the jock of.

Johnson has only played more than 27 games once in his entire career (last season). He's a career backup riding a hot streak. But hey, feel free to bet your season on him - it's no skin off my back.

By doing what, leading us to Nolan Patrick? So, sure, Fleury will improve the Flames in a roundabout way

You don't need MAF for that, you have Johnson and Elliot!

 

[East Coast Icestyle]

Going for another lottery pick are we?

6-3-1, 922 save percentage, 2.08 gaa, 2 shutouts.

Career 56-33-12, 917, 2.36 gaa and 6 shutouts.

Yeah, he's a real tank job.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Going for another lottery pick are we?

Johnson is 6-3-1 in ten starts with .922 and 2.08 GAA and has established himself as top goaltender unless Elliott gets his mojo back.

Fleury, despite playing with Malkin Kessell Crosby Letang Bonino etc is 6-4-3 with .907 and 3.19 GAA. I fail to see what Fleury brings that Elliott doesn't as historically Elliott is the signficiantly better goalie and presently Johnson is the significantly better goalie.

 

[Riptide]

6-3-1, 922 save percentage, 2.08 gaa, 2 shutouts.

Career 56-33-12, 917, 2.36 gaa and 6 shutouts.

Yeah, he's a real tank job.

There's a reason why he hasn't started more than 30 games in a season until last year (when he was on one of the worst teams in the league). Watch him for more than 10 games.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Johnson is 6-3-1 in ten starts with .922 and 2.08 GAA and has established himself as top goaltender unless Elliott gets his mojo back.

Fleury, despite playing with Malkin Kessell Crosby Letang Bonino etc is 6-4-3 with .907 and 3.19 GAA

How is playing with good forwards at all relevant to his save%? And why are we only looking at a 13 game sample size all of a sudden?

 

[East Coast Icestyle]

There's a reason why he hasn't started more than 30 games in a season until last year (when he was on one of the worst teams in the league). Watch him for more than 10 games.

Yup, Henrik Lundqvist.

He's at the age that Bishop, Talbot, etc got their chance.

Stop being so cynical just to try to prove a point. We don't need Fleury.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

How is playing with good forwards at all relevant to his save%?

Goal support is the only reason Fluery's record isn't worse than Elliott's.

And why are we only looking at a 13 game sample size all of a sudden?

Okay let's look at a sample since 2011:

Elliott - .922 / 2.11 GAA
Fluery - .917 / 2.38 GAA

So if the 10/13 game samples for these two goalies don't matter why exactly do we want MAF over ELliott?

Oh yeah, we don't.

There's a reason why he hasn't started more than 30 games in a season until last year (when he was on one of the worst teams in the league). Watch him for more than 10 games.

Um he played 45+ games last year where "one of the worst teams in the league" as you yourself proclaim played at a 94 point pace with him in net.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yup, Henrik Lundqvist

Johnson hasn't even played in the Rangers organization since 2012. He has gone from the Rangers to Coyotes to Bruins to Islanders to Sabres to Flames. To act like he hasn't played in more than 30 games in a season is due to Lundqvist is just hilariously false.

Johnson is in the same boat as Greiss is, he's a guy who can put up starter numbers over half a season, but he's not someone you actually rely on to be your starting goalie. If he was actually a starting goalie, he wouldn't be on his 6th team in 6 years.

Goal support is the only reason Fluery's record isn't worse than Elliott's.

I mean, that's just flat out untrue because Fleury has better stats than Elliott does.

Okay let's look at a sample since 2011:

Elliott - .922 / 2.11 GAA
Fluery - .917 / 2.38 GAA

So if the 10/13 game samples for these two goalies don't matter why exactly do we want MAF over ELliott?

Oh yeah, we don't.

What a convenient sample size to use. Why don't you take out 2011-2012 and see what happens? You know, that season that Elliott had a .940 save% and the season that's purely being used to inflate his stats in your post. And I guess games played all of a sudden doesn't matter, I guess putting up a .920 save% in 10 games is just as good as putting up a .920 save% in 70 games.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Playing all those regular season games just made MAF the worst playoff goalie on the planet when it came down to it. I don't see how that makes him better than Elliott.

I sure wouldn't trade Elliott for MAF even if you guys added Sprong or Rust.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Playing all those regular season games just made MAF the worst playoff goalie on the planet when it came down to it. I don't see how that makes him better than Elliott.

I sure wouldn't trade Elliott for MAF even if you guys added Sprong or Rust.

Both of those points are just literally dumb as ****. How does the first point make any sense? How does Fleury playing more in the regular season cause him to suck in the playoffs from 2010-2013? Fleury playing 65 games or so a season isn't at all relevant to that. The Pens having bad defenses and Fleury being mentally fragile caused Fleury to be the worst playoff goalie on the planet in 2012.

You wouldn't trade Elliott for Fleury and Sprong? Seriously? That's like me saying I wouldn't trade Kunitz for Brouwer and Kylington. Posts like this one is why the trade board is laughed at on this site. It's really hard to have a serious discussion on here where stats don't matter and all that matters is feels.

For the record, I don't think the difference between Elliott and Fleury is that great, Fleury's big advantage is that he's a workhorse while Elliott isn't. If Elliott and Fleury were traded for each other, the add would be minimal from the Flames (like a 3rd).

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Both of those points are just literally dumb as ****. How does the first point make any sense? How does Fleury playing more in the regular season cause him to suck in the playoffs from 2010-2013? Fleury playing 65 games or so a season isn't at all relevant to that. The Pens having bad defenses and Fleury being mentally fragile caused Fleury to be the worst playoff goalie on the planet in 2012.

Let's see

Your logic: Chad JOhnson won't be as good if he has to play more games
My Logic: MAF wasn't as good once he had to play more games.

No sense, huh?

You wouldn't trade Elliott for Fleury and Sprong? Seriously? That's like me saying I wouldn't trade Kunitz for Brouwer and Kylington.

It is very much like that. MAF / Brouwer have term on their contracts that will be problematic even if they're coming with a stud prospect. Elliott/Kunitz are off the books if they don't prove they can play at their former levels.

It's really hard to have a serious discussion on here where stats don't matter and all that matters is feels.

How ironic, considering Elliott has by far the superior stats in every category, regular season and playoff, except games played over the last six seasons.

 

[Halla]

I'm not expecting a huge return, but I don't see any sort of justification for why the Penguins couldn't trade him. I expect him to get moved for another goalie and a 2nd or 3rd, that's about it. I think Dallas, Carolina, Calgary, Philly, NYI, Vancouver, and Arizona would have varying levels of interest in him, with Dallas, Carolina and Calgary being the big players there.

calgary has elliot, carolina has ward playing very well, dallas would need to move niemi/lehtonen in any deal.

niemi + 3rd for fleury. dallas gets a G upgrade, pittsburgh saves a bit of money and is able to protect murray

 

[Empoleon8771]

It is very much like that. MAF / Brouwer have term on their contracts that will be problematic even if they're coming with a stud prospect. Elliott/Kunitz are off the books if they don't prove they can play at their former levels.

Saying "I wouldn't want Fleury because his contract can become problematic" is a hell of a lot different than what you were saying before this.

How ironic, considering Elliott has by far the superior stats in every category, regular season and playoff, except games played over the last six seasons.

And doesn't it say something that you have to use 6 seasons for that to be true? It's not true for any other amount of seasons other than that. You're being intentionally dishonest by saying this. You go one more year back and Elliott's save% falls to a .915. You go one year shorter and Elliott's save% falls to a .917. Again, you're manipulating numbers and using a god like season Elliott had 5 years ago as a crutch for why Elliott is better than Fleury. It's totally dishonest in an argument and literally anyone who wants to look up the stats can see right through your argument.

calgary has elliot, carolina has ward playing very well, dallas would need to move niemi/lehtonen in any deal.

niemi + 3rd for fleury. dallas gets a G upgrade, pittsburgh saves a bit of money and is able to protect murray

Elliott is putting up terrible numbers, he's getting severely outplayed by a journeyman backup. That kind of deal is what I'm expecting to happen in the middle of the season.