OT: Pirates Talk: That Skenes guy is okay at teh baseball
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DJ Spinoza
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- Aug 7, 2003
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If anyone even wants to take on Hayes, trading him seems like it would backfire.
Honestly, I'm not gonna get worked up over it, but this makes less than zero sense. Even if we could somehow utilize Frazier with how the roster is currently constructed, it's hard to even understand why he's getting a guaranteed MLB salary.
Speculating about a Hayes move does make some sense given this news, but stepping back a bit, nothing about this entire offseason so far makes one bit of sense without the overriding and obvious caveat that they are shuffling deck chairs around while absolutely forbidden from even raising the salary a little bit.
I mean, Austin Hays, who isn't even good, but still counts as better than the current options, just signed for 5M to the Reds. Either there's another shoe or two to drop via trade, or we're just basically saying "f*** it".
Honestly, I'm not gonna get worked up over it, but this makes less than zero sense. Even if we could somehow utilize Frazier with how the roster is currently constructed, it's hard to even understand why he's getting a guaranteed MLB salary.
Speculating about a Hayes move does make some sense given this news, but stepping back a bit, nothing about this entire offseason so far makes one bit of sense without the overriding and obvious caveat that they are shuffling deck chairs around while absolutely forbidden from even raising the salary a little bit.
I mean, Austin Hays, who isn't even good, but still counts as better than the current options, just signed for 5M to the Reds. Either there's another shoe or two to drop via trade, or we're just basically saying "f*** it".
I know it a very little amount, but if they would quit spending what little they spend on objectively awful players they might actually sign a decent one.
WickedWrister
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Empoleon8771
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Yeah Yorke's profile sounds basically exactly like what the Pirates want out of their 2B. The question is where does that leave Gonzales? Can Gonzales cut it at SS, or will one of Yorke or Gonzales have to move to the OF? I personally think Gonzales doesn't have the arm to cut it at SS, he might have okay-ish SS range but the arm is just far too weak. Same issue Yorke has (without the good range), which also makes both not viable at 3B.
It's funny that the Pirates just signed Frazier, but I think Yorke's profile sounds very similar to what Frazier was for the Pirates.
It's funny that the Pirates just signed Frazier, but I think Yorke's profile sounds very similar to what Frazier was for the Pirates.
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This organization is a laughingstock. They have at least 6 guys who could play second as well as Frazier. If the plan is to put him in right field, there are at least 4-5 guys who can hit just as poorly. This was just a stupid signing - why they insist on signing a half-dozen bums rather than making a modest investment in at least a single average player is just amazing. No one is asking them to sign $100M - just to try to act like they are still part of the league. After another 2025 losing season (which is coming), they'll repackage the same BS of how Cherington and Shelton are the right guys to lead the team into the future.
Thats interesting but Law always loves contact guys. IIRC he was high on Newman.
MrBrightside
Registered User
It is pretty difficult to have had lower expectations for this offseason and yet they still managed to underachieve them.
Im sure Lastings Milledge and Chris Resop will come to the rescue soon enough.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Fangraphs had a terrific article today criticizing the Pirates operation:
blogs.fangraphs.com
They make a point I largely agree with, Frazier and Mayza are fine additions but it's unacceptable this team is still not trying to be more aggressive. They're speaking well of the off-season moves they have made, with Clemens noting that he really like Horwitz, but the moves they have made are woefully insufficient for what they should be doing.
Semi related, but I saw a theory thrown out that Frazier coming back may be an indication Hayes isn't trending like they want.
The Pirates’ Approach to Getting Paul Skenes to the Playoffs? Sign Adam Frazier and Tim Mayza
This is the best opportunity the Pirates have had in years to go all in. Instead, they are projected to run a lower payroll than they did 10 years ago.
They make a point I largely agree with, Frazier and Mayza are fine additions but it's unacceptable this team is still not trying to be more aggressive. They're speaking well of the off-season moves they have made, with Clemens noting that he really like Horwitz, but the moves they have made are woefully insufficient for what they should be doing.
Semi related, but I saw a theory thrown out that Frazier coming back may be an indication Hayes isn't trending like they want.
MrBrightside
Registered User
Frazier and Mayza aren't even fine additions.Fangraphs had a terrific article today criticizing the Pirates operation:
The Pirates’ Approach to Getting Paul Skenes to the Playoffs? Sign Adam Frazier and Tim Mayza
This is the best opportunity the Pirates have had in years to go all in. Instead, they are projected to run a lower payroll than they did 10 years ago.
They make a point I largely agree with, Frazier and Mayza are fine additions but it's unacceptable this team is still not trying to be more aggressive. They're speaking well of the off-season moves they have made, with Clemens noting that he really like Horwitz, but the moves they have made are woefully insufficient for what they should be doing.
Semi related, but I saw a theory thrown out that Frazier coming back may be an indication Hayes isn't trending like they want.
I agree, both are projected to be replacement level which is not exactly a high bar.
MrBrightside
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Empoleon8771
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"Let’s review: I like each of these signings on their own. I think both players have a reasonable chance of contributing as back-of-the-roster role players in 2025, and for less than $3 million combined, that’s just good business. Now, let’s get to the bigger picture: I absolutely hate what the Pirates are doing this offseason, these signings included."
This is what the article said and it seems pretty correct to me.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
The Pirates won the arbitration hearing with Oviedo, he'll be paid $850k this year.
I never understood why teams went to arbitration over such a small difference, the Pirates were at $850k while Oviedo was at $1.15 million. I guess those do end up adding up if you always just meet the player's ask, but it still seems silly to me. That's not just a Pirates thing, that's a baseball thing.
I never understood why teams went to arbitration over such a small difference, the Pirates were at $850k while Oviedo was at $1.15 million. I guess those do end up adding up if you always just meet the player's ask, but it still seems silly to me. That's not just a Pirates thing, that's a baseball thing.
MrBrightside
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I agree that this is what the article says. I disagree that Adam Frazier makes this team better - the guy has fallen off a cliff and doesn't fill a need of any kind.
ChaosAgent
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- May 8, 2018
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MrBrightside
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Keith Law ranks the Pirates' farm system 16th.
www.nytimes.com
MLB 2025 farm system rankings: Keith Law ranks all 30 teams, Mariners are new No. 1
Law's annual farm system rankings has the Mariners up top, followed by the Red Sox and Dodgers. The Astros and Angels are at the bottom.
www.nytimes.com
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Keith Law ranks the Pirates' farm system 16th.
MLB 2025 farm system rankings: Keith Law ranks all 30 teams, Mariners are new No. 1
Law's annual farm system rankings has the Mariners up top, followed by the Red Sox and Dodgers. The Astros and Angels are at the bottom.
I think that's fair and he made a really good point that I hadn't thought of, their international signings have been dogshit for the past couple of years.
Their best international prospect right now is probably De Los Santos, who had a .803 OPS between RK and A ball last year as a 19 year old. Not terrible but not particularly good either, hence why he's not ranked in their top-10.
MrBrightside
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Yep. Here's his narrative for those without an Athletic sub:
The Pirates’ system is solid, although I could see their fans wishing this ranking was higher. They’ve had too many top guys stall out, unfortunately, including several high-bonus guys from the draft like Termarr Johnson (still on the top 100) and Anthony Solometo (not on the top 100 … or their top 10). They’ve also had less success on the international front in the last few cycles, and that’s reflected in their top 10 in particular. The trade for Nick Yorke — which, to be honest, I didn’t love for them at the time — now looks like it might have been a steal.
pistolpete11
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- Apr 27, 2013
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pistolpete11
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- Apr 27, 2013
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Frazier as an end of the bench utility guy is fine.
The problem is that they've already got Frazier level players in the starting lineup at 3B, SS, 2B, and RF + Triolo on the bench who fills the same role.
The problem is that they've already got Frazier level players in the starting lineup at 3B, SS, 2B, and RF + Triolo on the bench who fills the same role.
DJ Spinoza
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- Aug 7, 2003
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The absolute crown jewel of this offseason by Ben Cherington would be if the Reds ended up getting Luis Robert.
I don't have an Athletic sub so I am just linking this Reds blogger/RumBunter type, who is saying that the Hays deal is still being held up because they might still be negotiating (I would take that with the same huge grain of salt put out by any Kody Duncan Pirates type, but who knows)...
Arroyo is a bit of a mystery to me. He's had injury issues that have seemingly hampered his prospect status, so it's hard to really make any kind of educated guess about how his public prospect profile actually jives with how he's seen inside baseball organizations.
Regardless, Robert's value has to be somewhat middling after last year, so if it's true that the White Sox are willing to move him now, it's worth perking up your ears IMO. I'm only stating the obvious from each of us for the one millionth time this winter, but it's basically only a move like this or for a younger hitter like Kjerstad that can even begin to salvage this disastrous situation for us, and you can even tell a critical story of these players (to state it plainly, I'll go ahead and say that I think the single most important thing we should have done was just put the money on Santander's table).
I'm not gonna get caught up in wishcasting this one, but I do like Robert more than what he showed last year and I think the major question with him is probably his health. He's a huge boom player if everything fires on one cylinder, the kind that for one season could very much be the best player by far on the entire offense. I think he'd make a great addition to how this team is currently constructed, because you might be able to really craft a threatening lineup by slotting he and Cruz into lineup spots that are surrounded with the pesky, high contact but little power players that we have a number of.
Hopefully not too many yinzers that go gaga over fireworks and bobbleheads get ahold of that thing.
