OT: Pirates Talk: Lets Play Ball

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I cancelled Fubo cause I got a kid now. I'll watch the box scores and maybe do the SN360 if the mood strikes.

I'll maybe go to a couple of games but I have very little desire to support Bob, Bob and Ben's bucs.
 
The only way the Padres moving Merrill to CF was any different was because Merrill actually panned out doing it, while Davis didn't. Maybe you can argue that moving from SS to CF is easier than C to RF, but I really don't see how the Pirates did anything differently than the Padres there. Davis just didn't pan out because he seems mentally fragile, and ironically he actually hit better as a RF in 2023 than he hit as a C in 2024.

Irrespective of the constant need to absolve Davis for his own horrific performance, I agree with this. Endy is playing 1st to add intrigue because BC's biggest offseason acquisition turned out to be damaged goods?

You guys seem dead set on insinuating that my comments are about defending Davis. If you want to keep saying that they are, feel free. I think Davis is likely a bust at this point and yet another in a long line of players that the Cherington front office completely failed to develop.

That's more relevant in my eyes than adjudicating some kind of back-and-forth about Davis. I don't care about Davis at this point.

I don't know how to measure or assess "mental fragility" and so I will leave it up to those who can. What I can see is that the Padres are an organization who can internally identify young talent and then successfully develop it, while the Pirates are not. It's not just that Merrill happened to turn out well and Davis was always going to be a bust. The Padres developed Merrill, while the Pirates rushed Davis and now he's at best in limbo. That falls on John Baker and others who are the actual difference that came along with the Cherington regime and not the scouting side of things.

The main exception to this seems to be pitching under Marin, even if we take the easy button of Skenes away because he's an exception to everything else anyone knows about prospects. Jones and Chandler are good evidence for the pitching program being in good shape, though even with Skenes as a rookie Cy Young candidate included in the mix, I'm not sure those improvements are enough to make this a .500 team. Barely, maybe.

Endy might buck the trend, and I hope he does. But other than a partial season of Jack Suwinski, there's little evidence that the current team has any clue how to convert prospect talent into MLB production.
 
One last comment on the Endy discussion, when I say I don’t have an issue with it, I’m referring to Shelton making the decision to play him at 1B due to injuries. In the end, they shouldn’t even be in this spot because they should have known to bring in more 1B depth in the first place. Between knowing about Horwitz’s bum wrist and his poor lefty splits, there was no reason to not supplement him with at least a righty 1B that could hit lefties. Like I posted, I still don’t understand why they brought in Frazier to be their last bench bat over any sort of righty 1B.

I’m fine with Shelton making that decision because it’s him trying to make the best out of a shitty situation Cherington put him in. Cherington shouldn’t have put them in a position where a Horwitz injury (that they knew about at the time of the trade) would result in Triolo, Endy or DJ Stewart at 1B. Not only did they neglect that need with bringing in Frazier, but I don’t even see what Frazier offers in the first place that isn’t offered between Triolo and Suwinski on the bench.
 
You guys seem dead set on insinuating that my comments are about defending Davis. If you want to keep saying that they are, feel free. I think Davis is likely a bust at this point and yet another in a long line of players that the Cherington front office completely failed to develop.

That's more relevant in my eyes than adjudicating some kind of back-and-forth about Davis. I don't care about Davis at this point.

I don't know how to measure or assess "mental fragility" and so I will leave it up to those who can. What I can see is that the Padres are an organization who can internally identify young talent and then successfully develop it, while the Pirates are not. It's not just that Merrill happened to turn out well and Davis was always going to be a bust. The Padres developed Merrill, while the Pirates rushed Davis and now he's at best in limbo. That falls on John Baker and others who are the actual difference that came along with the Cherington regime and not the scouting side of things.

The main exception to this seems to be pitching under Marin, even if we take the easy button of Skenes away because he's an exception to everything else anyone knows about prospects. Jones and Chandler are good evidence for the pitching program being in good shape, though even with Skenes as a rookie Cy Young candidate included in the mix, I'm not sure those improvements are enough to make this a .500 team. Barely, maybe.

Endy might buck the trend, and I hope he does. But other than a partial season of Jack Suwinski, there's little evidence that the current team has any clue how to convert prospect talent into MLB production.

Were you not complaining about Super 2 stuff with Davis in the first place when he was held down in 2023? So rushed or not rushed?

I agree, he is at this point a failure of the FO. The FO sucks. Cherington sucks. But the actual reason why Davis is a bust is because he hasn't displaced a 38-39 year old Mccutchen as DH. That has nothing to do with a 3 month misadventure in the field and everything to do with missing dead red fastballs in 2024.
 
Were you not complaining about Super 2 stuff with Davis in the first place when he was held down in 2023? So rushed or not rushed?

I agree, he is at this point a failure of the FO. The FO sucks. Cherington sucks. But the actual reason why Davis is a bust is because he hasn't displaced a 38-39 year old Mccutchen as DH. That has nothing to do with a 3 month misadventure in the field and everything to do with missing dead red fastballs in 2024.
I don't remember saying that, but if you want to keep pressing and pressing and pressing and pressing on the same exact point about adjudicating old discussions about Henry Davis: congratulations, Henry Davis isn't good.

Whether to place blame on Davis or not on Davis is irrelevant. It is a non-issue. Saying that the Pirates don't seem to have a plan and have poor player development has nothing to do with getting Davis off the hook for not succeeding in MLB. I don't know what that would even mean, or why it would be interesting to talk about.

It also seems like it should be uncontroversial to say that sticking a player out of position while they are transitioning to MLB pitching is not exactly setting them up for success. The fact that other players in other situations did something similar is sort of besides the point, because 1) a player like Merrill specifically is an exceptional situation and an outlier and 2) it doesn't tell us anything else about the Pirates and the Pirates bad player development.

None of that amounts only to making excuses for Davis in my eyes. Similarly, the point you bring up about Davis being late on fastballs as an overriding problem is something that we can attribute to Davis so far not proving he can hack it in MLB, but also and more importantly (I would argue at least), exactly indicative of the Pirates' bad development and their mishandling of Davis in a long list of others that includes at least half a dozen other players.

They threw him into the fire of MLB pitching both having not identified the hole in his approach to high fastballs and having him play a position defensively where he clearly was not prepared or comfortable (he has innings recorded there in the minors, but a chunk of those were him moving around in games; Endy is admittedly a bit different here). Since I seemingly need to state this again to avoid misunderstanding or like I am trying to call back to old discussions I have forgotten (I was not ever trying to do this...): does this mean Davis does not deserve any blame for his current less than stellar track record in MLB? Obviously not. But I don't see how that is something worth dwelling on, given that Davis is simply one of the more loud examples of player development failure in a regime marked by basically nothing else other than a phenom pitching prospect and some nice young arm talent. At some point the player becomes a moot point.

It's too early to call a catcher a bust in their age 25/26 season. There are countless examples. He may well be a bust, but he may also have the raw tools (bat speed, power) that another player development group would be able to unlock. Things may also fall into place somehow in another 2-3 seasons, which happens a lot for catchers. Even if he took a Bart-like route, it's a failure for a number 1 pick, even one as a qualification given the BS jockeying in drafts.

The larger issue in my eyes is that we're now barreling towards the eventuality of new sweeping changes in the front office and the financially self-imposed need to trade Skenes and recoup different prospects. Davis being bad currently is a Davis problem, but it's also one cog in a broader Pirates problem, which started before Skenes even got here, and now combined with a total indifference in investing with the team, has the 2025 team bracing for a bad three weeks meaning not only no vague WC chase, but rather a shift in attention to another draft lottery and pipe dreams about how they'll have learned their lesson and truly take building seriously for 2026.

Sorry, I know that most everyone agrees with the cynical jabs at Cherington and the organization that I am including. But I don't know how else to say it regarding Davis. He has not performed well, which falls on him. But very little about his development is something that can even be described as a neutral way to pave the ground for an MLB debut. The more important thing to stay focused on in my opinion is what the development group did and didn't do as a part of setting him up to not be among the solutions for the current team, which is something that would have been possible if the front office had instituted better player development promises as their main selling point was supposed to be.
 
It also seems like it should be uncontroversial to say that sticking a player out of position while they are transitioning to MLB pitching is not exactly setting them up for success. The fact that other players in other situations did something similar is sort of besides the point, because 1) a player like Merrill specifically is an exceptional situation and an outlier and 2) it doesn't tell us anything else about the Pirates and the Pirates bad player development.
I was obviously surprised to find this a controversial proposition also. Having a guy who struggled at this level in 2023 and who missed all of 2024 trying to get established in 2025 while also learning essentially a new position that he was assigned with 3 days left in Spring Training is about the worst possible way to develop him. When you add in the fact that his bat is not really what you want at 1B anyway, it's absolutely evidence of poor planning (or more likely no planning) by the organization.
 
Because everyone coming up these days plays premium defensive positions C, SS, and CF. 3B to a lesser extent. It should be well-understood that these are 4 positions but 8 on a baseball diamond and therefore some of those players we will have to move. A player who obviously was identified from the moment he was drafted as someone who couldn't hack it at catcher was an immediate candidate to move especially when a much better defensive catcher in Endy came along.

As far as rehashing Davis, I will take you at your word that your Endy position was not a roundabout excuse to say that the position change ruined Davis's bat again. I will rescind the topic.
 
Even if the issue for Davis is between his ears, it is still on the Pirates to try to fix it; sports psychologist, meditation, yoga, something. And if they can't fix it, it is another dimension in which the Pirates seem to fail at developing hitters. Maybe they need to talk to the pitching side that seems to be above average at development, but the batting side needs to adapt and change their approach.
 
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Still waiting on confirmation for the Pirates final roster, they have 13 healthy hitters and 14 healthy pitchers so they still need to send someone down.

It's going to be a reliever, they have 9 relievers up (Bednar, Ferguson, Holderman, Lawrence, Mayza, Santana, Stratton, Strzelecki and Wentz) and I don't see any of them listed on the injured report. The hitters and SP are already finished with Horwitz and Jones on the IL, but they still need to send down one more reliever.
 
Still waiting on confirmation for the Pirates final roster, they have 13 healthy hitters and 14 healthy pitchers so they still need to send someone down.

It's going to be a reliever, they have 9 relievers up (Bednar, Ferguson, Holderman, Lawrence, Mayza, Santana, Stratton, Strzelecki and Wentz) and I don't see any of them listed on the injured report. The hitters and SP are already finished with Horwitz and Jones on the IL, but they still need to send down one more reliever.

Dont forget Borucki
 
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Even if the issue for Davis is between his ears, it is still on the Pirates to try to fix it; sports psychologist, meditation, yoga, something. And if they can't fix it, it is another dimension in which the Pirates seem to fail at developing hitters. Maybe they need to talk to the pitching side that seems to be above average at development, but the batting side needs to adapt and change their approach.
Yes, I probably should not have been as cavalier and sneering towards @Empoleon8771 and @ChaosAgent regarding Davis as mentally weak, etc.

It's definitely something that can't be hand waived away by me. Very legitimate to wonder if that's part of why he struggled.

I'm curious how much I hyped Davis prior to his initial debut but not enough to go back and try to find exactly what I said. I assume I definitely thought that the bat was ready, because to me that was one thing that stood out from doing casual watching if MiLB games. With the lack of any real camera angles, etc., it's hard to get much of a feel for defense unless you are actually at the games.

Still, if it wasn't clear and seemed like I just wanted to absolve Davis somehow in my initial posts about Endy and 1B, then that's my fault. I think it's more that this positional fungibility is one example of a broader total failure on the PD side, especially for batters. On that front, whatever this situation with Mlodzinski is going to be is a somewhat analogous thing with pitchers. Seems like he's in part the starter to give Harrington and Chandler more time to tune up and cap innings in AAA. He's been a success story as a reliever and seemingly could just be used in that capacity going forward, but obviously a starter is more valuable (even a backend one). We'll see how it plays out, but these player development situations seem to be self-caused by the cheapness of the organization and compound the issues.
 
I know Opening Day is a time for optimism but man it's hard to look at that roster and think this team has any real chance at making the playoffs. If one were to list the 100 most valuable major league players, Skenes is the only one on that list and Reynolds and maybe Cruz are the only others close. The hodgepodge of mediocrity label still rings true.
 
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I share the same sentiments as everybody else and am not sure I'll have the energy/attention span to bother with these look aheads and recaps... nevertheless:

Where things stand:

Like all the non-Tokyo Series teams, the Pirates greet Opening Day with a 0-0 record and a chance to have things play out on the field rather than only on paper. Although if you press me, I will say that I think it's easy to forget that every amidst (justifiable) cynicism throughout last year from everybody (including me), this team still battled quite a lot and things could have went differently, it's also really hard to find anything to even hope brings about a spark that could push the win total over .500 enough to be in the WC race.

Spring training mostly looks like treading water. The Jones injury is massive but at least for now, not final. It did take what might charitably be described as the one strength of the roster and turn it into more of a question mark, but I suppose otherwise it's good that most everything else was normal, and also that Hayes seems to be healthy, for now.

This tweet kinda sums things up for me:

We're running everything back in a mildly shook up way. The only difference is obviously that the roster is now headlined with the NL Cy Young favorite rather than that player being a highly touted pitching prospect whose debut was TBD. But, as we have all pointed out ad nauseam all offseason, that should have driven the urgency to at least attempt to make more upgrades. Fittingly, the only upgrade is a massive question mark who is not well-suited for a position we are always comically weak at, and then got hurt.

As much as anything else, the Horowitz trade sums up where things stand.

Looking ahead:

I usually like to try and chop these into 10 game stretches or so, but the early schedule is a bit weird. I think I'll start simple here with just this opening road trip, and then it looks like it will work to take the longer run with slightly over 10 games after this stretch (if these are even worth continuing).

Last year, we started the year by beating the snot out of the Marlins. I have no confidence it will happen, but this Marlins team is very bad and we really should be doing the same this year. Alcantara is back, but their lineup is atrocious even when compared side-by-side with ours. This kind of sucks, because 4-game series are always subject to a bit of wonkiness, but I don't see how anything other than 3-1 would be a success here.

We then get Tampa, who will be an interesting matchup. Seemingly we will get Skenes back in one of those games, so you have to figure 4-3 as a baseline for these early series games, but despite poo pooing actual optimism, I want to say that I think the Pirates might need to find a way to eeek out some real momentum for themselves with 5-2.

Either sweep a basement Marlins team or find a way to take two from a better Tampa team. I say this not out of optimism that it will happen, but because I think it might need to in order to shelter what look like punted losses in the home opener series vs the Yankees given who lines up to pitch. We'll cross that bridge when we get there, but this opening stretch is opportunity knocking for at least a little air. Anything below 4-3 is just the start of the bad vibes that I think we are all expecting to loom all year.
 

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