OT: Pirates Talk: Lets Play Ball

[DJ Spinoza]

The "Endy shouldn't be a 1b" argument seems to be a "Henry Davis is not culpable for his historically awful performance in 2023-2024" in disguise.

A catcher was asked to switch positions. Boo hoo. Part of the job description. The difference is Davis failed at it. Most catchers don't.

I'm not saying it to try and get Davis off the hook, though I had forgotten that Endy has played a decent bit of 1B until you and Emp pointed it out.

Still, if I am not misremembering, the goal since rehab has been building Endy up at C, and now that the games are going to matter (or not, realistically), we get the switch to his multi-positionality.

I think the whole thing is just illustrative of the Pirates' bad player development. Other than hiring some more front office analytics people, which would happen under NH or any other GM, the whole self-justification for this front office was revamped player development. I hope Endy bucks the trend and hits the ground running in MLB, but the results speak for themselves.

 

[BusinessGoose]

1B is easy, yet... It's still a very important base...

Do any of you have advanced defensive metrics for Endy over this 330 some odd minors innings? Like, was he even good at it?

 

[Empoleon8771]

1B is easy, yet... It's still a very important base...

Do any of you have advanced defensive metrics for Endy over this 330 some odd minors innings? Like, was he even good at it?

Not to any level that you can reasonably draw conclusions from it. His Range Factor per 9 is about 10% lower than the MLB average, but I don't think you can apply MLB averages to A ball and say they perfectly apply.

Endy played 69 innings at 1B in 2023, with 67 in AAA and 2 in the MLB. His numbers don't look pretty notable in either direction to me.

 

[MrBrightside]

I have no idea how good or bad Endy Rodriguez will be defensively at 1B and doubt he'll be bad enough so as to notice. The bigger issues are that his bat is likely to be grossly substandard for the position, he has played a total of 92 innings of professional baseball at 1B since 2021 and will be learning the position at this level (something that is almost certain to impact his bat), he doesn't offer a platoon split with Horwitz, and he was given no reps in Spring Training at the position. It may or may not work out ok enough defensively but this is not how a serious organization handles things.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I have no idea how good or bad Endy Rodriguez will be defensively at 1B and doubt he'll be bad enough so as to notice. The bigger issues are that his bat is likely to be grossly substandard for the position, he has played a total of 92 innings of professional baseball at 1B since 2021 and will be learning the position at this level (something that is almost certain to impact his bat), he doesn't offer a platoon split with Horwitz, and he was given no reps in Spring Training at the position. It may or may not work out ok enough defensively but this is not how a serious organization handles things.

What is this based on? Just because Davis had his bat implode while learning how to play RF doesn't mean that Endy would have the same issue.

I also don't see how the platoon split with Horwitz really matters when we don't know how they're planning to use Endy at 1B once Horwitz is healthy. Nor are his minor league numbers against lefties a problem, Endy just generally doesn't have notable lefty/righty splits.

Also to the "no serious major league organization would handle it like this" claim, Jackson Merrill played a grand total of 5 games in the minors in the OF before he was named San Diego's starting CF last year. He won the Silver Slugger at CF despite never playing CF in the minors. This all just seems like blaming the team for Davis completely flopping when he moved to RF when it was primarily Davis' own fault for his failures. Other players have no issues being able to change positions and being able to hit while doing it.

 

[MrBrightside]

What is this based on? Just because Davis had his bat implode while learning how to play RF doesn't mean that Endy would have the same issue.

I also don't see how the platoon split with Horwitz really matters when we don't know how they're planning to use Endy at 1B once Horwitz is healthy. Nor are his minor league numbers against lefties a problem, Endy just generally doesn't have notable lefty/righty splits.

Also to the "no serious major league organization would handle it like this" claim, Jackson Merrill played a grand total of 5 games in the minors in the OF before he was named San Diego's starting CF last year. He won the Silver Slugger at CF despite never playing CF in the minors. This all just seems like blaming the team for Davis completely flopping when he moved to RF when it was primarily Davis' own fault for his failures. Other players have no issues being able to change positions and being able to hit while doing it.

It's based on common sense. Having a young player add the weight of learning a new defensive position while making their initial way in the league is never helpful.

And you're arguing with yourself now as actually the point about the platoon split came from YOU the other day, but I see you're now in "all is well!!!" mode and don't want to hear negativity. I'll wait until that passes to engage further on anything not super positive.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Henry Davis making Steven Brault look like Babe Ruth in 2024 is his own fault. Not the fault of a 3 month position switch in 2023 (which was then reversed in 2024). He seems like a great guy and clearly has hitting talent, but as of now looks like he doesn't have it between the ears. Too intense, too much pressure on himself, and his crouchy mccrouchface batting stance probably doesn't help

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's based on common sense. Having a young player add the weight of learning a new defensive position while making their initial way in the league is never helpful.

If it was actually common sense, you'd have players regularly failing to hit due to adjusting positions. But that doesn't happen because it's not "common sense". Just because Henry Davis blew chunks while doing it doesn't mean it's the normal.

And you're arguing with yourself now as actually the point about the platoon split came from YOU the other day, but I see you're now in "all is well!!!" mode and don't want to hear negativity. I'll wait until that passes to engage further on anything not super positive.

I said that Bart fits more naturally with Horwitz as a platoon split, not that Endy is somehow a problem with Horwitz.

Endy hits lefties and righties about equally as well, at least based on his minors splits. Him being a righty platoon for Horwitz isn't a problem because he (probably) is a better hitter against lefties than Horwitz is. Bart fits the bill more naturally because Bart kills lefties, but this isn't pairing two lefty hitters who can't hit lefties together.

 

[MrBrightside]

Cruz had an OPS almost 100 points higher as a SS than he did while trying to learn how to play CF last year (.798 as a SS and .701 as a CF). How is this a controversial position.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Henry Davis making Steven Brault look like Babe Ruth in 2024 is his own fault. Not the fault of a 3 month position switch in 2023 (which was then reversed in 2024). He seems like a great guy and clearly has hitting talent, but as of now looks like he doesn't have it between the ears. Too intense, too much pressure on himself, and his crouchy mccrouchface batting stance probably doesn't help

To add, Davis' bat was worse in the MLB when he was playing catcher than when he was playing RF. In the MLB, he has a .675 OPS as a RFer, a .470 OPS as a C and a .518 OPS as a DH.

Cruz had an OPS almost 100 points higher as a SS than he did while trying to learn how to play CF last year. How is this a controversial position.

Cruz putting up a .700 OPS in a month is not indicative that changing positions somehow causes a player's hitting ability to tank.

 

[MrBrightside]

To add, Davis' bat was worse in the MLB when he was playing catcher than when he was playing RF. In the MLB, he has a .675 OPS as a RFer, a .470 OPS as a C and a .518 OPS as a DH.



Cruz putting up a .700 OPS in a month is not indicative that changing positions somehow causes player's hitting value to tank.

It's certainly evidence that learning a new position can affect a player's bat, yes. But you're right, if you ignore evidence that is contrary to your argument, it makes your argument super compelling.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's certainly evidence that learning a new position can affect a player's bat, yes. But you're right, if you ignore evidence that is contrary to your argument, it makes your argument super compelling.

I literally provided an example where that didn't happen with Jackson Merrill, who played in 0 career innings at CF before 2024 and won the Silver Slugger in the MLB as a CFer in 2024.

This all just stems from Henry Davis likely being a bust and extrapolating a theory for why he was a bust (they tried to make him a RFer) to every player. Endy Rodriguez isn't going to magically forget how to hit a ball because he's playing 1B instead of C.

 

[MrBrightside]

I literally provided an example where that didn't happen with Jackson Merrill, who played in 0 career innings at CF before 2024 and won the Silver Slugger in the MLB as a CFer in 2024.

This all just stems from Henry Davis likely being a bust and extrapolating a theory for why he was a bust (they tried to make him a RFer) to every player.

No, it doesn't stem from Henry Davis, but I'm not going to keep arguing with you about this when you're in the Pirates are Greatest mode. It's fine. Even if Endy doesn't hit I'm sure you'll still believe you were right because Jackson Merrill had a great rookie year. Carry on.

 

[Empoleon8771]

No, it doesn't stem from Henry Davis, but I'm not going to keep arguing with you about this when you're in the Pirates are Greatest mode. It's fine. Even if Endy doesn't hit I'm sure you'll still believe you were right because Jackson Merrill had a great rookie year. Carry on.

Or I can point out Moran (moved from 3B to 1B and had his best career hitting season after the swap), Frazier (went from a SS/OF in the minors to a 2B in the majors), Kang (played effectively only SS in the KBO and immediately hit with the Pirates shifting him to 3B) and Walker (was a C moved to 3B in the minors and only started playing 2B in the majors) as guys who didn't have issues with their bat due to moving positions.

Walker is an especially good example of this. Walker had 3042 innings at 3B, 1227 innings at C and 253 innings at 2B in the minors. He was converted into a full time 2B the second he was in the majors and played in nearly 9000 innings at 2B since. He had a 119 OPS+ in his first full season with the Pirates playing an effectively brand new position at 2B.

Most players don't forget how to hit a baseball when they're changing positions.

 

[MrBrightside]

 

[Empoleon8771]

So the Pirates think Jones needs TJS while Jones doesn't think he needs TJS. Lovely. You know Jones will try to rest it for 2-3 months to avoid TJS, only to need TJS anyway and be out both this year and next year due to it.

Feel free to say it's an overreaction, but I'm basically anticipating they won't have Jones either this year or next year at this point. Which makes them keeping Keller that much more important to do. Sucks but they really need Chandler and another young pitcher to pan out now.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

For me, the Endy Rodriguez thing is less about a specific player's situation (though I don't like it there) and more about it being another chapter in inept player development, on the one hand, and the Pirates' total lack of clear plans, on the other.

Merrill is a good player to bring up to emphasize that Davis' issues may stem only with Davis, but Merrill is also indicative of different priorities, although this is maybe less so given that the Padres might be poised for some kind of retool/rebuild soon (though they did get to the NLCS).

The Padres identified Merrill as a marquee prospect within their own system and turned him into a cornerstone young OF in part due to the fact that they had invested heavily in the left side of their infield. They still had the internal player process to both identify Merrill and then develop him, choosing instead to trade Wood for Soto. Wood looks like he'll be very good as well, but he was more highly touted at the time of the trade and Merrill didn't fully explode until afterwards, especially in the power department.

The Pirates haven't done anything close to that. Davis definitely could be a bust. Endy is a total unknown who is likely to struggle like almost all prospects when they adjust. Maybe Horowitz is hurt long enough that all of this just amounts to a path for Endy to get pretty regular playing time and then go from there.

But there just seems to be no plan. Endy's injury bailed them out from truly needing one last year, and we can call Davis a bust all we want, but they've mishandled him pretty obviously from early on. We lucked into Bart from the scrap heap, and catcher is admittedly a late developing position, but it all just looks like musical chairs of cheap players (including Horowitz) for no clear end other than the cheapness.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The Padres identified Merrill as a marquee prospect within their own system and turned him into a cornerstone young OF in part due to the fact that they had invested heavily in the left side of their infield. They still had the internal player process to both identify Merrill and then develop him, choosing instead to trade Wood for Soto. Wood looks like he'll be very good as well, but he was more highly touted at the time of the trade and Merrill didn't fully explode until afterwards, especially in the power department.

I don't understand how you can say this about Merrill while also saying the Pirates "mishandled" Davis, the two teams did almost identical things with Merrill and Davis. The Pirates had a surplus at catcher with Endy looking like the future at catcher, so they gradually started to move Davis from C to RF to start the 2023 season. By the time he was called up, Davis had played about 130 innings at RF in the 2023 season between Altoona and Indy. Merrill only got spring training with the Padres to learn how to play CF, he got 76 innings in spring training to shift from SS to CF and was immediately named their starting CF to open the 2024 season.

The only way the Padres moving Merrill to CF was any different was because Merrill actually panned out doing it, while Davis didn't. Maybe you can argue that moving from SS to CF is easier than C to RF, but I really don't see how the Pirates did anything differently than the Padres there. Davis just didn't pan out because he seems mentally fragile, and ironically he actually hit better as a RF in 2023 than he hit as a C in 2024.

From watching Davis in the MLB, the impression I get is that his problems are mental and not really a problem of the Pirates development. The dude has been killing it in the minors, he just has some sort of mental block that is preventing him from putting it together in the MLB.

But back to the Endy talk, it does seem that their thought process was basically "now that you made the team as a C, we'll look at you as a 1B option as well". Which you can reasonably argue shows bad planning on their end, because they've been trying to push Frazier and Triolo to 1B in the spring and could have spent more time doing that with Endy even if he was AAA bound. Especially with Davis in AAA, you could still use Endy at 1B now and then. That said, they were put in this mess with trying to push Endy to 1B because Cherington didn't bother giving the team actual 1B options beyond Horwitz.

I don't understand why they brought back Frazier instead of keeping Joe. Joe offers the same OF flexibility as Frazier, he complements Horwitz well as a platoon option (even with his mediocre overall bat, he's good against lefties) and the team doesn't really need another 2B bench piece with both Triolo and Bae as bench pieces.

 

[MrBrightside]

So maybe June, more likely post-ASB barring setbacks. Could be worse, I guess.

 

[BusinessGoose]

I for one, am looking forward to the season

I'm not sure I'm ready to be hit by the truck of reality, though

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

So maybe June, more likely post-ASB barring setbacks. Could be worse, I guess.

Thats about as good as could be expected

 

[ChaosAgent]

I don't understand how you can say this about Merrill while also saying the Pirates "mishandled" Davis, the two teams did almost identical things with Merrill and Davis. The Pirates had a surplus at catcher with Endy looking like the future at catcher, so they gradually started to move Davis from C to RF to start the 2023 season. By the time he was called up, Davis had played about 130 innings at RF in the 2023 season between Altoona and Indy. Merrill only got spring training with the Padres to learn how to play CF, he got 76 innings in spring training to shift from SS to CF and was immediately named their starting CF to open the 2024 season.

The only way the Padres moving Merrill to CF was any different was because Merrill actually panned out doing it, while Davis didn't. Maybe you can argue that moving from SS to CF is easier than C to RF, but I really don't see how the Pirates did anything differently than the Padres there. Davis just didn't pan out because he seems mentally fragile, and ironically he actually hit better as a RF in 2023 than he hit as a C in 2024.

From watching Davis in the MLB, the impression I get is that his problems are mental and not really a problem of the Pirates development. The dude has been killing it in the minors, he just has some sort of mental block that is preventing him from putting it together in the MLB.

But back to the Endy talk, it does seem that their thought process was basically "now that you made the team as a C, we'll look at you as a 1B option as well". Which you can reasonably argue shows bad planning on their end, because they've been trying to push Frazier and Triolo to 1B in the spring and could have spent more time doing that with Endy even if he was AAA bound. Especially with Davis in AAA, you could still use Endy at 1B now and then. That said, they were put in this mess with trying to push Endy to 1B because Cherington didn't bother giving the team actual 1B options beyond Horwitz.

I don't understand why they brought back Frazier instead of keeping Joe. Joe offers the same OF flexibility as Frazier, he complements Horwitz well as a platoon option (even with his mediocre overall bat, he's good against lefties) and the team doesn't really need another 2B bench piece with both Triolo and Bae as bench pieces.

Irrespective of the constant need to absolve Davis for his own horrific performance, I agree with this. Endy is playing 1st to add intrigue because BC's biggest offseason acquisition turned out to be damaged goods? Which already looks stupid, but BC might be saved by Ortiz sucking. He has been brutal in the spring. Who knows, Horowitz could put up an .800 OPS or so from May-end of year and it would look pretty good.

I still would have aimed much higher (Casas, Naylor) using Jones as bait.

"Irrespective" - setting that question to the side. I agree with you obviously on that front.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Irrespective of the constant need to absolve Davis for his own horrific performance, I agree with this. Endy is playing 1st to add intrigue because BC's biggest offseason acquisition turned out to be damaged goods? Which already looks stupid, but BC might be saved by Ortiz sucking. He has been brutal in the spring. Who knows, Horowitz could put up an .800 OPS or so from May-end of year and it would look pretty good.

I still would have aimed much higher (Casas, Naylor) using Jones as bait.

"Irrespective" - setting that question to the side. I agree with you obviously on that front.

Horowitz is much closer to Naylor and Casas than Ortiz is to Jones IMO.

 

[wheelz87]

I for one, am looking forward to the season

I'm not sure I'm ready to be hit by the truck of reality, though

Just wait til Thursday.. Skenes goes 7, strikes out 10, and we lose 1-0 lol

 

[BusinessGoose]

Just wait til Thursday.. Skenes goes 7, strikes out 10, and we lose 1-0 lol

I hate how accurate this is

But, I've been getting bamboozled for decades now