OT: Pirates Talk: Lets Play Ball

[WheresRamziAbid]

Also this whole "Nutting isn't making much money because they were at a -$2 million budget last year" falls flat when you realize that the appreciation of the franchise far outweighs any sort of losses that this team could be having. The Pirates are worth $1.32 billion and Nutting purchased them for $92 million in 1996.

Which is completely irrelevant to operations. How do you suppose the spend that appreciation? Its literally not real unless they sell.

btw

“Which is why, by the time I went to the Pirates with what we had, the team could see that and reluctantly — very reluctantly, I should say — acknowledged that we were accurate in our conclusion that they’re losing a modest amount of money of late.”

 

[Empoleon8771]

Which is completely irrelevant to operations. How do you suppose the spend that appreciation? Its literally not real unless they sell.

btw

“Which is why, by the time I went to the Pirates with what we had, the team could see that and reluctantly — very reluctantly, I should say — acknowledged that we were accurate in our conclusion that they’re losing a modest amount of money of late.”

How is it completely irrelevant? Nutting could easily take out loans on the value of the organization or just pay more out of his own pocket.

Nutting sold all of his ski resorts for $120 million in 2021. Every single MLB team got a $30 million check from Disney when Disney purchased BAMTech from the MLB for $900 million in 2022. He's not hurting for money. DK's likely sloppy math showing how the Pirates are barely breaking even or losing in recent years proves nothing.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

How is it completely irrelevant? Nutting could easily take out loans on the value of the organization or just pay more out of his own pocket.

Nutting sold all of his ski resorts for $120 million in 2021. Every single MLB team got a $30 million check from Disney when Disney purchased BAMTech from the MLB for $900 million in 2022. He's not hurting for money. DK's likely sloppy math showing how the Pirates are barely breaking even or losing in recent years proves nothing.

1. Its irrelevant because no business takes out loans against their “perceived” value just for shits and giggles. Hes not selling, and that miney is only relevant if he does.

2. Even if he received 120 million in personal cash from selling free and clear with nothing else its ticketed for. He cant just give it to the Pirates without diluting ownership share of the mknority owners. Even if you get past that, expecting someone to just write a 120 million dollar check is a real ballsy ask. BUT even if you get past that whats that going to do as a one time revenue? Its not sustainable.

3. Dont care how mich their Disney check was, its accounted for in national revenues. And again its a one time event. Lets say it was missed, now you go from a small loss to a small gain over the last half decade. Its the equivalent of a budgeting error.

As far as sustainable revenues, whats hurting this team, has always been lack of parking revenue and a perpetually shitty local Tv deal.

 

[Empoleon8771]

"The debt isn’t outrageous, but it’s never been higher in Bob Nutting’s 18-year tenure as controlling owner."

Also if the "debt has never been higher" under Bob Nutting's tenure when he just lost $2 million in a year, I'm willing to bet that he has made far more money than he has lost with the Pirates without even accounting for the appreciation in value of the franchise. There's also this:

"Now, I’ll reiterate: This debt isn’t seen as serious by anyone on the inside or outside. More local TV revenue’s anticipated as SportsNet Pittsburgh grows and, even if takes a while, MLB’s put a plan into motion to compensate teams that’ve lost their TV deals by as much as $15 million a year. National TV, which was flat year-over-year, should expand again. And sponsorships, which are paid out at the national level, just rode a 20% increase from 2023 to 2024, up to an all-time high of $1.9 billion."

So basically, the debt isn't significant and it isn't a worry in the long run, but it's high enough that you can justify Nutting not spending more money on the team to win now? Again, in the COVID window that DK is mentioning this team has accrued some debt, Nutting got $120 million from selling the ski resorts.

The reality is that Nutting is gaining money with the appreciation with the franchise and isn't willing to spend any money beyond what the team is making to make it better. He runs the team like a conservative investment, he's not willing to do anything that might end up in a loss for him despite the organization increasing in value by over 10x since he bought it. Even if the Pirates were completely cash neutral every year Nutting has been the owner, he still would have made over $1 billion from a $92 million investment from the Pirates over 30 years. Him needing to sell the team to get that $1 billion check doesn't change that he's sitting on an asset worth over $1 billion more than he paid for it, plus we know he has liquid money available through his sales of things like Seven Springs.

 

[Empoleon8771]

2. Even if he received 120 million in personal cash from selling free and clear with nothing else its ticketed for. He cant just give it to the Pirates without diluting ownership share of the mknority owners. Even if you get past that, expecting someone to just write a 120 million dollar check is a real ballsy ask. BUT even if you get past that whats that going to do as a one time revenue? Its not sustainable.

What does that have to do with what I said? Nutting can run a $10-$20 million loss in a season by spending more money to field a better team because he's getting massive amount of liquid money through sales like that, and it would more likely than not pay itself back with the increase in gate revenue the Pirates would get from having a better team.

If Bob Nutting isn't willing to risk losses in a season in an attempt to make this team better, he shouldn't own the team. Go become an investment banker if you want to do that.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Also if the "debt has never been higher" under Bob Nutting's tenure when he just lost $2 million in a year, I'm willing to bet that he has made far more money than he has lost with the Pirates without even accounting for the appreciation in value of the franchise. There's also this:



So basically, the debt isn't significant and it isn't a worry in the long run, but it's high enough that you can justify Nutting not spending more money on the team to win now? Again, in the COVID window that DK is mentioning this team has accrued some debt, Nutting got $120 million from selling the ski resorts.

The reality is that Nutting is gaining money with the appreciation with the franchise and isn't willing to spend any money beyond what the team is making to make it better. He runs the team like a conservative investment, he's not willing to do anything that might end up in a loss for him despite the organization increasing in value by over 10x since he bought it. Even if the Pirates were completely cash neutral every year Nutting has been the owner, he still would have made over $1 billion from a $92 million investment from the Pirates over 30 years. Him needing to sell the team to get that $1 billion check doesn't change that he's sitting on an asset worth over $1 billion more than he paid for it.

The asset value is useless until he sells it. It could literally be a bazillion gazillion dollars. Nobody, (especially someone whos net worth is primarily that asset value) is going to leverage that value just to lose more money on that asset.

anyone willing to do that might as well do their books in crayon.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The asset value is useless until he sells it. It could literally be a bazillion gazillion dollars. Nobody, (especially someone whos net worth is primarily that asset value) is going to leverage that value just to lose more money on that asset.

anyone willing to do that might as well do their books in crayon.

And he has sold some assets already, which has netted him over $100 million as recently as 2021.

Even if your bizarre "the value of the Pirates doesn't matter" statement was actually true, we know he has actual liquid money to be able to stomach losses in an attempt to make the team better. He just refuses to do that.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

What does that have to do with what I said? Nutting can run a $10-$20 million loss in a season by spending more money to field a better team because he's getting massive amount of liquid money through sales like that, and it would more likely than not pay itself back with the increase in gate revenue the Pirates would get from having a better team.

No it wouldnt. Even if he was willing to have the team take out loans, there are limits imposed by the MLB. (Aramis Ramirez trade anyone?) Even if he was willing to put it directly intk the team there are obstacles to doing so, and even if he got past them its still a monumentally stupid thing to do.

Even if he added 20 mill each year free and clear, its gone in 6 years and buys you (checks notes) Christian Walker level value.

Walker who is a fine player byw isn't coming anywhere close to recovering that money.

Your literally asking someone to set 120 million on fire, to make you feel better.

 

[BusinessGoose]

I'm not sure about the whole no business takes out loans for no reason

If they have decent interest rates, taking a loan could be better than using liquid money

Money that you can keep in your accounts and earn more on interest than you'll lose paying the loan back with

We don't know the terms or reason for the loans, and I'm going to bet it's not to keep the damn lights on.. They aren't about to go bankrupt

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yes, there is no evidence that spending more money on the team will result in the team being better and making more money.

Nutting’s three most profitable years as owner — not biggest revenue but biggest profit — were 2013-15, the only three years the Pirates made the playoffs, after which they peaked with a still-franchise-record $99.9 million payroll in 2016.

But yes, asking this team to be willing to run in the red to attempt to make the team better, which would completely logically increase attendance and revenue from that extra attendance, is totally "setting $120 million on fire because it makes you feel better".

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm not sure about the whole no business takes out loans for no reason

If they have decent interest rates, taking a loan could be better than using liquid money

Money that you can keep in your accounts and earn more on interest than you'll lose paying the loan back with

We don't know the terms or reason for the loans, and I'm going to bet it's not to keep the damn lights on.. They aren't about to go bankrupt

Literally a ton of businesses do exactly this. It's a nonsensical argument to make because we have countless examples of companies doing exactly this.

Amazon's Financial Growth: Assets, Liabilities & AWS Profits

Find out how Amazon's $554 billion in assets and $575 billion in revenue fuel rapid growth. Explore AWS profits, debt strategies, and their treasure trove of cash reserves

www.highradius.com

Additionally, Amazon uses debt to finance acquisitions, such as Whole Foods and MGM Studios, adding to its long-term liabilities but fueling growth.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

And he has sold some assets already, which has netted him over $100 million as recently as 2021.

Even if your bizarre "the value of the Pirates doesn't matter" statement was actually true, we know he has actual liquid money to be able to stomach losses in an attempt to make the team better. He just refuses to do that.

As he should refuse to do that. Because its Pejorative Slured.

What he should do is take calculated risks, at moments of opportunity. Your tracking to make the playoffs? Ok spend the extra couple million at the deadline.

Your a favorite for the division? Ok add that extra high leverage reliever.

Not, DERP i sold my other business lets make a random fan feel better by signing FA _____ a 15 million dollar contract. Oh hes hurt, oh well it was just my “extra money” or oh were still only projected to win 70 games, oh thats my ski mountain money who cares.

 

[Empoleon8771]

As he should refuse to do that. Because its Pejorative Slured.

What he should do is take calculated risks, at moments of opportunity. Your tracking to make the playoffs? Ok spend the extra couple million at the deadline.

Your a favorite for the division? Ok add that extra high leverage reliever.

Not, DERP i sold my other business lets make a random fan feel better by signing FA _____ a 15 million dollar contract. Oh hes hurt, oh well it was just my “extra money” or oh were still only projected to win 70 games, oh thats my ski mountain money who cares.

You're so obviously a Nutting apologist that literally any discussion with you is pointless.

The last I'm going to say is this: if Nutting isn't willing to run a deficit in a season to make the team better, he shouldn't own a MLB team. The Pirates own profit history shows they were most successful when Nutting was spending money and the team was good, it is blatantly obvious that team success drives revenue. If Nutting isn't willing to take the risk with spending more money to get a better team, he needs to go away and give the team to someone who will. In 2023, the Mets suffered an estimated $300 million operational loss. If Bob Nutting isn't willing to stomach any risk of losses to make the team better, he's in the wrong business.

We know Nutting has the money to be able to pay for losses in a year. We know the team is most profitable when it's good and spending money. We know that Nutting's initial investment of $92 million has skyrocketed to an over $1 billion value of the franchise. Trying to justify his cheapness with "they lost $2 million last year!" or "they'd be setting $120 million on fire just to make a fan happy!" just makes you look like a sad apologist, and it's not surprising that literally everyone who reads this thread is rolling their eyes at your nonsense.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Yes, there is no evidence that spending more money on the team will result in the team being better and making more money.



But yes, asking this team to be willing to run in the red to attempt to make the team better, which would completely logically increase attendance and revenue from that extra attendance, is totally "setting $120 million on fire because it makes you feel better".

12 million a win is the going rate. You think its worth spending personal cash to have won and extra 10 games over the last 5 years.

Dont be a clown, easy to talk when your not footing the bill.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

You're so obviously a Nutting apologist that literally any discussion with you is pointless.

Im a fact apologist. Coulbt give a rats ass about bob nutting.

Actually i wish he was a lying greedy cheapskate, at least thats theoretically fixable.

Your just being a whiney *****.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Literally a ton of businesses do exactly this. It's a nonsensical argument to make because we have countless examples of companies doing exactly this.

Amazon's Financial Growth: Assets, Liabilities & AWS Profits

Find out how Amazon's $554 billion in assets and $575 billion in revenue fuel rapid growth. Explore AWS profits, debt strategies, and their treasure trove of cash reserves

www.highradius.com

1. Are their league imposed debt limits on those businesses?

2. Do those business have a tangle plan on recuperating those expenses?

3. Do those business rely as much on luck and variable outcomes as how well a baseball team performs compared to their “on paper” projections?

4. What the success rate of businesses that are incurring yearly losses that need to borrow half a years worth of revenue?

 

[Fogel]

I don't know about you, but DK has never been the best journalist so I take his "investigation" with a generous amount of salt.

I think it is pretty undisputable that the Pirates are cheapskates. Even during the one big spending period during Cutch's prime with the best stretch the team had in a generation, the spending topped out at 22nd in competitive balance tax salary. Whether or not it is to breakeven or for more profit, it is a bit irrelevant. The current level of spending is not geared towards winning unless the Pirates got Rays or Dodgers level of scouting and development.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

It’s not much different than the wnba being propped up by the nba. Without the big clubs you would be operating at a loss. Baseball system is broken. The dodgers using deferred money to go around luxury tax.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

I don't know about you, but DK has never been the best journalist so I take his "investigation" with a generous amount of salt.

I think it is pretty undisputable that the Pirates are cheapskates. Even during the one big spending period during Cutch's prime with the best stretch the team had in a generation, the spending topped out at 22nd in competitive balance tax salary. Whether or not it is to breakeven or for more profit, it is a bit irrelevant. The current level of spending is not geared towards winning unless the Pirates got Rays or Dodgers level of scouting and development.

DK is an absolute douche canoe as a person and barely better as a columnist but i dont remember being any issues with strict reporting/journalism. I could be wrong, not exactly a fan.

As far as a grain of salt, yeah and outside report of financials have some degree of error. But this specific reporting seems to have been at least tacitly confirmed by the team.

At the end of the day this is the worst case scenario. As much as id like to believe its an intentional plan for the sake of profits, it appears to be just a bad circumstance not easily fixed. Best case scenario, there was a lot of waste in the other operating costs that can be remedied and reallocated to major league payroll.

 

[Rudy Russo]

I think it's a hell of a lot more likely that DK's numbers are just wrong and he's not including additional revenue sources than the Pirates somehow lost money while spending like $80 million on a team last year.

"All other costs, including administration, staff, travel, development, draft, international, stadium ops, analytics and way more: $171.7 million"

He just says this without providing any sort of numbers for where this is coming from.

Beginning story about the pirates/ Nutting from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (Mark Belko) from March 16, 2025.

Over the past three years the Pittsburgh Pirates, under owner Bob Nutting, have made more money selling tickets, hot dogs, beer and other concessions at PNC Park than they’ve spent on the teams they’ve fielded.

The Pirates collected $215.6 million in net ticket and concession revenues between 2022 and 2024. Over that same period, player salaries totaled $214 million — or about $1.6 million less, based on a Pittsburgh Post-Gazette analysis of the club’s audited financial statements.

In all three of those seasons, the team’s payroll was among the lowest in Major League Baseball — even as the club hauled in additional revenue from MLB and national TV deals estimated by Baseball Prospectus to be in the ballpark of $60 million a year.

The findings for the three seasons after the 2020 and 2021 pandemic years probably won’t sit well with Pirates fans fed up with losing and what they perceive as the team’s penny-pinching ways.

 

[Snooki Stackhouse]

Re: the "Special Report"

The implication in that article is that Nutting is doing the best he can with limited gate revenue. Like his spending is downstream of the demand for tickets, and revenue is completely out of his control. I think most of us would agree that if you build it, they will come.

Also, within the past year or two I remember reading on DKPS about the contingent of extras and superfluous employees traveling around with the team and mulling around in the locker rooms without purpose. Increasing org payroll no doubt. Yet that's conveniently left out of this article.

The article seemingly proves that Nutting isn't a glutton, but fails to identify that at best Nutting is an overly conservative operator of businesses without any idea of how to increase revenue and improve the product.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Re: the "Special Report"

The implication in that article is that Nutting is doing the best he can with limited gate revenue. Like his spending is downstream of the demand for tickets, and revenue is completely out of his control. I think most of us would agree that if you build it, they will come.

Also, within the past year or two I remember reading on DKPS about the contingent of extras and superfluous employees traveling around with the team and mulling around in the locker rooms without purpose. Increasing org payroll no doubt. Yet that's conveniently left out of this article.

The article seemingly proves that Nutting isn't a glutton, but fails to identify that at best Nutting is an overly conservative operator of businesses without any idea of how to increase revenue and improve the product.

I think thats exactly what it states, very risk averse, conservative operator that has troubling increasing revenues and while spending those revenues, might not be spending them wisely.

 

[BusinessGoose]

Not just an issue with the pirates, every MLB team has an ABSURD amount of staff that seem to just be hanging out and getting paid

I don't even know why there's 60 people in a dugout it seems

 

[ChaosAgent]

Not just an issue with the pirates, every MLB team has an ABSURD amount of staff that seem to just be hanging out and getting paid

I don't even know why there's 60 people in a dugout it seems

I'll never criticize people for being employed. I don't but that Bob is losing money, but I do but that he is a terrible nepo businessman whose family industry died and has no alternatives to meaningfully make money aside from sitting on this asset as it appreciates.

But yes, player payroll being only 30% of cost or whatever is...uh, odd.