OT: Pirates Talk: Lets Play Ball

[DJ Spinoza]

It's not even really worth wondering about it for obvious reasons, but I guess the only somewhat-Pirates related way to look at this is whether you would be willing to part with Bubba in a deal where you sent Hayes out for the BS salary relief, and then probably still another legit prospect, in order to have Boston pay some of it down.

It's a hard comparison to make on many levels, and the fact that we wouldn't do it even then probably doesn't make it worth hashing out at all, but that's all I've got. Hicks/Harrison are more established in MLB, but not really that great. Harrison has improved this year but he doesn't seem like a high ceiling pitcher at all, more just a guy that's gonna be cheap for a bit and be in a rotation. Tibbs is nothing special so far.

The obvious motivation was all the drama between the GM and him, plus taking the full-on contract. From Boston's end, cleanly getting out of all of it might be worth it, but they aren't going to be left with anything unless there's some surprise on their end. If we want to suspend any logic or reason and entertain what I said above from the Pirates' POV, I think you'd have to do it. Everyone thinks Devers will age poorly, but that's a totally irrelevant talking point if the hypothetical is "win with Skenes or die" (which it should be for just about anything... you are Charlie Brown with Lucy and the football if you think the Pirates are gonna build a sustainable contender that keeps churning talent...).

This post is pretty much pointless, though. It's a trade that came out of nowhere because a team was willing to take on a huge contract to get a dynamic impact offensive player in the prime of his career. We aren't that team and never will be, even under strained hypothetical situations.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Devers is one of the 10-20th best hitters in baseball and really shows no signs of slowing down on that front. In an org bereft of offensive talent like ours it is inconceivable to let such a player go, even if he was eating up 30% of the payroll

 

[MrBrightside]

Since May 1, in 41 games, Pirates starting pitchers have a 2.97 ERA. That’s the best mark in baseball.

Since May 1, the Pirates offense has scored 124 runs. That’s the worst mark in baseball.

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/pirates/2025/06/15/pirates-cubs-mitch-keller-ian-happ-mlb-nl-central/stories/202506120098

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Devers is one of the 10-20th best hitters in baseball and really shows no signs of slowing down on that front. In an org bereft of offensive talent like ours it is inconceivable to let such a player go, even if he was eating up 30% of the payroll

His issue is on defense and even on the Giants he is a DH. Champen is the everyday 3rd baseman

 

[ChaosAgent]

His issue is on defense and even on the Giants he is a DH. Champen is the everyday 3rd baseman

Yes, and he is a great DH and will continue to be through his age 35-36 season. He is not slowing down.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Yes, and he is a great DH and will continue to be through his age 35-36 season. He is not slowing down.

If guess if we traded for him we could flip Renyolds. Hypothetically
Boston has a ton of young hitters and now got some high end pitching

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Hadn't seen this, which makes the rambling I did even more of a circular intellectual exercise.

This is just an absolutely insane trade. They got marginal crap back, and Harrison is going directly to AAA. The only way to make sense of it is that things have become incredibly sour between the front office and Devers and they just wanted a clean break.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Hadn't seen this, which makes the rambling I did even more of a circular intellectual exercise.

This is just an absolutely insane trade. They got marginal crap back, and Harrison is going directly to AAA. The only way to make sense of it is that things have become incredibly sour between the front office and Devers and they just wanted a clean break.

Doncic-esque. Not quite Doncic's level but the falling out between FO and player and the FO wants to rid itself of the player with no leaks.

If the Red Sox are looking for more pitching, something around some combination of Keller, Heaney and Mlod for Abreu would be a nice matchup in a trade.

Keller + Mlod for Abreu + Jhostynxon Garcia. One terrible name to spell for another. Seems fair-ish.

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

"You MFers fired Mike Sullivan?! I WANT OUT!"

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Hadn't seen this, which makes the rambling I did even more of a circular intellectual exercise.

This is just an absolutely insane trade. They got marginal crap back, and Harrison is going directly to AAA. The only way to make sense of it is that things have become incredibly sour between the front office and Devers and they just wanted a clean break.

Yes they soured on him because he refused to play 3rd when Bregman got hurt or try 1st when they had an injury there

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Doncic-esque. Not quite Doncic's level but the falling out between FO and player and the FO wants to rid itself of the player with no leaks.

If the Red Sox are looking for more pitching, something around some combination of Keller, Heaney and Mlod for Abreu would be a nice matchup in a trade.

Keller + Mlod for Abreu + Jhostynxon Garcia. One terrible name to spell for another. Seems fair-ish.

I still think the tricky thing with trading Keller is that it makes the floor for the team a lot worse. I know I made the long post speculating about a Duran match last week, but fundamentally, I think it'd be easier to draw up a Keller deal if we had healthy Oviedo or still had Ortiz- i.e., someone to count on for a chunk of quality innings to slide behind Skenes.

The other wrinkle with it is that I think Keller is a more valuable guy for an offseason trade as opposed to the deadline, since he'd be more of a third option in a playoff series.

Still, the basic problem is that we are backed into a corner because of the unwillingness to spend money. I'm not sure I have the right answer, and Boston's outlook also seems strange at this point. They are probably good enough to try to add a bit and make a run at a WC spot, but I don't think they are quite good enough to make a playoff run and they just gave away their best player. The name of the game for them might be trying to sort out their situation and playing the young guys.

It's a good matchup on paper because of their needs / ours vs their strengths / ours, but I don't know if there's a way to carve a trade that doesn't involve either Keller or Chandler. That probably = no Abreu, though it also seemed to be the case that Abreu was valued very highly by them internally, so maybe he's not even available.

To me, everything points towards Duran as the player who will be shopped, but his value is tricky and I think there will be lots of skeptics. If the Red Sox are a bit antsy and the offers don't pour in, maybe he becomes available in more of a prospect-laden deal and we can use our depth to get an above average bat. Seems like too much wishful thinking, though.

The other spare part on Boston is Yoshida, but he makes a very sizable salary and is basically a DH with middling power. Even if his salary were paid down and he didn't cost much to acquire, it doesn't make a lot of sense for us.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I still think the tricky thing with trading Keller is that it makes the floor for the team a lot worse. I know I made the long post speculating about a Duran match last week, but fundamentally, I think it'd be easier to draw up a Keller deal if we had healthy Oviedo or still had Ortiz- i.e., someone to count on for a chunk of quality innings to slide behind Skenes.

The other wrinkle with it is that I think Keller is a more valuable guy for an offseason trade as opposed to the deadline, since he'd be more of a third option in a playoff series.

Still, the basic problem is that we are backed into a corner because of the unwillingness to spend money. I'm not sure I have the right answer, and Boston's outlook also seems strange at this point. They are probably good enough to try to add a bit and make a run at a WC spot, but I don't think they are quite good enough to make a playoff run and they just gave away their best player. The name of the game for them might be trying to sort out their situation and playing the young guys.

It's a good matchup on paper because of their needs / ours vs their strengths / ours, but I don't know if there's a way to carve a trade that doesn't involve either Keller or Chandler. That probably = no Abreu, though it also seemed to be the case that Abreu was valued very highly by them internally, so maybe he's not even available.

To me, everything points towards Duran as the player who will be shopped, but his value is tricky and I think there will be lots of skeptics. If the Red Sox are a bit antsy and the offers don't pour in, maybe he becomes available in more of a prospect-laden deal and we can use our depth to get an above average bat. Seems like too much wishful thinking, though.

The other spare part on Boston is Yoshida, but he makes a very sizable salary and is basically a DH with middling power. Even if his salary were paid down and he didn't cost much to acquire, it doesn't make a lot of sense for us.

I'm of the mindset that we are going for 2026 anyway. The offense, beyond Davis getting much better, needs two things:

1) Replace Hayes with a 3B who can actually hit. This to me is a non-negotiable. Hayes's bat kills this team and now has for the last 2 years. In the event that 3b defense is critically necessary, especially in late games, we still have Triolo. Hayes is not even better than Triolo as a hitter.
2) Solidify OF with a good addition. BC failed with Olivares and BDLC, and Suwinski failed himself (he is due for another shot, but not optimistic about it). But that does notean that he or a new GM should stop trying.

Keller is pretty good, but we have gotten better performances from Falter and Heaney this year. Burrows has been great. Barco looks promising. Oviedo will come back eventually.

At some point we have to trade pitching for hitting since we are unwilling / unable to pursue FA. So Keller is the most logical choice. It would/should have been Jones, but that ship already sailed.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

I have said it before but Keller is jack flaretty its an added bonus he is cost controlled so teams who struggle to attract free agents know he is signed long term.
Ikf Keller are the biggest trade chips we have

 

[MrBrightside]

Hadn't seen this, which makes the rambling I did even more of a circular intellectual exercise.

This is just an absolutely insane trade. They got marginal crap back, and Harrison is going directly to AAA. The only way to make sense of it is that things have become incredibly sour between the front office and Devers and they just wanted a clean break.

Seems pretty clear it was a salary dump. The Giants were willing to take on the full freight of the remaining contract and Boston didn't think it would age well. Not saying it was a good move, but I think that was clearly the intent. Have to think the idea of FSG selling a stake in the Pens at the same time this happens are related.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Considering this team suck i cant imagine why were not agressively shopping heany and getting chandler up.

 

[TimmyD]

Cy Young is for best pitcher, not most valuable. If the voters are mindful of that, Skenes wins, easily. At least as of now.

He’s not going to win the Cy Young with a losing record

 

[TimmyD]

imagine if Cherington would have added real bats at 1b and OF to start this season.........what a waste

Kyle Tucker was right there to be had.That’s the piece they should have added.

 

[TimmyD]

People are surprised the Pirates didn’t trade for Devers? Really? There are about 313 million reasons why they didn’t trade for him

 

[MrBrightside]

People are surprised the Pirates didn’t trade for Devers? Really? There are about 313 million reasons why they didn’t trade for him

Who is surprised by that?

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I'm of the mindset that we are going for 2026 anyway. The offense, beyond Davis getting much better, needs two things:

1) Replace Hayes with a 3B who can actually hit. This to me is a non-negotiable. Hayes's bat kills this team and now has for the last 2 years. In the event that 3b defense is critically necessary, especially in late games, we still have Triolo. Hayes is not even better than Triolo as a hitter.
2) Solidify OF with a good addition. BC failed with Olivares and BDLC, and Suwinski failed himself (he is due for another shot, but not optimistic about it). But that does notean that he or a new GM should stop trying.

Keller is pretty good, but we have gotten better performances from Falter and Heaney this year. Burrows has been great. Barco looks promising. Oviedo will come back eventually.

At some point we have to trade pitching for hitting since we are unwilling / unable to pursue FA. So Keller is the most logical choice. It would/should have been Jones, but that ship already sailed.

I agree on all fronts, but with the eye to 2026, I just think losing Keller is going to create more problems than it solves. The one caveat I suppose is if we think that Falter will continue to establish himself and really be a workhorse mid-rotation guy as opposed to a guy who is quite reliable, especially in good matchups, but still needs to be managed aggressively vs the third time through the order.

Still, there's no good answer given the offensive needs. Maybe a team comes knocking for Mlod or Ashcraft as an upside play, but the return there will be a similar upside play from our perspective and not any kind of impact bat.

Subtracting 200ish consistent, quality innings is such a big obstacle for a team that might at best be a true talent .500 team. It can be done, but it would take the trifecta of injury luck, right-tail outcomes pretty quickly from Chandler + one more, and the yearly veteran $5 free agency pickup.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I have said it before but Keller is jack flaretty its an added bonus he is cost controlled so teams who struggle to attract free agents know he is signed long term.
Ikf Keller are the biggest trade chips we have

I have always been Keller-skeptical. I think he is a valuable pitcher worth his contract and many teams would want him. But I have seen him get shelled way too many times against quality lineups to think he can win a playoff game. Maybe the league disagrees. He will probably be dealt and Garner something.

IKF, Heaney, Bednar are all valuable assets. I think Mlod could be a killer asset as a multi-inning reliever. If they can somehow dump Hayes and get assets for the other guys it will be a successful last deadline for BC.

 

[MrBrightside]

People let great be the enemy of good with Keller. He's not a star and he's never going to be, but guys who have his track record of being durable MOR starters are increasingly rare and are quite valuable. Flaherty is an ok comp from a performance standpoint but Keller has been far more durable.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

I have always been Keller-skeptical. I think he is a valuable pitcher worth his contract and many teams would want him. But I have seen him get shelled way too many times against quality lineups to think he can win a playoff game. Maybe the league disagrees. He will probably be dealt and Garner something.

IKF, Heaney, Bednar are all valuable assets. I think Mlod could be a killer asset as a multi-inning reliever. If they can somehow dump Hayes and get assets for the other guys it will be a successful last deadline for BC.

Yeah if Bednar isn’t traded this deadline he never will be. Heaney is was signed to be flipped not expecting much but a lottery ticket or 2

 

[ChaosAgent]

Yeah if Bednar isn’t traded this deadline he never will be. Heaney is was signed to be flipped not expecting much but a lottery ticket or 2

Heaney will get something good. Quintana did.

I will be very interested in Mlod and what happens there. I have the sense that he would stay out of the bullpen on a contender, but if he is going to play for this shitty team he would insist on starting. "We're not going anywhere anyway, let me realize my goal." But based on how he pitched last year and the 1st-3rd innings this year he would absolutely be a weapon in 2-inning stints. If BC spins him right he could fetch a haul. He could also lead the bullpen next year here but he is not interested in that.