Pierre Turgeon's Place In History?

[Copmuter*]

1st overall pick by the Sabres in the '87 draft, Pierre Turgeon went on to amass 515 goals and 1327 points in 1294 games

*finished 5th in Hart voting in '93 after leading the Islanders in scoring with 58 goals and 132 points... 2nd in scoring that year was Steve Thomas with 87 points


Other notable centers of his era and their PPG ranking all-time:

15. Sakic 1.191
17. LaFontaine 1.171
18. Yzerman 1.159
19. Lindros 1.138
31. Nicholls 1.073
33. Oates 1.062
40. Francis 1.039
42. Turgeon 1.026
50. Sundin 1.003
78. Gilmour .959
82. Fedorov .945
98. Modano .917
111. Nieuwendyk .896
112. Roenick .892


If Francis is considered the 35th best center of all-time around these parts, how is it that Turgeon can't crack the top 60?

The guy had a Hall of Fame career, where's the respect?

 

[Pominville Knows]

The guy had a Hall of Fame career, where's the respect?

Not the last time i looked. His name was nowhere to be found.

 

[solidmotion]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1607121

 

[Big Phil]

Turgeon falls into the trap of having a high batting average but not enough runs batted in. His numbers are nice, but so are Bernie Nicholls'. So were Marc Savard's at one point. He scored 515 goals but can anyone remember a single one? That's the big thing here. Was he a big game player? Did he do anything in the postseason? Did he do anything else besides score rather well? Was he a leader? Good defensively? Physical? Did he win? Would a team with him as their best player win? Did he have a lot of heart?

Look, all of these questions are pretty much "no" for him. He didn't stand out, he scored and was forgotten. If he had more seasons like 1993 this would be a different story but he didn't. He was soft, he almost looked scared on the ice at times. And during his career you wouldn't have dared compare him to Sakic, Modano, Yzerman, Forsberg, Fedorov, Lindros, etc. In fact, you would have wanted Gilmour, Recchi, Shanahan, Roenick, Oates, even Lafontaine on your team before them.

There was a stigma about Turgeon that he could never shake. He just never was thought of as a superstar player.

 

[Sticks and Pucks]

I am too young to remember Turgeon in his prime but from what I've heard, he wasn't much of a leader. It started in the 1987 WJC when Turgeon was the only skater who chose not to stand up for his teammates during Canada's brawl with Russia. Sounds like a guy who didn't really care about his team and only himself.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Its really too bad Hunter cowardly injured him in the 93 playoffs. That may have been his time to shine considering the Isles played the Habs in the next round. Even if they lost and he had made a solid impact in that playoff series, he may be remembered more favorably.

 

[Copmuter*]

Turgeon falls into the trap of having a high batting average but not enough runs batted in. His numbers are nice, but so are Bernie Nicholls'. So were Marc Savard's at one point. He scored 515 goals but can anyone remember a single one? That's the big thing here. Was he a big game player? Did he do anything in the postseason? Did he do anything else besides score rather well? Was he a leader? Good defensively? Physical? Did he win? Would a team with him as their best player win? Did he have a lot of heart?

Look, all of these questions are pretty much "no" for him. He didn't stand out, he scored and was forgotten. If he had more seasons like 1993 this would be a different story but he didn't. He was soft, he almost looked scared on the ice at times. And during his career you wouldn't have dared compare him to Sakic, Modano, Yzerman, Forsberg, Fedorov, Lindros, etc. In fact, you would have wanted Gilmour, Recchi, Shanahan, Roenick, Oates, even Lafontaine on your team before them.

There was a stigma about Turgeon that he could never shake. He just never was thought of as a superstar player.

Nichols is an interesting comparison and I would have no problem if he were inducted into the Hall

He is one of only 8 players in NHL history to score 70 goals in one season, and one of 5 to score 150 points


I fail to see why a player like Joe Mullen is more deserving of induction than either Turgeon or Nichols

 

[Evincar]

Nichols is an interesting comparison and I would have no problem if he were inducted into the Hall

He is one of only 8 players in NHL history to score 70 goals in one season, and one of 5 to score 150 points


I fail to see why a player like Joe Mullen is more deserving of induction than either Turgeon or Nichols

Mullen shouldnt be in the HOF and same with a bunch of other players of his ilk like Ciccarelli, Gartner, Anderson.

Say Turgeon is deserving of induction because he's comparable to the scrubs of HOF is a lame point.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Nichols is an interesting comparison and I would have no problem if he were inducted into the Hall

He is one of only 8 players in NHL history to score 70 goals in one season, and one of 5 to score 150 points


I fail to see why a player like Joe Mullen is more deserving of induction than either Turgeon or Nichols

joe mullen was a far better two-way player than turgeon ever was, and was far better than nicholls was in his prime. nicholls, as i recall, got better when jacques lemaire got ahold of him in new jersey.

furthermore, mullen won three stanley cups, as a front line contributor on one, very good secondary scorer on another. he also led the playoffs in goals twice. turgeon has no memorable playoff runs (unless you count the memorableness of dale hunter cheap-shotting him), and while he was a consistently good playoff performer, nicholls's best playoff run (the now-underrated '91 run with edmonton) would be mullen's fourth best, or maybe even fifth best.

and honestly, i don't know that mullen's peak season (4th in goals, 7th in points) is all that far off from turgeon's (6th in goals, 5th in points) or even nicholls's (2nd in goals, 4th in points) if you factor for gretzky. and after all, mullen did follow that regular season with a top 10 all-time playoff goals total en route to the cup.

mullen is admittedly a pretty borderline HHOFer, but turgeon and nicholls are below the cut in comparison.

 

[Copmuter*]

Mullen shouldnt be in the HOF and same with a bunch of other players of his ilk like Ciccarelli, Gartner, Anderson.

Say Turgeon is deserving of induction because he's comparable to the scrubs of HOF is a lame point.

I also compared him statistically to a number of players in the OP

Please let me know if that's lame as well

 

[Crosbyfan]

I am too young to remember Turgeon in his prime but from what I've heard, he wasn't much of a leader. It started in the 1987 WJC when Turgeon was the only skater who chose not to stand up for his teammates during Canada's brawl with Russia. Sounds like a guy who didn't really care about his team and only himself.

When I read the thread title this is the first thing I thought of, fairly or not.

He may have stayed on the bench on principal (of some sort), rather than on fear or indifference to his teammates but, Historically speaking, that is an image that stands out.

 

[unknown33]

scored 515 goals but can anyone remember a single one?

That's pretty funny, Pierre Turgeon is among those players with ONE specific goal that everybody remembers.

 

[Crosbyfan]

That's pretty funny, if there a player with ONE goal that everyone remembers it's Pierre Turgeon.

I don't remember the goal...but I think I recall what happened right after

 

[Big Phil]

That's pretty funny, Pierre Turgeon is among those players with ONE specific goal that everybody remembers.

I think we tend to remember what happened directly after that goal rather than that goal. You are talking about the Hunter hit right? Maybe things work out differently for Turgeon without the Hunter hit, but his perimeter play and timid passion on the ice didn't help him much. He got the nickname "Tin Man" from his Buffalo days, then the great 1993 season, then the Hunter hit and he was back to Tin Man the rest of his career.

I'll throw another name out there, would anyone have taken Turgeon on their team over Fleury for instance? I don't think there was ever a time other than perhaps 1993 that I would have wanted Turgeon on my team over Fleury. And Fleury is not in the HHOF yet and may not for a while, who knows.

Turgeon just had little substance to his game, that's what killed him.

 

[Crosbyfan]

I think we tend to remember what happened directly after that goal rather than that goal. You are talking about the Hunter hit right? Maybe things work out differently for Turgeon without the Hunter hit, but his perimeter play and timid passion on the ice didn't help him much. He got the nickname "Tin Man" from his Buffalo days, then the great 1993 season, then the Hunter hit and he was back to Tin Man the rest of his career.

I'll throw another name out there, would anyone have taken Turgeon on their team over Fleury for instance? I don't think there was ever a time other than perhaps 1993 that I would have wanted Turgeon on my team over Fleury. And Fleury is not in the HHOF yet and may not for a while, who knows.

Turgeon just had little substance to his game, that's what killed him.

Well...a couple of those Fleury years were pretty bad...

 

[Big Phil]

Well...a couple of those Fleury years were pretty bad...

I would say substandard to what we were used to. But throw in Fleury's character, heart, all around play and ability to raise his game and lead his team and I can tell you I wouldn't even blink if someone asked me who I'd want on my team. All of those first round losses Calgary had in the early to mid 1990s were because of everyone else but Fleury. Look at his production in those years in the playoffs. He did everything he could. Give me that guy anyday.

And the years that Turgeon would have clearly outpointed him (1993 and 1997) I wouldn't hesitate to take Fleury on my team was the playoffs started. No one thought Fleury was without substance.

 

[seventieslord]

That's pretty funny, Pierre Turgeon is among those players with ONE specific goal that everybody remembers.

and that game 7 double OT one too...

 

[Crosbyfan]

I would say substandard to what we were used to. But throw in Fleury's character, heart, all around play and ability to raise his game and lead his team and I can tell you I wouldn't even blink if someone asked me who I'd want on my team. All of those first round losses Calgary had in the early to mid 1990s were because of everyone else but Fleury. Look at his production in those years in the playoffs. He did everything he could. Give me that guy anyday.

And the years that Turgeon would have clearly outpointed him (1993 and 1997) I wouldn't hesitate to take Fleury on my team was the playoffs started. No one thought Fleury was without substance.

The years I was referring to, post Flames, were definitely with substances...

...that said I always liked Fleury and felt bad for those years where he fought with his addictions.

 

[sr edler]

He scored 515 goals but can anyone remember a single one?

I remember that goal he scored on the Capitals in the 93 playoffs.

 

[Vaclav Varada]

Spezza somewhat reminds me of Turgeon. Wont end up with nearly the same point totals but both were/are considered above average but not a true super star.

 

[seventieslord]

Spezza somewhat reminds me of Turgeon. Wont end up with nearly the same point totals but both were/are considered above average but not a true super star.

That is true... Turgeon was like, if you were to combine Spezza and Savard's best 12 years, you'd have his best 12 years.

 

[Big Phil]

Spezza somewhat reminds me of Turgeon. Wont end up with nearly the same point totals but both were/are considered above average but not a true super star.

Yeah pretty much. Injury prone, misses chunks of the season that might have helped him crawl up the scoring charts. Tends to be soft. Spezza at least has had consideration to be on Team Canada though (2006 for example). Definitely someone who isn't a guy that you'd expect to lead a Cup run with. Not someone who matched up with the best centers in the NHL very well. Rarely thought of as even a top 10 center in the NHL. Yes, they are comparable.

 

[Copmuter*]

Oates has never represented Canada in anything... and the last time Ron Francis played in an international event was '85

Why would anybody hold it against Turgeon for not cracking Team Canada's lineup?


Francis was lucky to play his prime years with Jagr and Lemieux, otherwise I don't think he would be viewed any differently than Turgeon

 

[seventieslord]

Oates has never represented Canada in anything... and the last time Ron Francis played in an international event was '85

Why would anybody hold it against Turgeon for not cracking Team Canada's lineup?


I think if Francis hadn't been lucky enough to play his prime years with Jagr and Lemieux, I don't think he would be viewed any differently than Turgeon

Better defensively and more durable. But yes.

 

[Copmuter*]

Better defensively and more durable. But yes.

I think most would be surprised to learn that Francis is minus 10 for his career

Turgeon, on the other hand, is plus 139