Pick or Playoffs?

[cgf]

I strongly disagree. By far the worst outcome would have been the collapse continuing and finishing bottom five. The collapse would have been a complete return to the 2016/17 season, which was one of the worst seasons and collapses in recent NHL history. Anything positive built last season would have been wiped out.

Everything would have needed re-evaluation if the collapse had continued in 2016/17 fashion. What would it have meant for Gabriel Landeskog and the rest of this core, after Landeskog explicitly promised the 2016/17 season would never be repeated under his watch? How do you fix a locker-room of core players that has experienced a collapse like that twice in 2/3 seasons? The entire offseason would once again have been about cleaning out the garbage and tentatively going into the season praying it won't happen again...although this time, given it would have hypothetically happened twice in three years, could anyone really trust the core not to let it happen again? Could they even have trusted themselves? Picks don't fix a toxic and broken culture.

Turning it around -- as they appear to be doing -- even if they miss the playoffs is the best thing that could happen to this team right now. Even if they miss the playoffs, at least they aren't going into the offseason on a massive slide that lasted from December 1st - April second guessing themselves and their ability to avoid a complete breakdown. At least the offseason can perhaps be focused on making the playoffs and building a contender out of the positives of this season (a really strong start and hopefully a strong finish, marred by two terrible months of hockey that they hopefully will have completely worked themselves out of), not on fixing an utterly dysfunctional club with a group of extremely frustrated players.

The Avs already have a top pick lined up (thanks Ottawa) -- by far the most important thing for the actual Avs team is to finish this season on the highest note they can, with the ultimate goal being the playoffs (but still not the end of the world, at least, if they finish 1-5 points out), their own pick be hanged.

 

[cgf]

Barely missing the playoffs is no man's land, its the worst place to finish because there are no playoffs and the pick is not that great either. The NHL is a league that rewards losing, not finishing middle of the pack.

A few more wins here and there are not going to change what kind of a team they are. The Avs are at best a wildcard team with no chance of doing anything in the playoffs this year. Getting another blue chip prospect on top of Makar and the Ottawa pick would transform the entire hockey team, barely missing out would not help as much.

I definitely am hoping to make the playoffs, but if I have to choose between a top 10 pick or a the 14th pick then its an easy decision.

This is absolute nonsense in our case. Yet another great pick isn't going to change the culture of failure that's washed over the organization this past decade. 12 years is more than enough tanking for this team to make some sort of progress & show that they don't need to catch the league off guard to fluke their way into the playoffs.

 

[AvsFan29]

That's nonsense. Yet another great pick isn't going to change the culture of failure that's washed over the organization this past decade. 12 years is more than enough tanking for this team to make some sort of progress.

I think he's saying that a higher pick is better just missing the playoffs, which is true.

Good thing is, barely missing the playoffs, and falling into the bottom 10, isn't as much of a jump as it is usually.

 

[cgf]

I think he's saying that a higher pick is better just missing the playoffs, which is true.

Good thing is, barely missing the playoffs, and falling into the bottom 10, isn't as much of a jump as it is usually.

It's not true for us though. Barely missing the playoffs is infinitely better for us than had we continued to collapse into a second top 5 pick for all of the reasons that Avs44 mentioned. If our pick falls to 4th or 5th, that would be a real disaster.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

That's nonsense. Yet another great pick isn't going to change the culture of failure that's washed over the organization this past decade. 12 years is more than enough tanking for this team to make some sort of progress.

The difference of having a top 10 pick this year and barely missing out of the playoffs could be just a few wins. Whether the Avs get those few more wins or not does not change the culture of the organisation. Its going to change once Sakic builds a team capable of achieving something more than a wildcard spot, top picks just happen to be the best way to improve a team fortunes for good.

It's not true for us though. Barely missing the playoffs is infinitely better for us than had we continued to collapse into a second top 5 pick for all of the reasons that Avs44 mentioned. If our pick falls to 4th or 5th, that would be a real disaster.

It doesn't even need to be a total collapse. Even the 10th pick is better than having the 14th pick, its just the way it is.

 

[AvsFan29]

It's not true for us though. Barely missing the playoffs is infinitely better for us than had we continued to collapse into a second top 5 pick for all of the reasons that Avs44 mentioned. If our pick falls to 4th or 5th, that would be a real disaster.

Except you don't know that.

 

[cgf]

The difference of having a top 10 pick this year and barely missing out of the playoffs could be just a few wins. Whether the Avs get those few more wins or not does not change the culture of the organisation. Its going to change once Sakic builds a team capable of achieving something more than a wildcard spot, top picks just happen to be the best way to improve a team fortunes for good.

How many more top talents do we have to watch leave this franchise because they don't want to waste their careers on a team that can only make the playoffs twice a decade; before we realize that top picks don't mean shit if you never bother to build a team around them or try to win?

 

[cgf]

Except you don't know that.

Sure I do, my crystal ball said so.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

How many more top talents do we have to watch leave this franchise because they don't want to waste their careers on a team that can only make the playoffs twice a decade; before we realize that top picks don't mean **** if you never bother to build a team around them or try to win?

We are only talking about this season and about a hypothetical situation where the Avs would barely miss the playoffs. This raging about the Avs past brings nothing to the conversation.

 

[cgf]

We are only talking about this season and about a hypothetical situation where the Avs would barely miss the playoffs. This raging about the Avs past brings nothing to the conversation.

You can't talk about this season without talking about the years that have brought us to this point, or the future roadblocks that we can already anticipate. It's ignoring context, which brings nothing to a conversation.

 

[ABasin]

How many more top talents do we have to watch leave this franchise because they don't want to waste their careers on a team that can only make the playoffs twice a decade; before we realize that top picks don't mean **** if you never bother to build a team around them or try to win?

Top picks also don't mean **** if they don't use those picks to pick good players. The Avs seem to bomb a 1st round pick just about every other year.

-AB

 

[AvsFan29]

You can't talk about this season without talking about the years that have brought us to this point, or the future roadblocks that we can already anticipate. It's ignoring context, which brings nothing to a conversation.

It's a bit hard to argue that this team will be better off 3 years from now because they picked 15th, and barely missed the playoffs, than they would be if they picked 7th or 8th.

Obviously they will be better off with the higher pick.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

You can't talk about this season without talking about the years that have brought us to this point, or the future roadblocks that we can already anticipate. It's ignoring context, which brings nothing to a conversation.

In this hypothetical situation making the playoffs is not a possibility. The discussion was whether its better to barely miss or finish a few spots below to get a better pick. The season would be lost regardless and no playoff games could be played. The culture of the team would not chance in any way, it would still be a losing roster.

 

[ABasin]

It's a bit hard to argue that this team will be better off 3 years from now because they picked 15th, and barely missed the playoffs, than they would be if they picked 7th or 8th.

Obviously they will be better off with the higher pick.

At this point, I just want to see them get actual NHL players with their 1st round picks, regardless of draft position. The franchise simply cannot keep missing on their 1sts.

A depth player or two with non-1st round picks would be nice also.

-AB

 

[AvsFan29]

At this point, I just want to see them get actual NHL players with their 1st round picks, regardless of draft position. The franchise simply cannot keep missing on their 1sts.

A depth player or two with non-1st round picks would be nice also.

-AB

Absolutely. We can't afford to miss on this draft. It's pretty clear that this team has struggled over the years due to poor drafting. The last good draft we had was the Duchene / Orielly / Barrie draft.

-EF

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Top picks also don't mean **** if they don't use those picks to pick good players. The Avs seem to bomb a 1st round pick just about every other year.

-AB

Since 2010 (9 f***ing years ago) the Avs have drafted and developed 3 successful NHL hockey players (4 if you consider Jost one). Landeskog (2nd overall), Mackinnon (1st overall) and Rantanen (10th overall). They have drafted 61 players in that time.

 

[ABasin]

Absolutely. We can't afford to miss on this draft. It's pretty clear that this team has struggled over the years due to poor drafting. The last good draft we had was the Duchene / Orielly / Barrie draft.

-EF

We discussed this last week, but that 2009 draft literally saved the franchise.

The Avs have completely missed on a #11, a #17, a #23, and likely a #10 pick over the past 9 years. And in those same 9 years, didn't draft a single NHL-worthy skater after the 1st round.

You simply can't do that and build a quality playoff team.

-AB

 

[cgf]

Top picks also don't mean **** if they don't use those picks to pick good players. The Avs seem to bomb a 1st round pick just about every other year.

-AB

Eh, since the rebuild started Siemens and Jost are the only lottery picks I have any gripes with...and my gripe with Jost is mostly about picking a forward over one of the (much better) blueliners that were available at that pick, since Keller was the only forward I loved at that spot & he was already off the board...whereas all of the other top picks were at least good, and in the case of Mikko we got arguably the best 10th overall pick of the cap-era. Top picks are the only part of the draft where we've actually done pretty well...it's later picks, especially outside of the top 40, where we've just had absolutely abysmal results.

It's a bit hard to argue that this team will be better off 3 years from now because they picked 15th, and barely missed the playoffs, than they would be if they picked 7th or 8th.

Obviously they will be better off with the higher pick.

I don't see anything obvious about why they'd be better off with the higher pick. Barely missing would at least show that last year wasn't a fluke, it would help the core believe in themselves, it would help us recruit in FA (including with our own stars), and it would help us continue our momentum...rather than planting even more doubt & reinforcing the notion that we can only ever fluke our way into the playoffs when the rest of the league forgets about us.

This 'one step forward, two steps back, and repeat until you have to trade core-pieces for futures' BS has to stop if we ever want to break the cycle and avoid ending up trying to convince ourselves that Rebuild 3.0 will be the one that will actually accomplish something & that we never really liked that McGinnon loser anyway.

 

[ABasin]

Since 2010 (9 ****ing years ago) the Avs have drafted and developed 3 successful NHL hockey players (4 if you consider Jost one). Landeskog (2nd overall), Mackinnon (1st overall) and Rantanen (10th overall). They have drafted 61 players in that time.

Evidently, we were typing our posts at the same time.

But yes, I agree. It's the reason why the Avs don't have depth, haven't had depth, and won't have depth, unless they fix it.

But one possible correction for both of us: Can we consider Pickard to be a successful NHL player at this point?

-AB

 

[AvsFan29]

I don't see anything obvious about why they'd be better off with the higher pick.

A top 10 pick is much better than a 14-16, and infinitely better than a pick in the 20s, on average.

Pretty sure anything past 22 is no more likely to play in the NHL than a 5th rounder.

 

[ABasin]

Eh, since the rebuild started Siemens and Jost are the only lottery picks I have any gripes with...and my gripe with Jost is mostly about picking a forward over one of the (much better) blueliners that were available at that pick, since Keller was the only forward I loved at that spot & he was already off the board...whereas all of the other top picks were at least good, and in the case of Mikko we got arguably the best 10th overall pick of the cap-era. Top picks are the only part of the draft where we've actually done pretty well...it's later picks, especially outside of the top 40, where we've just had absolutely abysmal results.


I don't see anything obvious about why they'd be better off with the higher pick. Barely missing would at least show that last year wasn't a fluke, it would help the core believe in themselves, it would help us recruit in FA (including with our own stars), and it would help us continue our momentum...rather than planting even more doubt & reinforcing the notion that we can only ever fluke our way into the playoffs when the rest of the league forgets about us.

This 'one step forward, two steps back, and repeat until you have to trade core-pieces for futures' BS has to stop if we ever want to break the cycle and avoid ending up trying to convince ourselves that Rebuild 3.0 will be the one that will actually accomplish something & that we never really liked that McGinnon loser anyway.

Regardless of position, regardless of where in the first round they're picking, they need to pick actual NHL players with those picks.

I don't want to go too far down a rathole with this, but can you imagine if Colorado chose McEvoy instead of Jost (picked 4 spots after Jost) and Pastrnak instead of Bleackley (picked 2 spots after Bleackley), what the team would look like? Even having blown those other two 1st round picks?

The Avs simply cannot build depth, nor retain high end talent, if they don't stop blowing drafts. Their only other option is to sell off their thin high-end talent to revitalize their prospect pool, which needs revitalization because they keep blowing drafts.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

-AB

 

[AvsFan29]

Regardless of position, regardless of where in the first round they're picking, they need to pick actual NHL players with those picks.

I don't want to go too far down a rathole with this, but can you imagine if Colorado chose McEvoy instead of Jost (picked 4 spots after Jost) and Pastrnak instead of Bleackley (picked 2 spots after Bleackley), what the team would look like? Even having blown those other two 1st round picks?

The Avs simply cannot build depth, nor retain high end talent, if they don't stop blowing drafts. Their only other option is to sell off their thin high-end talent to revitalize their prospect pool, which needs revitalization because they keep blowing drafts.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

-AB

You don't always get lucky with top picks. Macavoy is better than Jost, but we picked Rantanen at 10.

 

[klozge]

Barely missing the playoffs would be the worst possible outcome

Giving up right now would be the worst possible outcome.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Regardless of position, regardless of where in the first round they're picking, they need to pick actual NHL players with those picks.

I don't want to go too far down a rathole with this, but can you imagine if Colorado chose McEvoy instead of Jost (picked 4 spots after Jost) and Pastrnak instead of Bleackley (picked 2 spots after Bleackley), what the team would look like? Even having blown those other two 1st round picks?

The Avs simply cannot build depth, nor retain high end talent, if they don't stop blowing drafts. Their only other option is to sell off their thin high-end talent to revitalize their prospect pool, which needs revitalization because they keep blowing drafts.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

-AB

Thats why the Avs desperately need top picks, they depend on them and everyone knows it. We are not a good team at the draft not even close to it, honestly we are one of the worst in the league and the record speaks for itself. If its not a top 10 pick then its more likely that we are not getting anything out of it.

Giving up right now would be the worst possible outcome.

The can miss without giving up you know. They could give it their best and still miss the dance its just not an impressive roster, not yet at least.

 

[AvsFan29]

Giving up right now would be the worst possible outcome.

There's a very good chance that we don't give up, and don't make the playoffs. Every game is huge.