Phoenix LXVII; Route66 - Aftermath

[cheswick]

That last bit is just plain wrong. They recently changed the laws so businesses can choose to open early on Sundays if they like. Even before that, most businesses opened at noon on Sundays, so there were plenty of people working.

Most businesses don't open on Sundays. Mostly only retail does. and I think his point was that Sunday is the day when the most people wouldn't have work commitments, maybe outside of late night. Why so many people are responding to his post which was obviously just written to entice is beyond me.

 

[ajmidd12]

Congratulations, every market is cyclical. Now that we've made the play offs the past couple of years things are getting better. We have close to 2000 new season ticket holders for this year, and who knows if the team continues to do well then they will get more. Arizona is a tough market for any team. Most of our residents have come from a big market or are snow birds and they follow their team. ie when we play Chicago or Detroit the games are sold out. You have to have a winning product to convert those fans to our team. Right now, the phx Suns are doing terrible. They just offered a promo where they gave you your money back if you weren't satisfied. The Arizona diamondbacks did terrible, they were offering $5 tickets. This is a hard market.
These are all excuses and i know you hear them all the time, but Arizona has the worst fan base. Go to a cardinals game if you have a chance. Its at best 50% for the cardinals in the stands.
In Arizona, if you win they will come. That applies to all our major league sports. But the market is growing, the local media is covering the coyotes more then they ever have. I haven't seen the news cover the start of training camp ever, they did this year. It wasn't until last seasons long run in the play offs that they've gotten any attention. Things are turning around, i dont know it could be a little to late, or it could be the start of an amazing fan base.
I just hope you guys understand that there is a fan base, and we are committed. Its not in our blood, we don't learn to skate before we can walk. It's something that we've had to learn.

We understand there is a fan base, the problem is that there just isn't enough of them, it's hard to argue against this.

A team won't always do well in professional sports, unless you're the New England Patriots who always manage to pull through. The fans need to stick by the team through thick and thin. That's part of the problem.

What happens if the team tanks this year proving last years run was a fluke? Then what? 4000-5000 fans?

Hell even when the rink was sold out and filled to the **** the team lost money. It is a black hole market at this time unfortunately, the only remedy is to move the team and rebuild for the future potentially receiving another team once the economy and market is stronger.

You only have to go back those 16 years to recognize the glass house you live in

Point? We lost the team because the market wasn't strong enough at the time. Phoenix is in the same predicament Winnipeg was in 96, they should also lose their team and be given the opportunity to prove themselves viable once again.

 

[Fidel Astro]

Point? We lost the team because the market wasn't strong enough at the time. Phoenix is in the same predicament Winnipeg was in 96, they should also lose their team and be given the opportunity to prove themselves viable once again.

Exactly. Every time some Coyotes fan criticizes mid-90s Winnipeg, it's like they forget the ultimate fate of the team. We lost the team because of the economics of the time. Phoenix should lose their team too. If they can get it together in the future, the way we did a decade and a half later, they should get another shot.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Wasn't GJ supposed to finalize the sale by now?

 

[Gump Hasek]

Exactly. Every time some Coyotes fan criticizes mid-90s Winnipeg, it's like they forget the ultimate fate of the team. We lost the team because of the economics of the time. Phoenix should lose their team too. If they can get it together in the future, the way we did a decade and a half later, they should get another shot.

This is spot on; great post.

The fact of the matter is that the Jets back in the day lacked either a governmental or individual benefactor to build a new facility, one that would enable the owner to leverage revenue from things other than just ticket sales. Yet fast forward to today and the franchise now has such a facility in Phoenix yet it garners a paucity of revenue, is reliant upon taxpayer and league welfare payments and yet still loses tens of millions annually after the fact. They've advantages; league welfare that did not exist back in the day, a taxpayer base that is partially funding the day-to-day costs of the team under the guise of "arena management", and an ideal facility, yet the team remains a virtual NHL money pit of historic proportions.

The Jets left due economics that didn't work at the time and the Coyotes today are clearly a much grander disaster - comparatively speaking and from a financial perspective. The NHL should get out of Glendale, ASAP. The market has spoken.

 

[TheLegend]

I'm not sure why the notion of Jamison putting money in escrow is at all relevant. I can't see any reason why he should do so. All he needs to do is purchase the Coyotes, and then assume responsibility as arena manager.

Exactly, Whileee.

At this point he either completes the purchase before Jan. 31st or he doesn't. All the rest is useless (and more so baseless) rhetoric.

 

[OthmarAmmann]

Exactly. Every time some Coyotes fan criticizes mid-90s Winnipeg, it's like they forget the ultimate fate of the team. We lost the team because of the economics of the time. Phoenix should lose their team too. If they can get it together in the future, the way we did a decade and a half later, they should get another shot.

why "should"?

 

[CasualFan]

Not wanting to sound too negative but that's pretty pathetic considering potential investors would be looking for signs of life in the rink and fans have been waiting for someone to buy the team....

Not too negative at all. Also, a very keen point about potential investors basing their decision on attendance of a practice skate. At first, I thought the the attendance of a morning workout was inconsequential. But after reading this, I think you're onto something. If Jamison could act like there are other investors already on board AND fill up the arena for a practice skate, the deal will close by end of week. Because, let's face it, that's how multi-million dollar investments decisions are made. No data room, no due diligence; just take a look at practice attendance and then ask "hey, is anyone else in on this?". It's a great theory. It shows a wide breadth of knowledge and insight.

It would be grand if we could peer into some of the people's meaningless little lives that post here. It would be great to mock and ridicule all of the things that they hold value to.

Hey, be fair. Having a Mauritius collection sounded like a really good idea at the time...

 

[OthmarAmmann]

http://www.foxsportsarizona.com/01/...nding_coyotes.html?blockID=845813&feedID=3702

And this analogy should provide a contender for the next thread title:

“I used to run races on the track team -- one mile and two miles. I remember we used to break down the road into segments, saying, 'Let’s just get to that tree,' and that’s what we’re trying to do here.”

"Phoenix LXVIII: 'Let's just get to that tree'".

seconded!

 

[GuelphStormer]

Exactly, Whileee.

At this point he either completes the purchase before Jan. 31st or he doesn't. All the rest is useless (and more so baseless) rhetoric.

hulzi put his $25M into escrow to demonstrate to glendale and to the nhl that he was serious about purchasing the team.

yes of course it's obvious that at this time there is nothing to be gained from any moneys in escrow (and nobody is calling for that now) but in hindsight, if glendale had requested a similar demonstration from jamison a year ago that he was serious about purchasing the team, this past year of nonsense would have been avoided.

 

[Puckschmuck*]

why "should"?

It's beyond "should" at this point. This market has had more than their fair share of time to get a deal done with all parties involved. And yet still, the team has not been sold. This should be the last chance for a deal to get done. If this one fails, then a relocation to a stronger market would make the most sense. Granted we don't make the rules, and nothing about this whole situation has made any financially sound business sense to begin with.

As such, the story continues....................

 

[sipowicz]

Wasn't GJ supposed to finalize the sale by now?

Two weeks!

 

[GuelphStormer]

Not too negative at all. Also, a very keen point about potential investors basing their decision on attendance of a practice skate. At first, I thought the the attendance of a morning workout was inconsequential. But after reading this, I think you're onto something. If Jamison could act like there are other investors already on board AND fill up the arena for a practice skate, the deal will close by end of week. Because, let's face it, that's how multi-million dollar investments decisions are made. No data room, no due diligence; just take a look at practice attendance and then ask "hey, is anyone else in on this?". It's a great theory. It shows a wide breadth of knowledge and insight.

mock it if you must, CF, but what evidence is there that jamison and/or his investors have taken a strategy any more reasonable than this? that they are playing with fools on glendale council does not make their own amateurish approach any more acceptable. ... "high school graduations"? "that idol show the kids like"? "winning on the ice"? "no, i will not reveal my investors, madame mayor"? is that the sort of data-driven, multi-million dollar, due diligence, you prefer?

i mean, come on, NOW is the time to be pumping this baby. RIGHT NOW! stir up some interest. get people excited! sell a few tickets. and yes, get people in to watch practice.

but no, it's business as usual ... and nobody cares, not even the guy supposedly trying to buy the team in the next two weeks.

 

[OthmarAmmann]

I still don't understand why relocation "should" happen. Yeah, it seems like a dumb investment but so what? If there are parties that want to part with their money (CoG, JIGs potential investors, etc.) that's their prerogative.

 

[dronald]

Well, it's been exactly one month since I last checked in.

Any updates from a month ago?

Cya in another month!

 

[Whileee]

hulzi put his $25M into escrow to demonstrate to glendale and to the nhl that he was serious about purchasing the team.

yes of course it's obvious that at this time there is nothing to be gained from any moneys in escrow (and nobody is calling for that now) but in hindsight, if glendale had requested a similar demonstration from jamison a year ago that he was serious about purchasing the team, this past year of nonsense would have been avoided.

I think that Hulsizer's money in escrow was tied to the understanding / implication that once he assumed ownership of the team, he would take the responsibility for NHL's operating losses instead of the COG. That is not relevant with the current situation.

 

[Gump Hasek]

I still don't understand why relocation "should" happen. Yeah, it seems like a dumb investment but so what? If there are parties that want to part with their money (CoG, JIGs potential investors, etc.) that's their prerogative.

It should happen in my own view because much greener financial pastures exist elsewhere, in Quebec City for example. The NHL would both look better and would be better served to market to its core base versus sticking with a manufactured market that has proven an abject financial disaster as a hockey market.

 

[Killion]

I thought the Alvarez picture was funny. I doubt that Alvarez was quite as amused. It might not have been politically wise, particularly if it lights a bit of a fire under Alvarez. If Jamison needs to extend the deadline, he'll need all the help he can on council. The sort of stunt posted on Clark's Twitter feed might not help.

I wouldnt think so, not helpful at all actually, in fact beyond mean spirited. Basically imaging "look what I/we stuck you with Norma". If Clark's even trying to imply or suggest that Alvarez is really just a hypocrite, smiling broadly as she blithely hands over a game show check for $300M, falls well short of the mark.

Call her on what? You actually think a nearly 70-year old, belligerent imbecile like Joyce Clark is running her own social media account?

I guess so huh. Its not even remotely funny insofar as Im concerned, and I do love a good joke and a laugh. But this, this is just plain malicious.

 

[CasualFan]

hulzi put his $25M into escrow to demonstrate to glendale and to the nhl that he was serious about purchasing the team.

yes of course it's obvious that at this time there is nothing to be gained from any moneys in escrow (and nobody is calling for that now) but in hindsight, if glendale had requested a similar demonstration from jamison a year ago that he was serious about purchasing the team, this past year of nonsense would have been avoided.

I firmly believe that Glendale was well aware that Jamison did not have the funding and was using the Glendale Subsidy as a tool to attract investment. I believe if you go back through the archive, it will be only Scruggs who asks about the status of the purchase (to which staff replies "he has the money"). I don't think that it's a coincidence that it was also only Scruggs who asked about the identity of the investors that Jamison alleged were part of his group (to which Jamison declined to name them).

Obviously, I could play "if Glendale" all day long and never get tired of it. However, I do think that it was an informed decision when the council approved the subsidy. I do not believe that anyone was under the impression that "if we approve this, it's a done deal." Rather, I think the four council persons who approved the deal did so knowing "if we approve this, he might be able to get a deal done." So there was never any cause for an escrow agreement to be executed. Of course, on a separate track we could dissect all the reasons they were idiots for doing that (and, in fact, that track has been explored quite a bit on this forum.)

but what evidence is there that jamison and/or his investors have taken a strategy any more reasonable than this? that they are playing with fools on glendale council does not make their own amateurish approach any more acceptable. ... "high school graduations"? "that idol show the kids like"? "winning on the ice"? "no, i will not reveal my investors, madame mayor"? is that the sort of data-driven, multi-million dollar, due diligence, you prefer?

I think we might have crossed topics here. The JIG quotes do not appear to be meant as due diligence at all. I don't think they should be extrapolated to mean anything beyond their purpose: soundbites to appease the imbeciles on the Glendale council. "We're going to vote up a $300MM agreement for you tonight. Can you stop by and say something positive?" ... "Sure, let me get the admin to crank out an American Idol inspirational statement then I'll stop by and read it to you."

While I have no evidence to suggest that JIG has taken a more reasonable strategy, common sense dictates that what Jamison says/does in front of the council is in no way related or indicative of how he approaches potential investors.

 

[Whileee]

I wouldnt think so, not helpful at all actually, in fact beyond mean spirited. Basically imaging "look what I/we stuck you with Norma". If Clark's even trying to imply or suggest that Alvarez is really just a hypocrite, smiling broadly as she blithely hands over a game show check for $300M, falls well short of the mark.



I guess so huh. Its not even remotely funny insofar as Im concerned, and I do love a good joke and a laugh. But this, this is just plain malicious.

The thing is, this is the very last thing you want to do at this point -- tease and antagonize council members and citizens. Sometimes it's best to let a sleeping dog lie (in this case the somnolent council and Glendale citizenry). Imagine how that picture, with any council member's face, looks to someone working for Glendale (or their family) who is about to lose their job because of the $300 million cheque. Clark's an idiot for not realizing that she should just let this keep a low profile until Jamison has had a full opportunity to purchase the team.

 

[Whileee]

I think we might have crossed topics here. The JIG quotes do not appear to be meant as due diligence at all. I don't think they should be extrapolated to mean anything beyond their purpose: soundbites to appease the imbeciles on the Glendale council. "We're going to vote up a $300MM agreement for you tonight. Can you stop by and say something positive?" ... "Sure, let me get the admin to crank out an American Idol inspirational statement then I'll stop by and read it to you."

While I have no evidence to suggest that JIG has taken a more reasonable strategy, common sense dictates that what Jamison says/does in front of the council is in no way related or indicative of how he approaches potential investors.

Sure, but the guy's performance and demeanor left a lot to be desired. I just don't get the "miracle man" vibe from this guy. That's a pretty superficial assessment, I'll admit. But that's the impression he left with me.

 

[goyotes]

Since the schedule went out and tickets are now for sale for single games, I have been checking the seating to get an idea about attendance. The Hawks game will sell out no problem, and maybe the Kings game next week, but I think because the Coyotes have such a low STH count, I'm not sure the Coyotes will see a big increase in attendance this year. They are really behind the eight ball given how quickly the schedule was released, how compressed the schedule is, and because they don't have a season (or even off season) for people to buy single game tickets or ticket packages.

By my estimate, it looks like most of the early games with the exception of the Hawks and the Kings games early on, show around 10k tickets sold right now. They have a lot of work to do in a short period of time to get to average numbers even beyond 13k a game (which is up but still terrible attendance). I wonder how attendance will be this year for other teams with small STH bases? I hear tickets are selling well, but I think the poor attendance argument will hold particularly true this year coming off the heals of a great season last year.

It never seems to go smooth for this team.

 

[CasualFan]

The thing is, this is the very last thing you want to do at this point -- tease and antagonize council members and citizens. Sometimes it's best to let a sleeping dog lie (in this case the somnolent council and Glendale citizenry). Imagine how that picture, with any council member's face, looks to someone working for Glendale (or their family) who is about to lose their job because of the $300 million cheque. Clark's an idiot for not realizing that she should just let this keep a low profile until Jamison has had a full opportunity to purchase the team.

It seems pretty obvious that Clark has little, if anything, to do with a Twitter account. Whoever is running it appears to be low intellect, juvenile, but handy with Photoshop. If I ever create a Twitter account, I would want that exact type of character to run it for me.

Sure, but the guy's performance and demeanor left a lot to be desired. I just don't get the "miracle man" vibe from this guy. That's a pretty superficial assessment, I'll admit. But that's the impression he left with me.

Yeah, I don't think "dynamic investor" goes together with "own the Coyotes". At this point, anyone who wants to persist the franchise in Glendale has to take what they can get. As of now, that's an uninspiring guy who hasn't been able to close the transaction despite a year or so of effort.

 

[cbcwpg]

Since the schedule went out and tickets are now for sale for single games, I have been checking the seating to get an idea about attendance. The Hawks game will sell out no problem, and maybe the Kings game next week, but I think because the Coyotes have such a low STH count, I'm not sure the Coyotes will see a big increase in attendance this year. They are really behind the eight ball given how quickly the schedule was released, how compressed the schedule is, and because they don't have a season (or even off season) for people to buy single game tickets or ticket packages.

By my estimate, it looks like most of the early games with the exception of the Hawks and the Kings games early on, show around 10k tickets sold right now. They have a lot of work to do in a short period of time to get to average numbers even beyond 13k a game (which is up but still terrible attendance). I wonder how attendance will be this year for other teams with small STH bases? I hear tickets are selling well, but I think the poor attendance argument will hold particularly true this year coming off the heals of a great season last year.

It never seems to go smooth for this team.

No surprise there. Even if Jamison does end up buying the team in the next couple of weeks, it's obvious that he is not going to spend one dime promoting the team until he is the actual owner. Caught between a rock and a hard place... he won't promote the team because he doesn't own it, but he is hurting himself ( for this season ) by not promoting it now.

 

[Killion]

Sure, but the guy's performance and demeanor left a lot to be desired. I just don't get the "miracle man" vibe from this guy. That's a pretty superficial assessment, I'll admit. But that's the impression he left with me.

Leaves a Hell of a lot to be desired. He's just.... bland. Gray. Colourless. Foggy. Ethereal. Where's the charisma, the charm, the public pronouncements that Glendale & the fans are dealing with someone who truly has a vision and the hubris to pull this off? He's never claimed to be a "Miracle Man", he hasnt really said or done anything thats in the public domain other than negotiate the Lease Agreement & Arena Management Contract, inserting himself into the Doan Sweepstakes. And to what extent therein, beyond providing Shane with platitudes & possibly promises of a position with the team post retirement, maybe even a piece of it, who knows? Talk is cheap, and unfortunately people make promises for short-term gain all the time they know perfectly well they cant keep.