OT: Philadelphia Phillies (MLB): Senior Citizens Bank Park

[Hiesenberg]

It's really hard for me to get mad at someone for reporting a violation of the rules when it becomes apparent to them. They're not required to, but ethically, this is an incredibly slippery slope if MLB teams are routinely ignoring violations of amateur status.

Should they allow violations of drug rules? steroid policy? What if a draft pick committed a serious major crime that they become aware of?

I sit on a couple ethics boards in my profession and it has definitely made me more in-tune with people not turning a blind eye to clear violations.

I see what you are saying, but if comes off bad, very bad.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

If the Phillies did in fact snitch on him because he did not accept their offer and stayed in college instead it will be interesting to see how future draft picks handle themselves. They think that they're being blackmailed into signing on because if they don't they'll get snitched on.

 

[Phileeguy]

If the Phillies did in fact snitch on him because he did not accept their offer and stayed in college instead it will be interesting to see how future draft picks handle themselves. They think that they're being blackmailed into signing on because if they don't they'll get snitched on.

From what I'm reading (there's a Keith Law chat going on ATM and he's been talking about this issue), the NCAA rule states you're allowed to have an agent counsel you, but not do the actual negotiating. But, he makes the point that most players use their agents do the negotiating, and for the most part teams don't care and reporting this violation is a rarity.

I'd guess that any Phillies future draft picks will either toe the line in terms of not using agents for anything more than counsel or just decide to stay in college without even entertaining the offer from the Phils. Neither of these are good options for the Phillies long term, because eventually players will come around to knowing that without their agents in the room, they're losing out on cash and making them less willing to sign.

 

[Hiesenberg]

Its funny, Buster Olney is going on and on about the Phillies being jerks in this situation.

Yet as pointed out earlier, they didn't break a rule, the kid did.

Now I think what they did was stupid and possibly hurts them down the road, but its kind of funny how the kid is being martyred here.

 

[Hiesenberg]

Aaron Fitt who broke the news says, he's hearing from agent after agent that they will not deal with the Phillies anymore.

If its true..nice work Ruben

 

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

Sooooooooooo... The Phillies are never gonna sign another player

 

[Hiesenberg]

Sooooooooooo... The Phillies are never gonna sign another player

Doubtful, but it might cost them more now.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Doubtful, but it might cost them more now.

Meh, I doubt it. I don't see NCAA players gaining any type of leverage based on this.

Amaro: We'd like to offer you a $1 million signing bonus.

NCAA Player: Nope, you ratted some guy out for breaking the rules one time! Make it $2 million!

I would hope that these guys are more mature than that (and I would also hope that the Phillies brass wouldn't get bullied by a prospect like that).

 

[Hiesenberg]

Meh, I doubt it. I don't see NCAA players gaining any type of leverage based on this.

Amaro: We'd like to offer you a $1 million signing bonus.

NCAA Player: Nope, you ratted some guy out for breaking the rules one time! Make it $2 million!

I would hope that these guys are more mature than that (and I would also hope that the Phillies brass wouldn't get bullied by a prospect like that).

Ok, a couple of things.

You build a farm system by buying these kids out of college, you have to bonus, most of kids want to go to school. Now they won't want to, also if you do get a high pick (like this year) it'll become even harder to sign, those kids will bounce right back into school easily.

 

[Broad Street Elite]

This all sounds too reminiscent of "the Flyers will never get anyone to sign a contract with them again after trading away Richards and Carter after they signed hometown discount deals."

Players that want to sign will sign. Ones that don't won't. I expect collegiate players will be a little more discreet about their dealings with agents when drafted by the Phillies, but are those that want to make money going to just jump back into college?

Doubt it.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Ok, a couple of things.

You build a farm system by buying these kids out of college, you have to bonus, most of kids want to go to school. Now they won't want to, also if you do get a high pick (like this year) it'll become even harder to sign, those kids will bounce right back into school easily.

I'm not buying it. I just don't see it being an issue. I'm sure it's possible that it might scare someone away (though I'm not sure I really understand the logic). Draft picks often don't sign with the teams that draft them for a number of reasons, so now whenever someone refuses to sign everyone is going to point to this as the reason, so there really is no point in arguing about it. I agree the Phillies pulled a dick move, especially if this is as rampant as people are reporting, but I don't see it hurting them.

The logic doesn't really add up to me. NCAA has rules. You can't violate these rules. You won't sign with a team that will not let you violate these rules so you will turn down money to go back to school and risk having nothing later, just because they are not going to let you break the rules. But if they did let you break the rules, then you would sign. Again, it is possible, but I don't see it happening.

 

[Hiesenberg]

I'm not buying it. I just don't see it being an issue. I'm sure it's possible that it might scare someone away (though I'm not sure I really understand the logic). Draft picks often don't sign with the teams that draft them for a number of reasons, so now whenever someone refuses to sign everyone is going to point to this as the reason, so there really is no point in arguing about it. I agree the Phillies pulled a dick move, especially if this is as rampant as people are reporting, but I don't see it hurting them.

The logic doesn't really add up to me. NCAA has rules. You can't violate these rules. You won't sign with a team that will not let you violate these rules so you will turn down money to go back to school and risk having nothing later, just because they are not going to let you break the rules. But if they did let you break the rules, then you would sign. Again, it is possible, but I don't see it happening.

Nobody in the world agrees with what they did.

They are wrong.

What will hurt is scouting players. Phillies just put themselves behind 29 other teams. Players & Team have to ALLOW the phillies to review medical records and even allow them to watch. If players/coaches block the phillies, they can't properly scout for drafts.

 

[Broad Street Elite]

I hope that the Phillies make a serious offer to Aledmys Diaz, the Cuban SS. Middle infield is one of the locations where we are extremely limited in prospects outside of Crawford, who is likely several years out. Diaz, by most scouting accounts, has hitting skills that are likely to translate and are very close to being ready now.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Nobody in the world agrees with what they did.

They are wrong.

I'm not saying I agree with them. I'm saying I don't think it will have the negative impact people are saying it will.

What will hurt is scouting players. Phillies just put themselves behind 29 other teams. Players & Team have to ALLOW the phillies to review medical records and even allow them to watch. If players/coaches block the phillies, they can't properly scout for drafts.

Is that something you really think will happen? I simply don't see it. It is something that sounds like an extreme overreaction conspiracy theory-type statement. As someone else pointed out, this is similar to the reaction about the Flyers offer-sheeting players or signing guys to long-term deals then trading them. Way overblown. I'm not worried.

 

[Hiesenberg]

I'm not saying I agree with them. I'm saying I don't think it will have the negative impact people are saying it will.



Is that something you really think will happen? I simply don't see it. It is something that sounds like an extreme overreaction conspiracy theory-type statement. As someone else pointed out, this is similar to the reaction about the Flyers offer-sheeting players or signing guys to long-term deals then trading them. Way overblown. I'm not worried.

To a degree, yes. If a player thinks talking to the Philly will completely void his NCAA eligibility, then yes, they will not talk with them.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

To a degree, yes. If a player thinks talking to the Philly will completely void his NCAA eligibility, then yes, they will not talk with them.

That is after he's been drafted though. You are saying teams won't let them even scout these players. If the Phillies want to scout Player X or want info on Player X, I would be surprised if an NCAA coach said no (and I would think the player would be pissed that the coach would do that as well).

Further, once drafted, I would be surprised if a kid decided not to sign with the Phillies for fear of being in turned in for breaking the rules. I like that it is unequivocally decided that this will make kids fear the Phillies, but there is no chance that this will make kids re-think breaking the rules. I'm not saying that the latter will happen, just that it isn't even being considered. It is simply that the Phillies are now blacklisted from all players and teams because of this. I just don't see it.

 

[flybynite77]

The idea or notion that the Phillies were in the right and the kid and his advisor(agent) were in the wrong is somewhat incomplete and hypocritical when you consider the entire situation.

I think pretty much every baseball team in the majors, every baseball team in college, every agent, every NCAA baseball official pretty much knows that the 'advisors' for amateur players when drafted are agents. Once the player signs a deal that 'advisor' usually gets the 4% or so agent cut as the advisor becomes the players agent.

Hundreds of players every draft likely use their 'advisor' in the exact same manner as this player did, most of those players do sign contracts, some do not... but the MLB teams don't "rat them out" and try to punish the player.

Now if you could look at this situation and say the Phillies reported something that they and every MLB team knows goes on just because they felt "slighted/jerked around" by the 'advisor' of the player or the player himself that's one thing. You could say while teams let the rules be broke, the rule was broke.

But the Phillies are not angels in this negotiation. The Phillies also broke MLB draft rules by doing something every other MLB team also does and which gets 'overlooked' in a similar manner to the player's advisor being in all but name an agent.

The Phillies negotiated/discussed bonuses with players prior to drafting them. By the letter of the law for the draft rules in MLB that is something which teams are not allowed to do. It's something which under the new CBA happens even more than it did in the old days. The reason being in the new CBA you have a draft pool that you can't exceed for the first 10 rounds or else you can receive financial penalties and if you exceed it by 5% or more start losing subsequent draft picks.

To counter this new draft pool teams have realized that if they draft a junior or senior NCAA player in rounds 5 thru 10 and get that player to agree to sign for a bonus that is 'underslot' then the team can apply that savings to "tougher signs" and exceed slot bonuses. Let's say your 2nd round pick has a slot value of $1.5m, but the kid wants $2.0m to sign. By shedding a few $100,000 off signing bonuses to your 7th/8th/9th round picks you can make up that difference.

The Phillies are basically pulling a pot calling the kettle black here in that they are mad because the kid and his agent didn't follow-thru on the agreed bonus when that pre-draft agreement is itself against the MLB rules.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Mike Trout signs for 1 Year $1M. Highest pre-arbitration contract ever surpassing Ryan Howard's from 2007.

 

[Hiesenberg]

So I guess that whole 7 years 150M deal isn't happening?

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

So I guess that whole 7 years 150M deal isn't happening?

I just read that it is even more likely now. They will sign it as an extension or something so that the bigger numbers don't count toward the luxury tax until next year or the year after or however it works. He's on my Yahoo! team and they explain on there.

 

[Jtown]

So I guess that whole 7 years 150M deal isn't happening?

i just read that it is a sign that it is happening. It would be an extension and would lower his aav to help anaheim with luxury tax.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Abreu's bat speed. Oh boy. Batting 6th in the lineup today. I know it's only one game but do they really expect him to be a starter?

 

[Hiesenberg]

Abreu's bat speed. Oh boy. Batting 6th in the lineup today. I know it's only one game but do they really expect him to be a starter?

No...not even close. He's the last player off the bench.

 

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

No...not even close. He's the last player off the bench.

Not looking good, eh? can't watch at work

 

[Hiesenberg]

Not looking good, eh? can't watch at work

I'm confused. Abreu was brought in to be a potential LH pinch hitter. May play an afternoon game once a month. That's it. If Byrd gets hurt, it'll be Mayberry/Ruff platooning, if one of them gets hurt, they'll pick up somebody and/or call up somebody. At no point was Abreu ever thought to play regular games for the Phillies.