Contract Termination: [PHI] F Ryan Johansen placed on waivers by the Flyers for the purpose of contract termination (Johansen grieving)

[Beukeboom Fan]

He only mysteriously became injured , after not being picked up from waivers, and was about to be sent down.

After never missing a game for Colorado.

IMO - this is a lot like the Hossa skin condition. It's 100% documented that he was taking medicines with long term health risks to enable him to be able to play in the NHL. When his contract decreased and he was only going to get paid $1M per year, he decided that it wasn't worth the risk to his health and he stopped playing going on LTIR. The player makes a decision about how much he is willing to endure to play. If RJ was playing injured (which would explain how he was hampered in his play over the last couple of years - or he could just be a lazy POS like posters think), I can see why he wouldn't want to play in the AHL for no real benefit. Again - YMMV.

 

[Dr Pepper]

If RyJo says he was injured, what steps did the Philly organization take to verify to check it to ensure a proper rehab for him? Is Are there any documentation from Colorado which indicates RyJo was hurting? Did Phi give him a physical, any scans, expert evaluation on his condition?

With those comments from Briere, it doesn't appear Phi did much to gather information on his condition before the year end exit physicals.

Bit curious, still, for him to make that claim after being remarkably healthy leading up to the trade.

But sure, he "says" he was injured and doesn't play a single game in Philly following his trade there. Still wondering when this mysterious injury might have happened.

 

[StreetHawk]

He only mysteriously became injured , after not being picked up from waivers, and was about to be sent down.

After never missing a game for Colorado.

That probably isn't going to be enough evidence from Phi to terminate the contract. Players have played through pain before. I mean Weber was a warrior throughout the 2022 finals and never played a game since. Callahan shut down in TB from wear and tear.

They will need something to show that RyJo is healthy enough. See what actual evidence they do have. But, just from Briere's comments, I'm not getting a vibe that Philly does have something medical on their side as proof (scan/Dr evaluation), etc.

 

[StreetHawk]

He mentioned the injury after being traded to Philly and subsequently being assigned to the AHL affiliate. Then, he met with team doctors in Lehigh to assess the severity of the injury. That's all that I've seen reported, so I can only assume with this waiver that his injury wasn't deemed by those doctors to be severe enough to keep him out of the line up.

That write up from their A medical staff will be key for Phi. Did they ever place him on IR while in the A or was he just scratched for the balance of the season. At his age, they probably didn't care if he played or not, but putting him on IR means that they acknowledge an injury.

Plus there is typically a year end exit physical to determine the player's health for buyout purposes. Was that done? Lots of questions for the Phi and their medical team on how they handled it and what documentation they have on it.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

This is the line I am curious.

If he was nursing an injury but was like NHL and playoffs.

As soon as he got sent to a 'bad' team he figures time to get healthy and fix my injury issues.

Curious on the legality and everything. NBA teams near the end sit Guys for games when playoffs won't be made. Rehab injury etc.

Only point I would make - is that the 'bad' team he was sent to was still in a play-off position (which they ultimately fell out of) didn't even give him a chance to try and play. The Flyers immediately waived him and sent him to AHL.

And don't get me wrong - I'm not thrilled with how RJ acted in this situation. But this isn't a case where the Flyers were expecting RJ to help the team, or they would have actually given him a chance to play. They knew that part of the 1st round DP return they got for Walker was for taking on RJ's contract. Maybe they thought to buy him out, but because he was injured they couldn't. I just find it disengenous that Briere acted like he had no idea what was going on medically when the Flyers staff would have been highly involved with the evaluation and treatment plan, and the fact that he didn't mention that RJ was scheduled for surgery when deciding to cancel the contract.

 

[StreetHawk]

Only point I would make - is that the 'bad' team he was sent to was still in a play-off position (which they ultimately fell out of) didn't even give him a chance to try and play. The Flyers immediately waived him and sent him to AHL.

And don't get me wrong - I'm not thrilled with how RJ acted in this situation. But this isn't a case where the Flyers were expecting RJ to help the team, or they would have actually given him a chance to play. They knew that part of the 1st round DP return they got for Walker was for taking on RJ's contract. Maybe they thought to buy him out, but because he was injured they couldn't. I just find it disengenous that Briere acted like he had no idea what was going on medically when the Flyers staff would have been highly involved with the evaluation and treatment plan, and the fact that he didn't mention that RJ was scheduled for surgery when deciding to cancel the contract.

Feels like this is a directive from above or something. Someone is ticked at RyJo and they are trying a hail mary to get rid of his contract.

Does Phi not have lawyers within the organization or on retainer that would have asked them for their documentation/proof before proceeding. Maybe they did and their lawyer gave them the go ahead, and Briere is just bad at communicating the team's position. But, based off the history of that franchise and injuries, not sure I would rely on them to have everything documented properly to terminate this contract with cause.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Only point I would make - is that the 'bad' team he was sent to was still in a play-off position (which they ultimately fell out of) didn't even give him a chance to try and play. The Flyers immediately waived him and sent him to AHL.

And don't get me wrong - I'm not thrilled with how RJ acted in this situation. But this isn't a case where the Flyers were expecting RJ to help the team, or they would have actually given him a chance to play. They knew that part of the 1st round DP return they got for Walker was for taking on RJ's contract. Maybe they thought to buy him out, but because he was injured they couldn't. I just find it disengenous that Briere acted like he had no idea what was going on medically when the Flyers staff would have been highly involved with the evaluation and treatment plan, and the fact that he didn't mention that RJ was scheduled for surgery when deciding to cancel the contract.

So much behind closed doors I will just wait and see.

If he's going for surgery going to be a tough case to sell on the termination I feel.

 

[JKG33]

He told them a while back he didn't want to be a Flyer anymore and then during a tournament when he told them not to contact him, they went and tried to talk to him anyway, a distraction during a time where he needs to be focused during the WJC. So yeah, Cutter ain't the bloke that was unprofessional.

Ironically, the fact that the Flyers themselves landed Lindros who famously didn't want to be a Nordique, are they really going to sit there and act like they don't understand how that goes?

A yes, Cutter Gauthier. The known consumate professional avoiding distractions at all costs. Especially before big games like the NCAA finals. All business that kid is

 

[gifted88]

I can see why he wouldn't want to play in the AHL for no real benefit.

This is the slippery slope when it comes to players injuries & health. I don't think it's possible to have your health conditions change based on where you're playing hockey. As others have said, risk vs reward factors are at play here. Now how do you go about proving that to terminate a contract I have no idea.

I remember Lupul saying one August he was ready to go for Leafs training camp. Dude spent his summer skiing in Italy. That's not something someone with nagging injuries does in their spare time. It didn't take long for him to reverse course and stay on LTIR.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

This is the slippery slope when it comes to players injuries & health. I don't think it's possible to have your health conditions change based on where you're playing hockey. As others have said, risk vs reward factors are at play here. Now how do you go about proving that to terminate a contract I have no idea.

I remember Lupul saying one August he was ready to go for Leafs training camp. Dude spent his summer skiing in Italy. That's not something someone with nagging injuries does in their spare time. It didn't take long for him to reverse course and stay on LTIR.

Agreed on the slippery slope, especially with the Robidas Island option where you continue to get your contract paid out.

I will say that it wouldn't surprise me if RJ was playing hurt, but was doing what he could for the Avs. The mental calculation of risk/reward changed when demoted to the AHL. I might not agree personally, but understand the situation.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Feels like this is a directive from above or something. Someone is ticked at RyJo and they are trying a hail mary to get rid of his contract.

Does Phi not have lawyers within the organization or on retainer that would have asked them for their documentation/proof before proceeding. Maybe they did and their lawyer gave them the go ahead, and Briere is just bad at communicating the team's position. But, based off the history of that franchise and injuries, not sure I would rely on them to have everything documented properly to terminate this contract with cause.

How is it a hail mary if Johansen didnt report the injury in a timely fashion? Keep in mind, if he was injured in Colorado or before, Colorado might have LTIRed him and kept their 1st.

 

[StreetHawk]

How is it a hail mary if Johansen didnt report the injury in a timely fashion? Keep in mind, if he was injured in Colorado or before, Colorado might have LTIRed him and kept their 1st.

The onus is on the flyers to show he’s healthy. A pro athlete who is from the 2010 draft, it wouldn’t be a surprise to see them playing in pain 14 years later. Again, we saw Weber, Callahan, retire after playing to the end of their seasons and land on ltir the following season permanently.

A lot is going to depend on what they documented medically from when they acquired him to any exit physical they did on him.

 

[John Mandalorian]

The onus is on the flyers to show he’s healthy. A pro athlete who is from the 2010 draft, it wouldn’t be a surprise to see them playing in pain 14 years later. Again, we saw Weber, Callahan, retire after playing to the end of their seasons and land on ltir the following season permanently.

A lot is going to depend on what they documented medically from when they acquired him to any exit physical they did on him.

Weber and Callahan are apples and oranges.

 

[JKG33]

This is the slippery slope when it comes to players injuries & health. I don't think it's possible to have your health conditions change based on where you're playing hockey. As others have said, risk vs reward factors are at play here. Now how do you go about proving that to terminate a contract I have no idea.

It's really not though. You're running the assumption that a player is healthy until they get sent down and are then magically hurt.

The thing is, most of these guys like RyJo with a long career and multiple surgeries behind them, are most certainly not "healthy." They choose to play at the highest level despite this. They could very easily hit LTIR sooner with these wear and tear nagging injuries. But they push through because it's the NHL. The circumstances change when it's the AHL instead. Same injury, but now it's not worthwhile

 

[Golden_Jet]

It's really not though. You're running the assumption that a player is healthy until they get sent down and are then magically hurt.

Yet that seems to be what happened in this case.

. The circumstances change when it's the AHL instead. Same injury, but now it's not worthwhile

That will not help his case in a grievance.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Maybe Its because i read it too fast but all i'm taking from this is Gauthier wanted out because they didn't want to sign his ELC and give him his 10 games at the end of the season?

It's implicitly believed the Flyers reneged on a pretty major promise, but I didn't cite that because I couldn't nail down a hard source for it—try to offer some analysis based on established reporting. But yes, he wanted to burn year one of his ELC and may have been promised that he'd be able to do that, but Briere had other ideas.

Briere was only a few days into being an NHL GM when he had to negotiate that with the player, and he apparently fell so flat on his face that Gauthier lost confidence in the franchise and demanded a trade shortly after. Despite being told not to contact him, the Flyers instead insisted on continually sending staff uninvited to try to meet with him—both at his college and when he was abroad for the WJC at the end of 2023.

My main focus was on the fallout. Gauthier does seem like kind of a prick, but the Flyers knew why he didn't want to play for them, continued to pursue him, and then ran a massively dishonest smear campaign where they claimed they didn't know anything and that if you don't want to be "Be a Flyer" then they don't want you (even though they were the ones still trying to reconcile as late as two weeks before they traded him).

Their narrative was extremely effective at turning the fanbase against Gauthier and sullying his reputation around the league, to the point that he was receiving death threats. Which is a very f***ed up way for a billion-dollar company to behave towards a 19-year-old over contract differences, but pretty par for the course for the dishonest marketing operation that is the Philadelphia Flyers Presented By Comcast.

So if you're an agent and you see all that happening to one of your players, you probably don't want your other clients doing business with that company. Given that the Flyers are in this situation now with Johansen and mysteriously passed on Buium at the draft, it seems pretty obvious they've burned their relationship with the Overhardt representation group, and who knows how they appear to other players and agents around the league.

 

[JKG33]

Yet that seems to be what happened in this case.

That will not help his case in a grievance.

Able to play doesn't = healthy

 

[HabsAddict]

From my experience in manufacturing, it's virtually impossible to prove someone is not hurt/injured/sick.

Even if it's apparent that they are faking it to management, the courts take the "injured" person side.

What I found was the amazing coincidence of all those injuries/sickness happened before or after long weekends. Or in his case, when he was sent down.

Just amazing....

 

[JKG33]

It's implicitly believed the Flyers reneged on a pretty major promise, but I didn't cite that because I couldn't nail down a hard source for it—try to offer some analysis based on established reporting. But yes, he wanted to burn year one of his ELC and may have been promised that he'd be able to do that, but Briere had other ideas.

Briere was only a few days into being an NHL GM when he had to negotiate that with the player, and he apparently fell so flat on his face that Gauthier lost confidence in the franchise and demanded a trade shortly after. Despite being told not to contact him, the Flyers instead insisted on continually sending staff uninvited to try to meet with him—both at his college and when he was abroad for the WJC at the end of 2023.

My main focus was on the fallout. Gauthier does seem like kind of a prick, but the Flyers knew why he didn't want to play for them, continued to pursue him, and then ran a massively dishonest smear campaign where they claimed they didn't know anything and that if you don't want to be "Be a Flyer" then they don't want you (even though they were the ones still trying to reconcile as late as two weeks before they traded him).

Their narrative was extremely effective at turning the fanbase against Gauthier and sullying his reputation around the league, to the point that he was receiving death threats. Which is a very f***ed up way for a billion-dollar company to behave towards a 19-year-old over contract differences, but pretty par for the course for the dishonest marketing operation that is the Philadelphia Flyers Presented By Comcast.

So if you're an agent and you see all that happening to one of your players, you probably don't want your other clients doing business with that company. Given that the Flyers are in this situation now with Johansen and mysteriously passed on Buium at the draft, it seems pretty obvious they've burned their relationship with the Overhardt representation group, and who knows how they appear to other players and agents around the league.

I can't believe I'm defending the Flyers, but Gauthier has done enough to muddy his reputation on his own, with or without the alleged "smear campaign."

If I'm another agent, I'd hope my client isn't an immature ass clown like Gauthier, but his type seems to be more and more common these days.

As for the death threats, that's some lunatic fans thatre found in probably half if not all of the league. And those psychopaths are probably doing that dumb shit just for him refusing to sign, again with or without the alleged "smear campaign"

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Yet that seems to be what happened in this case.

That will not help his case in a grievance.

GJ - while I agree I know you're a Hawks fan who lived through the Seabrook terminal contract. The guy was trying to play when he couldn't lift his arm over his shoulder, and need surgery on both his hips. IMO, he had those injuries for years before actually having surgery, and that would explain the massive fall-off in his play the last couple of years on the Hawks. I don't think that Seabrook was healthy because he was playing and then all of a sudden in his last game something happened and now he was incapable of play.

Agree that the grievance case is going to be a very challenging situation. What had RJ communicated with the Av's training staff? What was communicated with the Flyers staff? I assume the Flyers staff would be heavily involved with rehab and treatment since acquiring him at the TDL, and what was the result of the end of season physical? If potential surgery was on the table - I would think that he would not pass the physical, but that's my common sense approach and I'm not aware of the actual process.

 

[Z-Diddy]

Prob missing that sick CLB basketball court he bought now...

 

[Mr Positive]

GJ - while I agree I know you're a Hawks fan who lived through the Seabrook terminal contract. The guy was trying to play when he couldn't lift his arm over his shoulder, and need surgery on both his hips. IMO, he had those injuries for years before actually having surgery, and that would explain the massive fall-off in his play the last couple of years on the Hawks. I don't think that Seabrook was healthy because he was playing and then all of a sudden in his last game something happened and now he was incapable of play.

Agree that the grievance case is going to be a very challenging situation. What had RJ communicated with the Av's training staff? What was communicated with the Flyers staff? I assume the Flyers staff would be heavily involved with rehab and treatment since acquiring him at the TDL, and what was the result of the end of season physical? If potential surgery was on the table - I would think that he would not pass the physical, but that's my common sense approach and I'm not aware of the actual process.

I'd think he'll win his grevience because it's doubtful he made everything up. There's likely a medical report that backs up that there is a nagging issue, and after that it's all the player's discretion as whether it is too severe to be worth playing through or not. That's what went on with Hossa and the league backed him on that.

But I imagine that just like Kane and Perry, the league will let Philly escape from this contract before a final decision is made. Johansen will get his money but under the table and without cap penalty

It is circumvention imo but the league would rather an uncomfortable situation like this get swept under the rug

 

[StreetHawk]

From my experience in manufacturing, it's virtually impossible to prove someone is not hurt/injured/sick.

Even if it's apparent that they are faking it to management, the courts take the "injured" person side.

What I found was the amazing coincidence of all those injuries/sickness happened before or after long weekends. Or in his case, when he was sent down.

Just amazing....

Also sick days. Knew someone who would always be "sick" near the end of the month if a sick day was not used.

With like 18 years of this LTIR, how many players over the years ended up on LTIR via wear and tear on their body? That precedence would likely favor RJ in this matter. As that is something that does occur in the sport and to its players.

 

[Golden_Jet]

GJ - while I agree I know you're a Hawks fan who lived through the Seabrook terminal contract. The guy was trying to play when he couldn't lift his arm over his shoulder, and need surgery on both his hips. IMO, he had those injuries for years before actually having surgery, and that would explain the massive fall-off in his play the last couple of years on the Hawks. I don't think that Seabrook was healthy because he was playing and then all of a sudden in his last game something happened and now he was incapable of play.

Agree that the grievance case is going to be a very challenging situation. What had RJ communicated with the Av's training staff? What was communicated with the Flyers staff? I assume the Flyers staff would be heavily involved with rehab and treatment since acquiring him at the TDL, and what was the result of the end of season physical? If potential surgery was on the table - I would think that he would not pass the physical, but that's my common sense approach and I'm not aware of the actual process.

I think it will depend on what the Avs disclosed to the flyers.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

A yes, Cutter Gauthier. The known consumate professional avoiding distractions at all costs. Especially before big games like the NCAA finals. All business that kid is

Ah yes, a lad that was told the team was going to do one thing, then a new bloke took over and changed his mind and for an entire year he told them he wasn't interested in being on the team, so naturally at the WJC where most teams tell the NHL not to bother them, he goes and bothers him and then plays the victim to the media.