Pettersson vs Eichel

[Regal]

No it’s a very good argument and perfectly applicable here.

EP won’t maintain anything even close to this SH. The greatest scorer of this era shoots at 12 percent.

No doubt it will come down, but why bring up Ovechkin when he isn't anywhere near the shooting percentage leaders in his career? There's lots of players who can maintain around 14-15

 

[Healthy DiPietro]

Pettersson is riding a very unsustainable shooting percentage.

Well, it will drop significantly, yet with a secondary point ratio around 20% there's nothing misleading about his point total in terms of how good he is. You can exchange 7-8 of his goals for 7-8 drop passes to a guy in turn passing to a guy, which happens more on good teams.

Nothing against Eichel btw, he's clearly better right now.

 

[Apotheosis]

Eichel. EP rides unsustainable percentages.

 

[dasaybz]

I'm glad Eichel is finally getting the credit he deserves. With that said, I think Pettersson will be McDavid's competition for the best player in the world. I can't imagine what the hype would be like if he played for the Leafs.

Eichel is the better player today, but I'd bank on Pettersson being the better player when they're both in their prime.

You would bank on that?

 

[Phil McKraken]

Eichel. EP rides unsustainable percentages.

I dunno, I agree with Healthy DiPietro. Having such a low relative amount of secondary points isn't sustainable either.

 

[Mattilaus]

Well, it will drop significantly, yet with a secondary point ratio around 20% there's nothing misleading about his point total in terms of how good he is. You can exchange 7-8 of his goals for 7-8 drop passes to a guy in turn passing to a guy, which happens more on good teams.

Nothing against Eichel btw, he's clearly better right now.

Can I ask where you get the numbers for secondary point ratios or in the alternative how to calculate them? Seems like interesting stuff and I'd like to check out a few different players.

 

[Apotheosis]

I dunno, I agree with Healthy DiPietro. Having such a low relative amount of secondary points isn't sustainable either.

Secondary points are more down to luck though. Primary points are inherently more repeatable and a better indication of playmaking talent. Secondary points have more to do with quality of linemates.

 

[Ben White]

No it’s a very good argument and perfectly applicable here.

EP won’t maintain anything even close to this SH. The greatest scorer of this era shoots at 12 percent.

Ovechkin?? Shoot first guys tend to have lower sh% first of all, also EP has an unusually accurate shot along with being unusually selective with his shots coming from a season with crazy high sh% all in all, so no, the unsustainable sh% is not always the go to argument every time it’s seemingly available.

 

[Phil McKraken]

Secondary points are more down to luck though. Primary points are inherently more repeatable and a better indication of playmaking talent. Secondary points have more to do with quality of linemates.

Yeah, but that's the point, we're comparing him to players with different teammates, or in other words different luck. If a high shooting percentage means you've been luckier than average, a low secondary point ratio means you've been unluckier than average.

 

[Mattilaus]

Ovechkin?? Shoot first guys tend to have lower sh% first of all, also EP has an unusually accurate shot along with being unusually selective with his shots coming from a season with crazy high sh% all in all, so no, the unsustainable sh% is not always the go to argument every time it’s seemingly available.

It is here. If he maintained his current shooting percentage he would be the highest percentage shooter in the history of the league by far. Having a higher shooting percentage in an inferior league does not mean you will be the best shooter in the history of the NHL. This isn't like he is scoring at an unusually high rate like 15-17%. It is several magnitudes higher. Mike Bossy shot at 21% and that was in the 70s and 80's. Pettersson is 28%

 

[Healthy DiPietro]

Can I ask where you get the numbers for secondary point ratios or in the alternative how to calculate them? Seems like interesting stuff and I'd like to check out a few different players.

Icydata.hockey. Don't know if it calculates stuff though since I'm using my phone.

In EP's case I looked up 11 primaries out of 18 assists, so 35/7 = 5, or 20%. Most players tend to split primary and secondary assists at half.

 

[Snippit]

Ovechkin?? Shoot first guys tend to have lower sh% first of all, also EP has an unusually accurate shot along with being unusually selective with his shots coming from a season with crazy high sh% all in all, so no, the unsustainable sh% is not always the go to argument every time it’s seemingly available.

You’re delusional if you think he’ll even get 20...let alone maintain 27

 

[jj cale]

Nah. To the second Part about right now, that’s not remotely true.

I’ve watched Canucks games where Petterson was invisible which is forgivable, he’s a rookie! only been a few and it was during the losing streak.

This is going to sound obnoxious but Eichel hasn’t had one game I can remember where he was like that this year. He’s been THAT good...... some of eichels best games this season were in games he didn’t get points. The sharks game, the avalanche game (earlier in the year) but again Petterson looks every bit as good at similar age if not better. The offensive cieling of both is highly comparable but like I said Eichel is the safe bet for now IMO.

My prediction Petterson is going to be a better two way forward but Eichel will have a higher pt total in their careers.

Ps Only Rantanen has more multi point games this season then Eichel who now has tied Mackinnon with 16.

Yeah this year, he had plenty in his rookie year, and the year after that, and the year after that.

Like you said, Pettersons a rookie after all. Not trying to get into who is better here but Jack has been well known as a sleepwalker for stretches of games previous to this season, can't use the fact that he hasn't only this year as any argument in his favour in this debate about the two players going forward.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

Yeah this year, he had plenty in his rookie year, and the year after that, and the year after that.

Like you said, Pettersons a rookie after all. Not trying to get into who is better here but Jack has been well known as a sleepwalker for stretches of games previous to this season, can't use the fact that he hasn't only this year as any argument in his favour in this debate about the two players going forward.

I don’t really now who said this, it’s true like every player his offensive production wasn’t there before on a nightly basis but he was always consistent the last two years with 57 in 61 and 64 in 67 with absolutely god awful teams and linemates like Girgensens Rodrigues and an aging Pominville. This was at 20 and 21 following serious ankle sprains against all the hardest match ups. The way he skates appears like he floats (if you watch him once or twice) but that’s because of his strides which are the reason he’s always a top transition player, if you don’t want to watch clips go watch his speed skating where he almost beat mcdavid due to just his strides alone from last year. He doesent engage into a explosive mcdavid sprint, he counts on his edge work and mobility. If you heard sabres fans say this it’s because we hold jack to a higher level of expectation, we expect multiple scoring chances, dangles, nice neutral zone plays, he can do all those things and usually does every game even then but sabres fans sincr they have that expectation will say jack wasn’t very good tonight. It didn’t happen very many times other then his rookie year and maybe the first 6-7 games last year. Go back and look how productive he was even then, this year it’s not even close. He’s a first or second stat each night and yeah it’s his fourth year but Mackinnon didn’t get going until his 6th year, and eichels second third and fourth year (already) are bettter then Mackinnons. Hell even eichels first years compared to Mackinnons that same season were better no matter how old or how much more games he played that year. I use this example a lot in here for the reason that because someone looks better earlier doesen mean he always will project to be way better, frankly Mackinnon didn’t get going until rantanen arrived. But that’s neither here nor there.

If you’ve read anything of mind the last few pages I do nothing but praise Petterson.

 

[jj cale]

I don’t really now who said this, it’s true like every player his offensive production wasn’t there before on a nightly basis but he was always consistent the last two years with 57 in 61 and 64 in 67 with absolutely god awful teams and linemates like Girgensens Rodrigues and an aging Pominville. This was at 20 and 21 following serious ankle sprains against all the hardest match ups. The way he skates appears like he floats (if you watch him once or twice) but that’s because of his strides which are the reason he’s always a top transition player, if you don’t want to watch clips go watch his speed skating where he almost beat mcdavid due to just his strides alone from last year. He doesent engage into a explosive mcdavid sprint, he counts on his edge work and mobility. If you heard sabres fans say this it’s because we hold jack to a higher level of expectation, we expect multiple scoring chances, dangles, nice neutral zone plays, he can do all those things and usually does every game even then but sabres fans sincr they have that expectation will say jack wasn’t very good tonight. It didn’t happen very many times other then his rookie year and maybe the first 6-7 games last year. Go back and look how productive he was even then, this year it’s not even close. He’s a first or second stat each night and yeah it’s his fourth year but Mackinnon didn’t get going until his 6th year, and eichels second third and fourth year (already) are bettter then Mackinnons. Hell even eichels first years compared to Mackinnons that same season were better no matter how old or how much more games he played that year. I use this example a lot in here for the reason that because someone looks better earlier doesen mean he always will project to be way better, frankly Mackinnon didn’t get going until rantanen arrived. But that’s neither here nor there.

If you’ve read anything of mind the last few pages I do nothing but praise Petterson.

No argument here, he has played great this year.

For what it is worth I would pick him in this poll, although Petterson sure does give me reason to pause, kid has every tool in the book pretty much. I am just saying Eichel had a rep until this year as a guy who would doze out there, and I got to see a lot of Sabres games and it was well warranted. I would watch him one game and I would go "wow, look at this tank!! can he ever play" then the next two games I would watch him play and say........"calling Jack Eichel, where are you jack?" skating stride aside the guy was just invisible, and invisible is invisible no matter how a guy skates.

It was like two different players. And it wasn't just me, I would go to the gdt on the sabres board and they were all moaning the same thing, and I would keep track of it during the year even in games I couldnt watch on the t.v, stretches of brilliance followed by games of seemingly little interest in playing that night and sabes fans were vocal about. Maybe it was the result of playing on such lousy teams, i dunno. All i am saying is the rep was warranted and the fact he hasn't been like that only THIS year really can't be used an an argument in his favour against a rookie Petterson.

 

[OilCanada92]

You would bank on that?

Yes. It's a figure of speech. If some hypothetical situation arose where I had to pick between Eichel and Pettersson, I'd consider Pettersson the more reliable option. I like his game more.

People are allowed to think Pettersson is going to be better even if Eichel he better today.

 

[82Ninety42011]

I think this is a situation where both teams are ecstatic to have each as their own. In 2-3 years you will have a better idea who wins this but for now it's even steven for me.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

No argument here, he has played great this year.

For what it is worth I would pick him in this poll, although Petterson sure does give me reason to pause, kid has every tool in the book pretty much. I am just saying Eichel had a rep until this year as a guy who would doze out there, and I got to see a lot of Sabres games and it was well warranted. I would watch him one game and I would go "wow, look at this tank!! can he ever play" then the next two games I would watch him play and say........"calling Jack Eichel, where are you jack?" skating stride aside the guy was just invisible, and invisible is invisible no matter how a guy skates.

It was like two different players. And it wasn't just me, I would go to the gdt on the sabres board and they were all moaning the same thing, and I would keep track of it during the year even in games I couldnt watch on the t.v, stretches of brilliance followed by games of seemingly little interest in playing that night and sabes fans were vocal about. Maybe it was the result of playing on such lousy teams, i dunno. All i am saying is the rep was warranted and the fact he hasn't been like that only THIS year really can't be used an an argument in his favour against a rookie Petterson.

No arguments on first part either.

“It wasn’t just me” about that part though, when you tend to lose and your a top player on a team who signs for ten million, even though it hasn’t kicked in sabres fans vented being lazy and of course they’d pick the top guy. Some scapegoated him at times and it really was let ever that fair. Again they hold him to a higher degree of responsibility and productivity then others so a bad game for him was still a decent one for others. Anyway I didn’t see it that way, and his consistent point production doesent say it that way either considering all the fisadvantages he had so I disagree about “well warranted” he wasn’t invisible he was among shot leaders the last two years as well admitted transition rush leaders so if he wasn’t on the score sheet you always noticed him for other things. Did he have a bad gamenhere and there, for him? Sure. But a lot of other young stars get to play with the other stars, he had to do everything himself.

But I get what you’re saying overall and Again this is why EP is so impressive no one is carrying him these kids carry themselves.

Secondary points are more down to luck though. Primary points are inherently more repeatable and a better indication of playmaking talent. Secondary points have more to do with quality of linemates.

Not always, eichels nicest assist or one of them from the first twenty games (as he’s out up some unreal ones this week alone) was a blind no looker on the side wall, someone should post it.

Besides Eichel isn’t really known as a second assist guy, last year he was amongst the top players in primary assists along with Mackinnon and mcdavid and this year has quite a number of them too. 17 of skinners 24 were by Eichel, 10 of those 17 primary and I can count on multiple occasions how many times skinner scored, Eichel did something in that play fantastic and didn’t even get a point. Can’t think of the last skinner goal he didn’t smile and point at jack shaking his head.

Not sure if you’re trying to drag his success down, but judging from what I’ve seen in other threads....also Eichel is leaving a ton of points on the table, he’s hit 4-5 posts in the last three games alone, earlier this year Reinhart and sheary fanned on so many empty net tap ins it wasn’t even funny, this is the the reason skinner replaced sheary in the 7th game on his line. Skinners goals went from 1 in 6 games without him to 23 in the next 27 games with him. Like I’ve said before skinner could show he was a scorer in Carolina but he was off and on and it wasn’t anything like this (23 in 27) not too mention how many empty betters Eichel missed. At one point he had just 5 goals on 115 shots you can imagine how many other points he could have at the moment. Every great producer had his share of missed chances but jack produces multiple quality chances by the period, there’s only one other player I’ve seen in today’s game do that.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

Yes. It's a figure of speech. If some hypothetical situation arose where I had to pick between Eichel and Pettersson, I'd consider Pettersson the more reliable option. I like his game more.

People are allowed to think Pettersson is going to be better even if Eichel he better today.

Sure they’re allowed but “reliable” I don’t know if that’s the right word, one kids played 30 games and has 35 points on a bad team. Very impressive and he does things nightly that make your jaw drop.

The other on a tire fire last year, the year before in awful circumstances still combined with this year has put up 167 in his last 163 games. Fun fact: Matthews has played 163 games and doesent have as many points in that time frame. (Eichels older and Matthews had better rookie year but point remains)

So I dobt know how 30 games is more reliable then a guy who has scored 220 pts in 243 games after injuries, amongst other things. Just questioning the word reliable is all.

As for all round game, that’s kind of a odd thing to say too since both are so well rounded. Eichels one of the most versatile talents in this league where he’s not a one track player where you figure his Schlick out and shit him down. He really doesent have many weaknessses st all, but I don’t blame anyone picking EP for the long run.

Pettersson has defensive awareness and vision down at a younger age I feel. Both dangle past everyone and make wow plays each game and had to carry the burden as the best player on their team since day 1.

 

[CascadiaPuck]

Eichel started his rookie year at 18 years and 345 days old. Pettersson started his at 19 years and 325 days old. There was slightly less than a year age difference between them in their rookie years.

I really hope you're trolling or the US education system is worse than I thought

Aaaaand crickets in response.

As to the poll question, I haven't seen enough of both to vote fairly. As others have said, I'm sure both teams are happy with their respective picks going forward. In the current game, I honestly think both are very reasonable bets to clear 100 pts at some point in the next few years.

 

[Mattilaus]

Icydata.hockey. Don't know if it calculates stuff though since I'm using my phone.

In EP's case I looked up 11 primaries out of 18 assists, so 35/7 = 5, or 20%. Most players tend to split primary and secondary assists at half.

Interesting stuff, thanks!

 

[Apotheosis]

No arguments on first part either.

“It wasn’t just me” about that part though, when you tend to lose and your anguy who signs for ten million, even though it hasn’t kicked in sabres fans vented. Some scapegoated him at times and it really was let ever that fair. Again they hold him to a higher degree of responsibility and productivity then others so a bad game for him was still a decent one for others. Anyway I didn’t see it that way, and his consistent point production doesent say it that way either considering all the fisadvantages he had so I disagree about “well warranted” he wasn’t invisible he was among shot leaders the last two years as well admitted transition rush leaders so if he wasn’t on the score sheet you always noticed him for other things. Did he have a bad gamenhere and there, for him? Sure. But a lot of other young stars get to play with the other stars, he had to do everything himself.

But I get what you’re saying overall and Again this is why EP is so impressive no one is carrying him these kids carry themselves.




Not always, eichels nicest assist or one of them from the first twenty games (as he’s out up some unreal ones this week alone) was a blind no looker on the side wall, someone should post it.

Besides Eichel isn’t really known as a second assist guy, last year he was amongst the top players in primary assists along with Mackinnon and mcdavid and this year has quite a number of them too. 17 of skinners 24 were by Eichel, 10 of those 17 primary and I can count on multiple occasions how many times skinner scored, Eichel did something in that play fantastic and didn’t even get a point. Can’t think of the last skinner goal he didn’t smile and point at jack shaking his head.

Not sure if you’re trying to drag his success down, but judging from what I’ve seen in other threads....also Eichel is leaving a ton of points on the table, he’s hit 4-5 posts in the last three games alone, earlier this year Reinhart and sheary fanned on so many empty net tap ins it wasn’t even funny, this is the the reason skinner replaced sheary in the 7th game on his line. Skinners goals went from 1 in 6 games without him to 23 in the next 27 games with him. Like I’ve said before skinner could show he was a scorer in Carolina but he was off and on and it wasn’t anything like this (23 in 27) not too mention how many empty betters Eichel missed. At one point he had just 5 goals on 115 shots you can imagine how many other points he could have at the moment. Every great producer had his share of missed chances but jack produces multiple quality chances by the period, there’s only one other player I’ve seen in today’s game do that.

Dude, I was defending Eichel..

 

[Tage2Tuch]

One thing I will add about Pettersen is he seems like the naslund with a higher dueling and Boeser can be Bertuzzi just smaller and not as aggressive would Be one way to put it.

Dude, I was defending Eichel..

That’s why I asked, I know your AV from the Matthews crap in other threads, I must of read what you said different my bad. I swore I saw you say something about not getting primary assists and someone quoted you (a sabres fan) saying he did. If it’s my mistake apologies.

 

[Apotheosis]

One thing I will add about Pettersen is he seems like the naslund with a higher dueling and Boeser can be Bertuzzi just smaller and not as aggressive would Be one way to put it.




That’s why I asked, I know your AV from the Matthews crap in other threads, I must of read what you said different my bad. I swore I saw you say something about not getting primary assists and someone quoted you (a sabres fan) saying he did. If it’s my mistake apologies.

What "Matthews" crap do you speak of?

Also, no. I specifically said I take Eichel over EP. EP is riding an unsustainable shooting percentage. Another poster pointed towards his low secondary assists percentage, in which I said that secondary assists are inherently more dependent on linemates than primary assists, hence why primary assist numbers are a much better indicator of future production.

 

[OilCanada92]

Sure they’re allowed but “reliable” I don’t know if that’s the right word, one kids played 30 games and has 35 points on a bad team. Very impressive and he does things nightly that make your jaw drop.

The other on a tire fire last year, the year before in awful circumstances still combined with this year has put up 167 in his last 163 games. Fun fact: Matthews has played 163 games and doesent have as many points in that time frame. (Eichels older and Matthews had better rookie year but point remains)

So I dobt know how 30 games is more reliable then a guy who has scored 220 pts in 243 games after injuries, amongst other things. Just questioning the word reliable is all.

As for all round game, that’s kind of a odd thing to say too since both are so well rounded. Eichels one of the most versatile talents in this league where he’s not a one track player where you figure his Schlick out and **** him down. He really doesent have many weaknessses st all, but I don’t blame anyone picking EP for the long run.

Pettersson has defensive awareness and vision down at a younger age I feel. Both dangle past everyone and make wow plays each game and had to carry the burden as the best player on their team since day 1.

I know you mean well but this level of hair splitting is what turns people off HF. Maybe reliable wasn't the right word but I'd like to think you knew what I meant. Maybe you didn't and that's my fault.

I have more "faith" in Pettersson. It's a hunch. A gut feeling. I'm going out on a limb.