I would too if he played a full season with the team but he didn't, so he goes down as a Penguin footnote. Otherwise, I would have him on the 2nd line with Sid and Geno.
Total playoff series wins is not like maintaining a point pace, it's more akin to total career points. If player X played 1200 games and player Y played in 700 games who is more likely to compile a greater number of points? Lemieux's health issues reduced his overall longevity so obviously its impossible for him to have played in a simular amount of series. Secondly you seemed to be forgetting that he was drafted onto the worst team in the league, one completely devoid of talent. It took the Pens 5 years just to make the playoffs. I would think that Detroit fans of all people would be well aware of difficulties of a rebuild.
That list has 5 Wings players vs 3 Pens so ofc their totals would add up higher lol. Fact remains the Pens have the better overall winning % and more cups between the two over the last 40;
| Cups | Wins | Losses | Win % | |
| Pens | 5 | 37 | 23 | 61.7% |
| Wings | 4 | 37 | 26 | 58.7% |
Sure lets use small sample sizes and extrapolate data from that. But in case you forgot the Wings lost two of those three games on their way to losing the cup because they were far too focused on defensive play and doing all they can to stop Crosby and Malkin. In the end they were defeated by two heretofore unknown offensive ledgeds of the game; Tyler Kennedy and Maxime Talbot. So mission accomplished?
That logic is so backwards I don’t even think I can dissect it.Total playoff series wins is not like maintaining a point pace, it's more akin to total career points. If player X played 1200 games and player Y played in 700 games who is more likely to compile a greater number of points? Lemieux's health issues reduced his overall longevity so obviously its impossible for him to have played in a simular amount of series. Secondly you seemed to be forgetting that he was drafted onto the worst team in the league, one completely devoid of talent. It took the Pens 5 years just to make the playoffs. I would think that Detroit fans of all people would be well aware of difficulties of a rebuild.
Lidstrom meanwhile was gifted into a situation where he joined a playoff team with two of the best centers in the game and by having the talented Konstantinov ride shotgun with him right from the get go.
That list has 5 Wings players vs 3 Pens so ofc their totals would add up higher lol. Fact remains the Pens have the better overall winning % and more cups between the two over the last 40;
Cups Wins Losses Win % Pens 5 37 23 61.7% Wings 4 37 26 58.7%
Sure lets use small sample sizes and extrapolate data from that. But in case you forgot the Wings lost two of those three games on their way to losing the cup because they were far too focused on defensive play and doing all they can to stop Crosby and Malkin. In the end they were defeated by two heretofore unknown offensive ledgeds of the game; Tyler Kennedy and Maxime Talbot. So mission accomplished?
I'm not the one that tried to have Malkin dunk all over Datsyuk in that '09 Final, but you do you.Sure lets use small sample sizes and extrapolate data from that. But in case you forgot the Wings lost two of those three games on their way to losing the cup because they were far too focused on defensive play and doing all they can to stop Crosby and Malkin. In the end they were defeated by two heretofore unknown offensive ledgeds of the game; Tyler Kennedy and Maxime Talbot. So mission accomplished?
Ok... And nothing I said even requires any logical thinking it's just the simple facts;
There's always one excuses or another that the losing side will come up with.
Imo loading up Crosby Lemieux and Jagr on the first line is probably overkill. It's nice a fantasy to be sure but it wouldn't even be necessary to beat the Wings. My line ups would mostly use existing lines that dominated the league in their own time with a few modifications;
| gm | G | A | PT | PPG | |
| Lemieux | 79 | 84 | 121 | 205 | 2.59 |
| Stevens | 71 | 54 | 62 | 116 | 1.63 |
| Tocchet | 77 | 53 | 65 | 118 | 1.53 |
| 227 | 191 | 248 | 442 | 1.95 |
| gm | G | A | PT | PPG | |
| Gretzky | 80 | 73 | 135 | 208 | 2.60 |
| Kurri | 73 | 71 | 64 | 135 | 1.84 |
| Krushelnyski | 80 | 43 | 45 | 88 | 1.10 |
| 233 | 187 | 244 | 431 | 1.85 |
Imo loading up Crosby Lemieux and Jagr on the first line is probably overkill. It's nice a fantasy to be sure but it wouldn't even be necessary to beat the Wings. My line ups would mostly use existing lines that dominated the league in their own time with a few modifications;
1st Line Stevens-Lemieux-Tocchet
2nd Line Cullen/Crosby-Recchi
3rd Line Nedved-Francis-Jagr
4th Line Neal-Malkin-Kovalev
For those who don't know, this is what that first line did together after Tocchet was traded to the Pens on February 20, 1992;
View attachment 737890
If you take out Mario's 23-game cancer sabbatical(where Stevens and Tocchet were not only without Lemieux but separated and being centered by Francis and Straka instead) the numbers come out to this;
gm G A PT PPG Lemieux 79 84 121 205 2.59 Stevens 71 54 62 116 1.63 Tocchet 77 53 65 118 1.53 227 191 248 442 1.95
This was not just the best line in hockey, this was equivalent to the best single season performance by a line in hockey history; the famed 84-85 Oilers line of Gretzky-Kurri-Krushelnyski;
gm G A PT PPG Gretzky 80 73 135 208 2.60 Kurri 73 71 64 135 1.84 Krushelnyski 80 43 45 88 1.10 233 187 244 431 1.85
Heck that Pens combination scored more goals in a less games. And in case Stevens at his peak is somehow isn't enough one can always bump Crosby up to be with Lemieux instead.
As for that second line, people seem to forget how good the Cullen-Recchi pair was in their first couple years and that he was traded for Ron Francis. Obviously Francis was the far greater player overall but a young Cullen in his prime with Recchi and Stevens was nothing to laugh about either. In fact that trio was the best line in the league in 1990-91; Before he was pulled off the first line when Mario returned from injury, Cullen and Recchi were 2nd and 3rd in the league behind only Gretzky in scoring;
View attachment 737891
It's not like they were a one-season wonder either, they started to click from the year before. By the end of '91 season even after Cullen was traded for Francis the two still finished 4th and 5th in scoring.
View attachment 737892
Now take a young Stevens off that line and put peak Crosby on it and my gawd would it tear up the league. Or one can always just put Guentzel on the wing there instead in case you don't trust that Cullen was a legitimate scorer.
Line 3?
Oh just another best line in the league, this time the 1995-96 season where the trio of Nedved-Francis-Jagr finished 2nd, 4th and 14th in scoring;
View attachment 737893
Jagr and Francis were pure money together. They did it with Nedved that year but the season prior they finished 1st and 4th in scoring without Lemieux on the team and the next year they finished 6th and 9th in scoring with Jags missing almost 20 games. That whole 3-year span they were 1st and 3rd in scoring and that's arguably even before Jagr reached his true peak.
And Line 4?
I'm having a serious case of Déjà vu right now because two of these components were again part of yet another best line in the league in 2011-12 where Malkin and Neal finished 1st and 7th in scoring. Now give that line a HUGE upgrade replacing Chris Kunitz with peak Kovalev. The line might be weak on defense but Malkin and Kovalev can just play keep away all day long, like the second coming of Lemieux and Jagr.
Seriously it took all of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hossa, Lidström, Rafalski and Kronwall just to hold back Crosby playing with the ghost of Bill Guerin and first line wanna-be Kunitz, while Malkin was stuck playing with loose change by the names of Fedotenko and Talbot. Even if you surmise that the Wings core of 07-08 & 08-09 could somehow hold back the massively improved Malkin and Crosby lines just because they are "perfectly healthy and well-rested" who are you going to use to hold back the Lemieux and Jagr lines? Fedorov on Lemieux? and Yzerman on the Jagr? Nedved-Francis-Jagr vs Shanahan-Yzerman-Gallant would at least be pretty even, though now your using one of Shanahan or Gallant on their off-wings.
But Sheppard-Fedorov-Kozlov doesn't have the offensive firepower to hang with Stevens-Lemieux-Tocchet nor can they stop them. Yeah Fedorov was a 200-foot monster in 93-94 but don't kid yourself he's not above peak Lemieux. The way some of you Wings fans talk about him you'd think it was HIM and NOT Lemieux who was one of the 4 GOATS of hockey history. And who's playing D behind them?? 37 year old Fetisov and Chelios??
Look, if the Wings had Fetisov and Chelios at their absolute peaks(along with peak Hasek) we'd have something to talk about, but they DIDN'T. While the Pens lineup of players were all in their primes during their time with the team. Don't act like that doesn't matter.
Imo loading up Crosby Lemieux and Jagr on the first line is probably overkill. It's nice a fantasy to be sure but it wouldn't even be necessary to beat the Wings. My line ups would mostly use existing lines that dominated the league in their own time with a few modifications;
1st Line Stevens-Lemieux-Tocchet
2nd Line Cullen/Crosby-Recchi
3rd Line Nedved-Francis-Jagr
4th Line Neal-Malkin-Kovalev
For those who don't know, this is what that first line did together after Tocchet was traded to the Pens on February 20, 1992;
View attachment 737890
If you take out Mario's 23-game cancer sabbatical(where Stevens and Tocchet were not only without Lemieux but separated and being centered by Francis and Straka instead) the numbers come out to this;
gm G A PT PPG Lemieux 79 84 121 205 2.59 Stevens 71 54 62 116 1.63 Tocchet 77 53 65 118 1.53 227 191 248 442 1.95
This was not just the best line in hockey, this was equivalent to the best single season performance by a line in hockey history; the famed 84-85 Oilers line of Gretzky-Kurri-Krushelnyski;
gm G A PT PPG Gretzky 80 73 135 208 2.60 Kurri 73 71 64 135 1.84 Krushelnyski 80 43 45 88 1.10 233 187 244 431 1.85
Heck that Pens combination scored more goals in a less games. And in case Stevens at his peak is somehow isn't enough one can always bump Crosby up to be with Lemieux instead.
As for that second line, people seem to forget how good the Cullen-Recchi pair was in their first couple years and that he was traded for Ron Francis. Obviously Francis was the far greater player overall but a young Cullen in his prime with Recchi and Stevens was nothing to laugh about either. In fact that trio was the best line in the league in 1990-91; Before he was pulled off the first line when Mario returned from injury, Cullen and Recchi were 2nd and 3rd in the league behind only Gretzky in scoring;
View attachment 737891
It's not like they were a one-season wonder either, they started to click from the year before. By the end of '91 season even after Cullen was traded for Francis the two still finished 4th and 5th in scoring.
View attachment 737892
Now take a young Stevens off that line and put peak Crosby on it and my gawd would it tear up the league. Or one can always just put Guentzel on the wing there instead in case you don't trust that Cullen was a legitimate scorer.
Line 3?
Oh just another best line in the league, this time the 1995-96 season where the trio of Nedved-Francis-Jagr finished 2nd, 4th and 14th in scoring;
View attachment 737893
Jagr and Francis were pure money together. They did it with Nedved that year but the season prior they finished 1st and 4th in scoring without Lemieux on the team and the next year they finished 6th and 9th in scoring with Jags missing almost 20 games. That whole 3-year span they were 1st and 3rd in scoring and that's arguably even before Jagr reached his true peak.
And Line 4?
I'm having a serious case of Déjà vu right now because two of these components were again part of yet another best line in the league in 2011-12 where Malkin and Neal finished 1st and 7th in scoring. Now give that line a HUGE upgrade replacing Chris Kunitz with peak Kovalev. The line might be weak on defense but Malkin and Kovalev can just play keep away all day long, like the second coming of Lemieux and Jagr.
Seriously it took all of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hossa, Lidström, Rafalski and Kronwall just to hold back Crosby playing with the ghost of Bill Guerin and first line wanna-be Kunitz, while Malkin was stuck playing with loose change by the names of Fedotenko and Talbot. Even if you surmise that the Wings core of 07-08 & 08-09 could somehow hold back the massively improved Malkin and Crosby lines just because they are "perfectly healthy and well-rested" who are you going to use to hold back the Lemieux and Jagr lines? Fedorov on Lemieux? and Yzerman on the Jagr? Nedved-Francis-Jagr vs Shanahan-Yzerman-Gallant would at least be pretty even, though now your using one of Shanahan or Gallant on their off-wings.
But Sheppard-Fedorov-Kozlov doesn't have the offensive firepower to hang with Stevens-Lemieux-Tocchet nor can they stop them. Yeah Fedorov was a 200-foot monster in 93-94 but don't kid yourself he's not above peak Lemieux. The way some of you Wings fans talk about him you'd think it was HIM and NOT Lemieux who was one of the 4 GOATS of hockey history. And who's playing D behind them?? 37 year old Fetisov and Chelios??
Look, if the Wings had Fetisov and Chelios at their absolute peaks(along with peak Hasek) we'd have something to talk about, but they DIDN'T. While the Pens lineup of players were all in their primes during their time with the team. Don't act like that doesn't matter.
Wow... Ranking players based on 10-game sample sizes... ok then.
And I suppose Fedorov was defending against both Lemieux and Jagr simultaneously alone in the games that overlap
True, point taken and agreed. I was analyzing it more from a season long approach rather than a best of 7.
Btw did you really think we wouldn't delve more into this for increased context?
Date | Lemieux | Fedorov |
1991-92 | | |
Jan 16 | 0-1-1 0 | 0-1-1 -2 |
Mar 24 | 1-2-3 +2 | 1-1-2 -1 |
1992-93 | | |
Oct 22 | 3-2-5 +1 | 1-1-2 -1 |
Nov 13 | 0-0-0 -1 | 1-1-2 +2 |
1995-96 | | |
Jan 5 | 1-2-3 +1 | 1-1-2 0 |
Feb 3 | 0-0-0 -2 | 1-2-3 +3 |
1996-97 | | |
Feb 8 | 2-0-2 -1 | 0-1-1 0 |
Feb 27 | 0-0-0 0 | 1-0-1 0 |
2002-03 | | |
Oct 25 | 0-2-2 -2 | 3-0-3 +3 |
Mar 18 | 0-0-0 -3 | 2-1-3 +2 |
There are arguments for the Pens to be sure but they don't rest on Kevin Stevens or a 22-23 year old Mark Recchi.
It's incredible Crosby was able to function at all with six players collectively defending him and him alone.
You've had no issues with 3 games sample sizes when it's been alleged that Malkin ran roughshod over Datsyuk in the '09 Final...Wow... Ranking players based on 10-game sample sizes... ok then.
Interesting, if we go by what you are suggesting than the HF Top 100 has essentially been using a flawed methodology to rank players. According to you they should be ranking players based on incredibly small sample sizes without any consideration for linemates, overall strength of the team, scheduling factors, nagging injuries and the game to game puck luck that hockey is WELL known for... as opposed to using hundred and thousand-plus game long sample sizes like they have always done.
But if you really believe that strongly in it perhaps you can advocate for using this method to rank players the next time they convene. There is a thread for it btw, I'm sure the members would be open to suggestions such as this;
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time
The following is the final list of the top hockey players of all-time as determined by 32 voting members of the History of Hockey community. RankPlayerPositionBornNationBirth City 1Wayne GretzkyC1961CanadaBrantford, Ontario 2Gordie...forums.hfboards.com
And I suppose Fedorov was defending against both Lemieux and Jagr simultaneously alone in the games that overlap
So stats when it's the Pens beating up on bottom feeders to blow up their numbers, it's cool. But inverse not so much. Goooot it.Btw did you really think we wouldn't delve more into this for increased context?
Lemeiux vs Fedorov head to head;
The argument that norrisnick is trying to present is that Fedorov was "better than" and "could contain Lemieux" thanks in large part to ranking up 5 goals and 6 point in 2002-03 while the 110 point Wings beat up on the 65 point Pens. Bravo on Fedorov for out scoring a well past his prime age 37 Lemieux playing on the second worst team in the league
In the games that actually matter for the purpose of this conversation while Lemieux was at his absolute peak, Feds "contained" him to just 4 goals and 9 points in 4 games; all 4 of those goals and 8 points of which came in 3 games(2.67ppg) while Stevens and Tocchet were his line mates.
And No, Mario was no longer at his physical peak by 1995-96.
That conversation has already been had on this site here;
Was Lemieux still in his peak in 1995-96?
I'm working on a long thread and I had a question that needs to be answered before I can move forward. I'm sure there will never be an absolute consensus but I would at least like to know the majority thinks. The problem I've run into is determining if certain seasons were still part of the...
We're talking about a late 30's Hasek....so no, not really.
Literally never mentioned that once. Go look back in the thread and take a look, you are getting confused about who is using what argument(s).
What are you talking about? The 91-92 and 92-93 Red Wings were bottom feeders?? They were in the top 5 in the league both seasons. But sure you do you... if you want to call a Red Wings team with Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Konstantinov and others a bottom feeder, by all means.
So suddenly the performance of each player is no longer relevant when it's 4 games but it suddenly provides such incredible clarity at 6 or 8 games? Gotcha.
So if Gretzky did poorly in games against Trottier that means that Trottier was actually better then him? But only when they played each other right? I mean it's not like there's plenty of factors that could have effected the outcome of a players production in a two games a year... but yeah, we totally should place more value on those two games than the entirety of a seasons worth of games.
My point exactly. Malkin clowning Datsyuk in the '09 Final has been brought up numerous times and you never once swooped in in your statmobile to correct it.
This.
I'm bringing up the silly argument that while ye olde unstoppablee Marioe may have clowned the league, Fedorov, head to head clowned Mario for their careers. Mario only comes ahead if you reduce the sample to 4 games.Mario was at his peak from 88 to 93. THAT'S the player I'm using and for what little predictive value it's worth - I'm NOT the one here saying it's worth a lot - that player scored 4 goals and 9 points in 4 games against the Wings. Your the one who keeps bringing up the silly argument that a handful of games are somehow of incredible value, except when it hurts your argument.
So suddenly the performance of each player is no longer relevant when it's 4 games but it suddenly provides such incredible clarity at 6 or 8 games? Gotcha.
Yeah and your sample size uses less than 5% of mine, you know multiple seasons worth of games. And only 2.5% of that 5% sample size actually supports your argument. People, this guy right here is literally trying to use a single game that happen on February 3rd, 1996 to support Fedorov > Lemieux
The head to head games argument is the weakest one anyone could make in a discussion about which team would beat the other head to head. Repeat that to yourself a couple times.
If the question is "who would you take in a head to head game, Gretzky or Trottier?" Yes, that's what that means.
That's all well and good, but supporting the fantasy hockey notion is the only thing you're doing parading around those offensive numbers accrued in games against the rest of the league.
Kovalev kind of disappeared in the playoffs during his 3 peak years in Pittsburg though right?
