Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: We Hayes Dubas's offseason moves so far

[Zbynek]

Yeah this may be the worst top six winger group we’ve had since 13-14 to start the season.

It's 1 injury away from worst in the league. No Sid and you for sure have the worst top-6 in the NHL.

Last night I was catching up with an old friend and reflecting on Dubas' moves this offseason. How does this org continue to ignore the most glaring issue (PP and a glaring lack of a shoot-first guy) in favor of getting Sully-friendly guys like Blake Lizotte. When has the PK ever been the issue for this team? It never has. Meanwhile on the coaching side, we get Sully's little brother.

From the PR side of things, we get a smugger Dubas than ever. If there is a vision here, it is a really, really bad one. Goddamn, his face really pisses me off. We went from spending a 1st+2nd just 11 months ago to complete a 4some of HOF guys to make a big run for it, in Dubas' own words, only to give up and take Kevin Hayes on as our defensive 3C the very next season.

So weak man

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I can't wait for Mike Sullivan to impart his incredible wisdom to young Yager.

"Brayden, we need you to learn how to play with Crosby on your off wing, I see you scored 35 goals in Juniors, impressive, but to play with Crosby, you'll need to learn how to get the puck to Sid no matter what, your job is to get the puck to Crosby and learn how to play Defense. If you get the puck and you see Sid, pass the puck, always."

I think the funniest thing for me was to see Jake Guentzel put up a 1.47ppg pace with Carolina. That's very close to the pace he put up with Malkin (1.32ppg), which was his best PPG mark of his career until he left. Jake is going to go and put up his best career numbers in Tampa and it'll be fun to see. Because this coach would rather keep 1 player happy than make the team better.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

It's 1 injury away from worst in the league. No Sid and you for sure have the worst top-6 in the NHL.

Last night I was catching up with an old friend and reflecting on Dubas' moves this offseason. How does this org continue to ignore the most glaring issue (PP and a glaring lack of a shoot-first guy) in favor of getting Sully-friendly guys like Blake Lizotte. When has the PK ever been the issue for this team? It never has. Meanwhile on the coaching side, we get Sully's little brother.

From the PR side of things, we get a smugger Dubas than ever. If there is a vision here, it is a really, really bad one. Goddamn, his face really pisses me off. We went from spending a 1st+2nd just 11 months ago to complete a 4some of HOF guys to make a big run for it, in Dubas' own words, only to give up and take Kevin Hayes on as our defensive 3C the very next season.

So weak man

This team missed the playoffs with Sid playing every single game. What the f*** are you lot even on about anymore?

Mike Sullivan will f*** this up with or without Sid, but to have Crosby for the first time in his career be 100% healthy for 2 seasons in a row and Sullivan shit the bed and you lot think if he misses time it could be worse?

LOL

Honestly, pre-humbled Disco was a wanker but even he found a way to make the playoffs with Sid & Geno missing half the season. Sullivan is an ass clown, the roster is whatever, a good enough coach can make it work, Sullivan is not that and no I am not advocating bringing back Disco.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Nov 10, 2019 to Dec 30th, 2019 was a good time. Also funny to look back on in that period.

John Marino had 26pts that season, 14 of those came during that stretch. That entire line of Guentzel, Malkin, Rust was such a monster, the Penguins have never had a line produce that well again in the Sid & Geno era. For 19-22 games, it was something.

 

[canadianguy77]

Nov 10, 2019 to Dec 30th, 2019 was a good time. Also funny to look back on in that period.

John Marino had 26pts that season, 14 of those came during that stretch. That entire line of Guentzel, Malkin, Rust was such a monster, the Penguins have never had a line produce that well again in the Sid & Geno era. For 19-22 games, it was something.

Didn’t it amount to like a goal or two more over season compared to the rate Sid Jake And Rust produced that season? It was definitely a minuscule difference.

 

[Zbynek]

This team missed the playoffs with Sid playing every single game. What the f*** are you lot even on about anymore?

Mike Sullivan will f*** this up with or without Sid, but to have Crosby for the first time in his career be 100% healthy for 2 seasons in a row and Sullivan shit the bed and you lot think if he misses time it could be worse?

Oh we are f***ed regardless. But without Sid we are Flyers/CBJ level. Actually maybe worse.

This org just loves getting Sully his players and now, his ego strokers as well in Qunn. After multiple seasons straight of disappointment on the powerplay, the PP actually doubled down and got worse last year. Dubas responds by signing a bunch of bullshit for the bottom-6 and a guy who will suck Sully's schlong even harder.

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

Sorry I meant 14-15.

We had Dupuis, Comeau, and Hornqvist as the other top six guys. I think I’d take Rust, Rakell, Bunting over them and Kunitz.

Kuntiz was there.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I don’t think it’s that unfathomable for this team getting some bounces and making the playoffs, even as a seeded Metro team. If you get Gryz bouncing back, Raks playing like he did once he got back from injury…

Unfortunately I don’t think it’s hard to imagine a slog of a season and finishing with like the 9th pick either.

Goaltending doesn’t make me feel warm and fuzzy but also doesn’t seem like it’ll be bad enough to finish with a real high pick.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I don’t think it’s that unfathomable for this team getting some bounces and making the playoffs, even as a seeded Metro team. If you get Gryz bouncing back, Raks playing like he did once he got back from injury…

Unfortunately I don’t think it’s hard to imagine a slog of a season and finishing with like the 9th pick either.

Goaltending doesn’t make me feel warm and fuzzy but also doesn’t seem like it’ll be bad enough to finish with a real high pick.

Sid was healthy the year before and Raks had 60 pts and Sullivan still found a way to make sure they avoided the playoffs.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Sid was healthy the year before and Raks had 60 pts and Sullivan still found a way to make sure they avoided the playoffs.

Pens were pretty good last year 5v5, lack of timely saves and PP drained them. OT issues cost them points too.

I think stale coaching and mental fortitude were big issues. I think once you moved Jake and got Bunting in you saw some of that confirmed IMO, because the coach couldn’t attach Jake to Sids hip anymore with a healthy roster.

we didn’t necessarily address the bolded but my overall point is most outcomes wouldn’t shock me this year, besides a Cup win/run.

I don’t think the roster is poor, I do think it’s super vanilla/mid. Kinda reminds me of when the Wild were the epitome of middle of the road.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

This team could definitely make the playoffs because the East, outside of like the top 3 to 5 teams, is pretty much a septic tank full of shit.

They could also find themselves picking top-5 next summer. Goaltending's volatile. Coaching's a shitshow. Sid's not gonna be a PPG+ player forever. The top-9 winger situation is ugly. Bottom-6 still can't score.

I think it more depends on how the other teams near the bottom third of the East play out than the Penguins' performance tbh. Does Detroit take a notable step forward? Ottawa? Buffalo? The Devils should be a lot better if they can stay healthy. I don't think the Caps and Isles are anything more than borderline WC teams, if that, and I think that's probably where the Pens end up if I had to guess. I think teams like Montreal and Columbus probably suck again.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

This team could definitely make the playoffs because the East, outside of like the top 3 to 5 teams, is pretty much a septic tank full of shit.

They could also find themselves picking top-5 next summer. Goaltending's volatile. Coaching's a shitshow. Sid's not gonna be a PPG+ player forever. The top-9 winger situation is ugly. Bottom-6 still can't score.

I think it more depends on how the other teams near the bottom third of the East play out than the Penguins' performance tbh. Does Detroit take a notable step forward? Ottawa? Buffalo? The Devils should be a lot better if they can stay healthy. I don't think the Caps and Isles are anything more than borderline WC teams, if that, and I think that's probably where the Pens end up if I had to guess. I think teams like Montreal and Columbus probably suck again.

Yeah the bottom could easily fall out with the skater group. IMO if things are rough early in season I think it’ll be tough sledding for this team. Not gonna be a lot of energy if they fall behind in standings.

Unfortunately I think the ~8M tandem in net is going to give you goaltending that’s good enough to keep you out of basement in that scenario and you don’t get a super high pick. I also think if this team is actually good somehow that same tandem holds them back.

 

[SEALBound]

I can't wait for Mike Sullivan to impart his incredible wisdom to young Yager.



I think the funniest thing for me was to see Jake Guentzel put up a 1.47ppg pace with Carolina. That's very close to the pace he put up with Malkin (1.32ppg), which was his best PPG mark of his career until he left. Jake is going to go and put up his best career numbers in Tampa and it'll be fun to see. Because this coach would rather keep 1 player happy than make the team better.

As much as I hate Sullivan and want to agree out of spite for him, I'm not sure that's entirely true. Yager likes to shoot and Crosby wants the puck, yes, but Crosby also likes making plays. He lost his trigger man in Jake so tell Yager "Hey, work with Sid and shoot what he gives you." wouldn't be the worst direction.

Starting Yager at wing to work him into the NHL and then transitioning him to center when appropriate isn't the worst option. That's the Jordan Staal route and it worked out well. Granted, the team's makeup was slightly different but still.

Yager-Sid-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Rakell
DOC-Hayes-Beauvillier
Poulin-Lizotte-Puljujarvi

Would be my "preferred" lineup assuming two things: 1. Hayes is a part of the roster. 2. The "new" guys are prioritized over the "old" guys. Meaning, if push comes to shove, Acciari is a HS over Lizotte.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Ha... I always appreciate your enthusiasm re: Malkin, HoG. But I just can't agree. No hate... but dude is old and has sustained a ton of injuries. His skating is... um... rough. And it's a skating league. And if people are pinning their hopes on Bunting with a side of Quinn to alleviate things... well... I guess I'm just going to have to say I'm extremely doubtful. Bunting stands a better chance of turning back into a 3rd/4th liner as he does being a top contributor next season IMO. We've seen that fish before.

All that said I find it puzzling that he seems to keep finding his name at the center of the powerplay controversy when, again... the team came to the same conclusion ya'll did and yanked him. It did nothing... improved nothing. Funny dude still catches the blame when he's not even on the ice lol

Sid is a bigger problem on the PP than Malkin. I'll die on this hill

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

So is Acciari's but Acciari did very little to help us win games last year. Bottom 6 production was an issue last year. If they want any hope of competing, they need production throughout the lineup.

Don't worry. Mike Sullivan always puts his bottom 6 guys in positions to succeed.

 

[Andy99]

Yeah seems smart to put a lad on his off wing in a pressure situation where the line is pure ass defensively and he'll need to cloak that with insane offense.

It's good to keep those expectations low like that.

I mean I can see Yager, if he makes the team, being a RW for Geno, it’s just that the coach doesn’t like to give Geno nice things lol…he’s not making the team as a center most likely unless someone like Geno gets injured in training camp

 

[SEALBound]

Yeah the bottom could easily fall out with the skater group. IMO if things are rough early in season I think it’ll be tough sledding for this team. Not gonna be a lot of energy if they fall behind in standings.

Unfortunately I think the ~8M tandem in net is going to give you goaltending that’s good enough to keep you out of basement in that scenario and you don’t get a super high pick. I also think if this team is actually good somehow that same tandem holds them back.

One of the issues I currently see right now is, IF the bottom starts to fall out, we do have guys that we can and should send out but it may be more difficult than we expect due to the extra year on so many guys contracts, primarily Lizotte, Hayes, and Acciari. If we are out at the TDL, I think guys like Eller, Beauvillier, and Grzelcyk will be easy enough to move, provided their level of play is acceptable.

Those other longer-term deals like Acciari, Graves, Hayes, Jarry, etc, will make things tougher for Dubas. Obviously, we can't pay to send anyone out, and it would be ludicrous to do so, but that may mean we are stuck with more of the same next year. I don't want to buy guys out, but it would be great if this could also be the final year for Acciari, Hayes, and Lizotte. I don't have anything against Lizotte, but I'd rather it have been a one-year deal so that if it doesn't work out well, he's gone.

I just wish we had more flexibility to truly revamp the roster if it doesn't work again. You can't do that when you sign (or trade for) non-impact players with more than one year on a deal. I don't mind lottery tickets like Beauvillier and Grzelcyk and I hope they rebound but those are one-year deals. If they work, great. If not, bu-bye and you try someone else.

If we struggle, it would be great to be able to trade out: Jarry, Eller, and Acciari at the very least. The other new guys, I can hold off before I pass judgment.

I mean I can see Yager, if he makes the team, being a RW for Geno, it’s just that the coach doesn’t like to give Geno nice things lol…he’s not making the team as a center most likely unless someone like Geno gets injured in training camp

I've been running through scenarios for Yager on the RW and I just can't see it unless he just absolutely kills it in camp and pulls a Marino.

LW makes much more sense given that we don't really have a 1LW. We have a couple 3LW. Have Yager and DOC as the 1/3LWs that can rotate a bit as needed, makes creating lineups a lot easier.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

One of the issues I currently see right now is, IF the bottom starts to fall out, we do have guys that we can and should send out but it may be more difficult than we expect due to the extra year on so many guys contracts, primarily Lizotte, Hayes, and Acciari. If we are out at the TDL, I think guys like Eller, Beauvillier, and Grzelcyk will be easy enough to move, provided their level of play is acceptable.

Those other longer-term deals like Acciari, Graves, Hayes, Jarry, etc, will make things tougher for Dubas. Obviously, we can't pay to send anyone out, and it would be ludicrous to do so, but that may mean we are stuck with more of the same next year. I don't want to buy guys out, but it would be great if this could also be the final year for Acciari, Hayes, and Lizotte. I don't have anything against Lizotte, but I'd rather it have been a one-year deal so that if it doesn't work out well, he's gone.

I just wish we had more flexibility to truly revamp the roster if it doesn't work again. You can't do that when you sign (or trade for) non-impact players with more than one year on a deal. I don't mind lottery tickets like Beauvillier and Grzelcyk and I hope they rebound but those are one-year deals. If they work, great. If not, bu-bye and you try someone else.

If we struggle, it would be great to be able to trade out: Jarry, Eller, and Acciari at the very least. The other new guys, I can hold off before I pass judgment.


I've been running through scenarios for Yager on the RW and I just can't see it unless he just absolutely kills it in camp and pulls a Marino.

LW makes much more sense given that we don't really have a 1LW. We have a couple 3LW. Have Yager and DOC as the 1/3LWs that can rotate a bit as needed, makes creating lineups a lot easier.

If the team struggles- I’m not worried about the inability to move guys on short term deals if they have zero value. Not like you’d get anything for them if they were expiring contracts anyway and we’re talking about $5m ish in space in the summer anyway. Just not material enough to worry about the fact we can’t get a 6th for Kevin Hayes or Acciari.

Graves and Jarry are but we’re likely stuck with Graves. Only way Jarry is movable without paying or retention is if he plays well and we’re likely not struggling with good goaltending.

 

[deakka]

When should we get nervous about Sid not signing an extension yet?

If the signing is not announced before or at the 7th of August (8/7) I think I'll panic a bit.

 

[BusinessGoose]

When should we get nervous about Sid not signing an extension yet?

If the signing is not announced before or at the 7th of August (8/7) I think I'll panic a bit.

July 1st 2025, really

 

[deakka]

July 1st 2025, really

THAT is a date I'm not comfortable waiting for

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

We don't get nervous about Sid not signing because it doesn't matter, to be brutally honest. Either he wants to retire a Penguin knowing the team's in for some real bleak years, or he wants to go elsewhere for a chance to actually compete. /shrug

 

[SEALBound]

If the team struggles- I’m not worried about the inability to move guys on short term deals if they have zero value. Not like you’d get anything for them if they were expiring contracts anyway and we’re talking about $5m ish in space in the summer anyway. Just not material enough to worry about the fact we can’t get a 6th for Kevin Hayes or Acciari.

Graves and Jarry are but we’re likely stuck with Graves. Only way Jarry is movable without paying or retention is if he plays well and we’re likely not struggling with good goaltending.

I don't disagree but I would remind you to keep in mind that us trading guys is not just our performance (or any individual player's) in a vacuum. Things happen to other teams around the league and needs change.

You could have a team whose goaltending has completely melted down. A 3C or 4C could get hurt and their depth isn't pulling their weight. A dman could get injured and team could need a solid 2nd/3rd pairing guy.

At the moment, if a team suddenly needed a 4C, there aren't any options in FA that would be better than Acciari for example or Eller for that matter if talking 3C or 4C. If the cost to do it is a 5th? Easy decision. You need a depth 3rd/4th line player - Bemstrom, Beauvillier, Puljujarvi, Acciari, etc are all good options as well who will come for cheap.

You're right though in that Jarry and Graves are slightly different beasts. I think a Graves trade would be a pure hockey trade where two teams try to address needs. Jarry...boy who knows. I will still maintain that the best overall option is for both of them to rebound and play well for us. It's not such an extreme need to trade them that trading them is a better option than them playing well for us.

 

[Andy99]

When should we get nervous about Sid not signing an extension yet?

If the signing is not announced before or at the 7th of August (8/7) I think I'll panic a bit.

If the season starts and he hasn’t signed…will be worried then

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Honestly if Crosby does not sign. I am not worried. If at the deadline we are looking out and not in. Hope he is open to getting us some assets.

Will watch him wherever he goes.