Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: Dull days of August... Oooo! A trade!

[Dipsy Doodle]

Blues never needed to burn anything down, they had a good mix of youth and old and if anything Berube was likely not doing them any favours in his system and how much they were underperforming for what they had on their roster, it was very apparent when Berube was fired where most of that team was struggling and how improved they were without having to make sweeping changes to the roster.

I think the hype for Berube as a coach is kind of funny because of that. They were 1st round exits and then went as far as the 2nd round before the following season they were playing like absolute crap because Berube's system really was just caving them in, Bannister taking basically that same roster and having them just barely miss is a great example of why Berube needed to go asap. I mean quite literally - The Blues didn't trade for anyone last season when Bannister took over, he took over the same roster and put up 30-19-0-5 vs Berube's 13-14-0-1.

Under Berube last season: 13-14-0-1, 79GF, 93GA (-14 differential), 2.82GF/G, 3.32GA/G, 31st ranked PP, 20th ranked PK
Under Bannister last season: 30-19-0-5, 155GF, 155GA (0 differential), 2.87GF/G, 2.87GA/G, 13th ranked PP, 13th ranked PK

They definitely struggled to score but that could also be because their depth scoring was still crap while their better players started to produce more which had them start scoring at a better rate but just barely, but defensively they were better and so was their goaltending benefitting from that.

Thomas, Kyrou, Neighbours, Krug, Saad, Faulk - All improved under Bannister, the slower players didn't really do much better and some of the older players definitely didn't fare well under Bannister as more youth were played instead (must be nice). Hayes, Sunqvist, etc. If you look at who Armstrong brought in it also supports that - Texier, Holloway, and Joseph are all better skaters. Faksa they picked up to replace Hayes in the bottom 6. They added more young players (aged 27, 22, 23, and 24) while adding 2 older veterans like Faksa 30 and Suter 39. Even with adding Suter and his almost 40yr old ass, they're still younger than the Penguins by a decent amount.

So really, sure you might not need to blow it up, but the Blues acted quickly and fired Berube before it was back to back years of missing the playoffs and more damage was done, they hired Bannister who who like Berube before him when he took over a fired coach, was able to turn around the same roster and do a better job. Penguins have let Sullivan stay so long that the problem might not be fixed with just a coaching change, it'll maybe take more because for almost a decade this team has drafted, signed, and traded for "his type of players" and there in a pretty shit spot because of most of that. So the first step would be firing Sullivan to see if a new coach can deprogram them, if that doesn't work then yeah - very big changes.

We were talking about the Blues prior to and during their Cup run, not the following years.

 

[Gurglesons]

Washington unequivocally tanked. They were trying to compete before but they did everything they could to get the #1 pick in 04. Like I know you try to play devil's advocate but come on

For me, tanking is systematically doing everything to suck for a sustained amount of time.

Washington blew up their roster in 04, but within two seasons they were making big signings and big trades.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I wish we'd offer sheet Robertson at 2 mil.

Robertson - Crosby - Rust
Bunting - Malkin - Rakell
McGroaty - Hayes - Glass
DOC - Lizotte - Acciari

Dubas would get huge props from me if he turned over the Hextall roster into that. Lots of high potential youth even if they do have huge gaps in their game.

Probably wouldn't even have to do that. Offer Puustinen and see what happens.

 

[Gurglesons]

Probably wouldn't even have to do that. Offer Puustinen and see what happens.

I don't think the Leafs would willingly trade him to us.

 

[SEALBound]

I also think we need to revise the definition of "tanking", because "finishing with 2 top-5 picks 15 years ago" is not "tanking". I'd argue the definition of tanking is "having multiple years in a short window of terrible seasons resulting in top-5 picks", and the reality is that most teams who have won in recent memory simply do not fall under that criteria. Let's look back at the past cup winners since the Penguins won in 2017:

-Florida: top-5 picks in 2002, 2003, 2010, 2011, 2013 and 2014
-Vegas: no top-5 picks
-Colorado: top-5 picks in 2009, 2011, 2013, 2017 and 2019 (via trade)
-Tampa: top-5 picks in 2008, 2009 and 2013
-Blues: top-5 picks in 2006 and 2008
-Capitals: top-5 picks in 2004, 2006 and 2007

Of these teams, the only teams that I would argue actually did some sort of "tank" and won later was Florida and Washington. Washington's tank obviously got them Backstrom and Ovi while Florida's tank got them Barkov, Ekblad and Huberdeau (who was later turned into Tkachuk). But beyond that, the other teams simply don't follow the same pattern. Sure, they may have gotten high picks, but it was random one-off years. I think the Avs are a good example of this, their seasons yoyoed in terms of point finishes in their 2008-2018 window:

There is no "tanking" window in this entire 10 year period. It's 4 bad years, with one horrendously bad year, that are just sprinkled in a 10 year span of them being a borderline playoff team. They won in major part because of the picks they made in this window with Duchene, Landeskog, MacKinnon and Makar, but they didn't "tank" for those guys. They just got really, really lucky by just happening to be terrible in the years to get those guys. The Avs are a great example of a bubble team who just happened to suck in the right years to turn into a future cup winner.

I said this a couple pages ago - you have to suck at the right time and get lucky. Sometimes your 1st ov is MAF, Ovi, Sid and sometimes it's Hall, RNH, Yakupov. The only time it truly makes sense to "try to tank" is when there's a generational talent up for grabs like 04/05/15/16/23. Next one up is Gavin McKenna in 2026. The best bet is to be flat-out terrible and finish 32nd, but you can get lucky like Edmonton did in 2015 and move up. Counter to that is sometimes you end up like Buffalo and get Eichel, Winnipeg and Laine, etc when it's a good player but you're not getting Malkin at 2OV. I think most teams that are good now have shown that if you want to go the tank route, you better settle in for the long haul and be bad and get top 5 picks for several years. I don't see FSG necessarily wanting that.

I believe FSG expressed not tanking and building through many outlets, trade, waivers and UFA. Their drafting could be very underwhelming being drafting nothing but pawns, knights and bishops, and never landing a corner stone anchoring piece where they are just the land of good but not ever great enough to contend seriously again for decades. Look at Detroit, they are already over a decade of being what this team is going to be doing and they are no closer to being a threat to winning a cup anytime soon. They have signed a couple UFA's in Kane and Tarasenko, and they look like this...

Debrincat, Larkin, Raymond
Tarasenko, Compher, Kane
Rasmussen, Copp, Berggren
Motte, Veleno, Fischer

Chiarot, Seider
Edvinsson, Petry
Maatta, Gustafsson

Talbot, Husso, Lyon

It's an okay roster, but not to be confused with a serious contender, and this is basically what I foresee this team doing moving forward. A bunch okay stars but no center iconic super star to build a team around.

Since losing in the 2009 finals they have...

- lost in the 2nd round 3 times
- lost in the 1st round 4 times
- missed the playoffs the last 8 seasons

Drafting...

2010 - 1st 21 OA - Sheahan / 2nd 51 OA Jarnkrok / 5th 141 OA Mrazek
2011 - 2nd 35 OA - Jurco / 2nd 48 OA Ouellet
2012 - 2nd 49 OA Martin Frk / 4th 110 OA Athanasiou
2013 - 1st 20 OA Mantha / 2nd 58 OA Betuzzi / 3rd 79 OA Janmark
2014 - 1st 15 OA Larkin
2015 - 1st 19 OA Svechnikov
2916 - 2nd 53 OA Hronek
2017 - 1st 9 OA Rasmussen
2018 - 1st 6 OA Zadina / 1st 30 OA Veleno / 2nd 33 OA Berggren
2019 - 1st 6 OA Seider
2020 - 1st 4 OA Raymond
2021 - 1st 6 OA Edvinsson
From here who's to say whom sticks
2022 - 1st 8 OA Kasper / They had 2 - 2nd picks
2023 - 1st 9 OA Danielson / 1st 17 OA Sandin-Pellika / They had 3 - 2nd picks
2024 - 1st - 15 OA Brandsegg-Nygard

In all that time losing in the 1st round and not making the playoffs the last 8 seasons they have not landed a generational team altering talent in 14 years.

The Wings are the cautionary tale about draft purgatory.

I don't think we are going there though. I think one Sid and Geno and possibly Letang are done, they send off all of the extras and accumulate picks and prospects while finishing bottom 3.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I don't think the Leafs would willingly trade him to us.

Maybe not.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don't think the Leafs would willingly trade him to us.

I don't know why not, if the Pens offered the best package. Especially since we're not in the same division, so there's not even the "he'll come back to haunt us 6 times a year" thing.

I don't think it's good business to be butthurt because Dubas left and turn down a superior offer just to accept an inferior one.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't know why not, if the Pens offered the best package. Especially since we're not in the same division, so there's not even the "he'll come back to haunt us 6 times a year" thing.

I don't think it's good business to be butthurt because Dubas left and turn down a superior offer just to accept an inferior one.

I agree, but yeah, it's the Leafs.

 

[SEALBound]

I would gladly add Robertson but honestly, there's just no room for him on the roster. Unless Toronto wants Glass? Acciari? Eller? But if they had the cap room for either of them, they would just resign Robertson.

I think Robertson is the guy you get back in a trade at the TDL for an upgrade in the top 6. Say Rakell was a UFA. Robertson + 3rd for Rakell @ 75% (as a rental). If he hadn't added Hayes, Glass, Lizotte, Beauvillier...

 

[Gurglesons]

I would gladly add Robertson but honestly, there's just no room for him on the roster. Unless Toronto wants Glass? Acciari? Eller? But if they had the cap room for either of them, they would just resign Robertson.

I think Robertson is the guy you get back in a trade at the TDL for an upgrade in the top 6. Say Rakell was a UFA. Robertson + 3rd for Rakell @ 75% (as a rental). If he hadn't added Hayes, Glass, Lizotte, Beauvillier...

We need a top six LW.

 

[PensandCaps]

"Why wouldn't you?" is a better question. Their value is in a good place and the Pens need picks way more than standings points this year.
Also in Rust's case, you can use the 20.5M he'd leave behind to generate even more picks.

If the return will be better at the deadline then sure, wait. If not, pull that trigger.

Let's suck first in season, then trade them for nothing. Odd thing to just give up considering the moves this team made with Dubas last year. You seem discombobulated if you scrap on your ideas already if you're Dubas. You still have EK, Crosby and Malkin. You're not totally hopeless on constructing a competitive team.

 

[Pancakes]

I get what @Empoleon8771 is saying and what you're saying, I mean to address Empo, if Sullivan isn't fired until the final year of his contract, then yeah the only option at that point is to severely tank to make up for what Sullivan ruined and that's probably the only way to fix how badly he's f***ed this team up and there's no way anyone can pretend that isn't the case with what he's done and how his usage of this roster for years is why this team is where it is.

IF the Penguins somehow grow a sack and fire Sullivan this next season when its the same shit yet again and this time Dubas wakes up from his post Recess Kindergarten Nap fires his ass - To address AB - I don't think Dubas needs to tank at all because then you can see what a new coach can do and also if it's not working out with the interim coach before the TDL, you start selling and get as many picks as you can and you definitely go into hard sell mode - Karlsson, Pettersson, Rust, Rakell, Jarry, Ned, literally anyone that is worthwhile to dump (No point in moving Malkin since he's almost done, Letang is unmovable, Crosby you never move unless he ok's it). You can even dangle Pickering to pick up a better prospect if need be, everything is on the table in terms of who's in play except for Sid, Geno, Letang for obvious reasons. Penguins then can use picks to move up in the draft if they see a can't miss in the top 10 or top 5 as some teams will see getting an extra 1st and moving down with another 1st worth it, it's always a go to move for GM's.

I can't see them firing Sullivan at all now that they've decided to undergo a soft rebuild. Sullivan seems insulated from criticism in every way. If the Penguins suck this year, then the media and Dubas will both say that you can't blame Sullivan because he wasn't given a playoff capable roster. Everyone knows the Pens did nothing this off season and haven't fully committed to building a playoff capable team.

And obviously if they somehow exceed expectations and make the playoffs or get close to it then everyone will be singing Sully's praises and how he coached masterfully in a tough situation.

Maybe Sullivan could get fired if the Pens are embarrassingly bad and Sid looks unhappy but even then I just dunno. It'd have to get ugly optically for FSG to want to do that I think.

It'd be different if this team actually had expectations to do well but now that it doesn't it feels like there's no way Sully doesn't get to play out his contract.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

It was pretty clear that it was Sullivan's job until he didn't want it anymore from the moment they re-signed him, two years early, after this team's fourth straight 1st round exit*.

*I still think losing to Montreal was a playoff miss, but whatever.

I'm hoping Sullivan's ego makes him feel like he's too good to coach a rebuilding team and he jets when Sid retires.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

*I still think losing to Montreal was a playoff miss, but whatever.

Nah they were 7th in league standings before shutdown. I think it’s fair to say that year counts for streak

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

We need a top six LW.

Certainly an opening there, but I'm okay with trying out the internal options unless a real bargain presents itself.

 

[Pancakes]

Nah they were 7th in league standings before shutdown. I think it’s fair to say that year counts for streak

They were but weren't they on a pretty awful slide? Maybe they would have stopped losing and righted the ship and made it anyways but iirc it wasn't looking good when the season stopped.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

They were but weren't they on a pretty awful slide? Maybe they would have stopped losing and righted the ship and made it anyways but iirc it wasn't looking good when the season stopped.

They had kinda stabilized again and won 3 of 5 after a skid. I think if you google the standings it’s a stretch to say they would’ve missed.

 

[wheelz87]

They had kinda stabilized again and won 3 of 5 after a skid. I think if you google the standings it’s a stretch to say they would’ve missed.

Its so odd when people try to minimize the team's accomplishments. Like we were firmly in the playoffs when the world shut down. Yea - its more than legit we made the playoffs that year.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'm hoping Sullivan's ego makes him feel like he's too good to coach a rebuilding team and he jets when Sid retires.

I wish Sullivan viewed this current team as more "about to rebuild" and his ego told him to GTFO right this moment before he suffers a third straight missed playoffs on his resume.

 

[Ulf5]

I wish we'd offer sheet Robertson at 2 mil.

Robertson - Crosby - Rust
Bunting - Malkin - Rakell
McGroaty - Hayes - Glass
DOC - Lizotte - Acciari

Dubas would get huge props from me if he turned over the Hextall roster into that. Lots of high potential youth even if they do have huge gaps in their game.

With you on that but most Leaf fans seem to think offers under the $3.9? mark, get matched.

 

[Gurglesons]

With you on that but most Leaf fans seem to think offers under the $3.9? mark, get matched.

I’d be shocked if they matched 2 mil. They’d have to actively make roster moves if the Hakaanpa contract is happening then for a guy I don’t think wants to be there.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I can't see them firing Sullivan at all now that they've decided to undergo a soft rebuild. Sullivan seems insulated from criticism in every way. If the Penguins suck this year, then the media and Dubas will both say that you can't blame Sullivan because he wasn't given a playoff capable roster. Everyone knows the Pens did nothing this off season and haven't fully committed to building a playoff capable team.

And obviously if they somehow exceed expectations and make the playoffs or get close to it then everyone will be singing Sully's praises and how he coached masterfully in a tough situation.

Maybe Sullivan could get fired if the Pens are embarrassingly bad and Sid looks unhappy but even then I just dunno. It'd have to get ugly optically for FSG to want to do that I think.

It'd be different if this team actually had expectations to do well but now that it doesn't it feels like there's no way Sully doesn't get to play out his contract.

Mate I need to hope for it, I need it at this point. I don't want it, I f***ing NEED to have that hope in them doing it. As a coach he's so far gone at fixing anything or progressing into changing his system just enough to make it work again. I think in the first month if the powerplay is still ass, the team is still underperforming, I think the look of a dejected Crosby realizing this will be his 3rd straight year without a playoffs will force Dubas' hand. Because there won't be a massive trade or a series of trades, this isn't 2015 where the Penguins made the playoffs and were out in the 1st round and are potentially trending towards not being in the playoffs again, this is already a non-playoff team that is looking at a third year of no playoffs.

We talk about honouring the legacy of Crosby and Malkin, yes Malkin too because some of you seem to love not recognizing him as deserving the same f***ing courtesy that Crosby gets in deserving more from this team.

But how are they honouring either player by already doing the worst to them in their entire careers? They have never missed the playoffs consecutively in their entire Penguins career and have missed twice and look at a potential third. Then you lot want Crosby to get whatever he wants so he could stay and keep doing this? Keep blaming Dubas for not getting enough players when we did have better players than some of the teams that made the playoffs and still looked like shit?

We were talking about the Blues prior to and during their Cup run, not the following years.

Prior to the year they went on their run, they were a pretty good team already, just underperforming at times (they hadn't missed the playoffs in a long time and when Yeo did miss, he barely missed and the team needed changes) and under Hitchcock were a pretty damn good team for years, then they looked like they were going to miss the playoffs and fired Hitchcock and hired Yeo who then had them do ok enough and make it to the 2nd round, but in his first full year he got them miss by 1pt, they were 94pts and Avs were 95pts, they were close. But that off season after that year, they made some pretty decent changes and started to push more youth, Yeo went 7-9 in the first 19 games and I think had they had patience maybe they play better given they just added ROR and were trying to figure a few things out but they fired him for Berube, Armstrong identifying that the team was capable of more with what they had and had already made a pretty significant amount of moves in the off-season (traded for ROR, made room for youth by moving out Berglund, Sabotka left, Perron came back, Elliott left as Allen had supplanted him and Binnington was now promoted to back-up, Schwartz, Dunn etc all took steps forward etc I already mentioned this) had him fire the coach instead of making another trade is why they did well that season knowing how they weren't responding - THIS is where Dubas' mindset 100% needs to be at right now. That he's done what he can with the roster to be better and the coach is still not getting results.

It's funny, the Penguins identified the same thing with Mike Johnston but now refuse to with Mike Sullivan.

Penguins have already made so many moves and when you look at it with a giant step back you see the GM's making moves like they know they can't do the one thing they want to do and have to keep making changes in hopes the coach just figures it out. They got Matheson to be faster, Sullivan really didn't understand how to use him, so they got Petry and he produced the same as Matheson on the Penguins and nothing changed there, they then got Karlsson and Sullivan and his brilliant mind decided he wanted to adjust HIS GAME to suit HIS SYSTEM more, absolutely ridiculous. He then misused multiple players, didn't play to most of these players strengths that they were good at with other teams, didn't want to use any youth for much more than 2 games or so if they were even lucky to get that and even then, they got some insanely restricted minutes and usage that wouldn't give you any read on what they can do for the team because they were given warm body minutes not make an impact minutes.

If the Penguins followed the path the Blues did or even the Oilers, they would have fired Sullivan after the November 24th game when they were 9-10 and looked like nothing was going to change in the way they were being coached and how players were being used.

Even if you look at the first 28 games last season, he was worse than what got MJ fired in his first 28 games with Sullivan being 13-12-0-3 with a 513 win% - It's so shitty being a fan of this team knowing they want to hold players accountable for their results but then won't hold the coach accountable. I am still livid at the shit hurled at Malkin last season and yet Sullivan being the biggest reason why any of this looks bad, doesn't get an ounce of criticism remotely close to what Karlsson and Malkin were getting.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I’d be shocked if they matched 2 mil. They’d have to actively make roster moves if the Hakaanpa contract is happening then for a guy I don’t think wants to be there.

I'm still on the train of thought where I move Drew O'Connor, Noel Acciari + Pens 4th for Nick Robertson and then sign Robertson to a 2yr deal at 2.75m/yr - I'm not sure if there's a # they have to hit for his salary as he's an RFA and I know there are some rules about that which I always forget or can't find.

But I would definitely pull that trigger. Acciari is a cap move in that deal but also a veteran add and someone they are familiar with and I think Acciari would waive for Toronto anyway. Leafs still get a fairly decent player in DOC that can line up on either side.

Bunting, Crosby, Rust
McGroarty, Malkin, Rakell
Robertson, Hayes, Puustinen
Beauvilier/Lizotte, Eller, Glass

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm still on the train of thought where I move Drew O'Connor, Noel Acciari + Pens 4th for Nick Robertson and then sign Robertson to a 2yr deal at 2.75m/yr - I'm not sure if there's a # they have to hit for his salary as he's an RFA and I know there are some rules about that which I always forget or can't find.

But I would definitely pull that trigger. Acciari is a cap move in that deal but also a veteran add and someone they are familiar with and I think Acciari would waive for Toronto anyway. Leafs still get a fairly decent player in DOC that can line up on either side.

Why are we trading DOC for Robertson when we can offer sheet him?

Just dump Acciari on waivers.

 

[SomeDude]

I'm not particularly interested in Robertson but the idea of Dubas offer sheeting a Leafs player would be amazing just so their fanbase explodes.