Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: Dull days of August... Oooo! A trade!

[Randy Butternubs]

I want him gone to. Huge Return!

That's weird.

 

[66-30-33]

Already considering Sid's exit eh? lol

I want him gone to. Huge Return!

Naw, just responding to others talking about him. I bet he stays here.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

The Sharks did not pick a lane. They were the 4th worst team in the league in '22-'23 and did not have near the same talent the Pens have. Their lane was picked for them.

The situations are not analogous, and not recognizing that is half the problem for the burn it down crowd.

There is nothing about this situation that justifies the course they've taken.
They're not good enough to win, but are choosing to hang around anyway, directly hurting the growth of what's most important.

They're setting themselves up for either a 1st round exit or a 10th place finish or w/e.
Keep supporting that then, if that's what you're into. Keep pretending this is ok.

 

[Tom Hanks]

There is nothing about this situation that justifies the course they've taken.
They're not good enough to win, but are choosing to hang around anyway, directly hurting the growth of what's most important.

They're setting themselves up for either a 1st round exit or a 10th place finish or w/e.
Keep supporting that then, if that's what you're into. Keep pretending this is ok.

We would have picked 14th last draft and this season we’ve lost by far our best winger and our top 4 players are 37, 36, 36 & 33 years old so their decline could be anywhere from a lot to a little.

Our acquisitions are maybe better bottom 6 forwards and a prospect who could be NHL ready.

We could be picking in the top 5 next draft. No point trading our best players (they have NMC’s anyway) and creating drama that could hurt the brand/profits when we could end up sucking anyway and getting a top pick.

There’s no need to do much right now unless we are trading for good young talent.

 

[mouser]

@mouser help please?

edit: I'm seeing 1.25% in the CBA but my math ain't mathin'

The CBA says LIBOR + 1.25%, but LIBOR has been replaced by SOFR, which the NHL is likely using. Current SOFR+1.25% is somewhere around 6.5% annually.

 

[Ugene Magic]

We would have picked 14th last draft and this season we’ve lost by far our best winger and our top 4 players are 37, 36, 36 & 33 years old so their decline could be anywhere from a lot to a little.

Our acquisitions are maybe better bottom 6 forwards and a prospect who could be NHL ready.

We could be picking in the top 5 next draft. No point trading our best players (they have NMC’s anyway) and creating drama that could hurt the brand/profits when we could end up sucking anyway and getting a top pick.

There’s no need to do much right now unless we are trading for good young talent.

He's just worried about the next possible generational talent passing him bye and all the possible cups he's going to be missing out on. Because, he thinks it's the norm for the Pens.

I just wonder how young he is? Crosby's first set of B2B's or the 2nd set of B2B's old?

He has said he wants to see more, and he is not as lucky as us seeing the Mario years. Little does he know, not every fan has got to see their team win one let alone five.

Basically in short, he's in a hurry.

 

[Pancakes]

There is nothing about this situation that justifies the course they've taken.
They're not good enough to win, but are choosing to hang around anyway, directly hurting the growth of what's most important.

They're setting themselves up for either a 1st round exit or a 10th place finish or w/e.
Keep supporting that then, if that's what you're into. Keep pretending this is ok.

I mean I'm pretty ok with it. We won three cups. If we're mid for a while whatever.

Tanking is not a guarantee of success. Hasn't worked out so well for Buffalo, Ottawa, Detroit.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

There is nothing about this situation that justifies the course they've taken.
They're not good enough to win, but are choosing to hang around anyway, directly hurting the growth of what's most important.

They're setting themselves up for either a 1st round exit or a 10th place finish or w/e.
Keep supporting that then, if that's what you're into. Keep pretending this is ok.

You're comparing franchises in completely different circumstances and acting as though the path the Sharks took was the obvious path for the Pens. It wasn't, and it has been clearly explained to you why.

I'm usually all about the tank, but its not the move for an org with a core like the Pens' performing at the level they're at. You strip the meat from that bone.

 

[Jacob]

Anyone remember Oliwa? I just reminded myself of when Tibbetts got traded and left threatening voicemails on Meloche’s phone, and Oliwa beat him up in the next game and afterwards said to the PG or Trib; “it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.” That quote was sort of a meme on the official forums for a while after that.

 

[BusinessGoose]

Oliwa was like our knockoff Chara

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Anyone remember Oliwa? I just reminded myself of when Tibbetts got traded and left threatening voicemails on Meloche’s phone, and Oliwa beat him up in the next game and afterwards said to the PG or Trib; “it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.” That quote was sort of a meme on the official forums for a while after that.

I think its more comical that Billy Tibbetts is someone Mario advocated for, a statutory rapist and all around f***ing douche. Weird times.

Also this is fun to watch.



Kryzsztof Oliwa was a monster. Oliwa really didn't like him and I like Oliwa more for it.

​

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Stupid age restriction for hockey fights...so I made a gif of the best part.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

You're comparing franchises in completely different circumstances and acting as though the path the Sharks took was the obvious path for the Pens. It wasn't, and it has been clearly explained to you why.

I'm usually all about the tank, but its not the move for an org with a core like the Pens' performing at the level they're at. You strip the meat from that bone.

When it's obvious the window is closed (it is and has been for years already) you aggressively move on to reconstructing the team until you're in contention again.
It's a long, unpleasant process, but there's no reason to wait when you know you're toast.
Yeah it was clearer for the Sharks, granted. But who the hell actually believes that this team can go through 4 top teams in the playoffs? Nobody. The entire hockey world is pretty clear on where the Pens are at. Even this board is in consensus that no more Cups are happening with this core.

You just witnessed the Pens missing in back-to-back years with Sid and Malkin playing all 164 games. The PP was 31st with both of them on it the entire time. PP1 was nearly as bad the year before that.
Their power over outcomes isn't that strong. They are not #1 D-men or goalies. Odds are that they both get worse this year too. They're old, and Guentzel is gone too.

We would have picked 14th last draft and this season

Yes, and that wasn't okay either. They needed to scrap this whole project in summer 2022, before those 4 contracts were handed out. They'd already be well on their way to building a new foundation.
Instead they're gearing up for a 3rd pretender year, while making minor additions to the prospect pool.

We could be picking in the top 5 next draft. No point trading our best players (they have NMC’s anyway) and creating drama that could hurt the brand/profits when we could end up sucking anyway and getting a top pick.

Possible, but unlikely. Why is the organization gambling on that when prospects should be the #1 priority? Just make it a lock. Secure your future building blocks. Get serious.

We'll see if there's no penalty for taking this course. If Sid gets re-signed they are likely committing 40 million to him over 4 years...a ginormous amount of cap you could use to generate prospects with. Close to half an annual team's cap.
They may get bit for waiting with Petts. He may suck this year or get hurt. His value is strong right now. Another dice roll when you're already in a strong position in terms of his value. He just had 2 solid seasons and is healthy.
Why is Rakell still here? They don't need him for anything, but they do need his 20 mil for the future. Just off-load him with a sweetener, if that's what's required. Then use all that money to get that asset back and more. Easily accomplished.
Karlsson should definitely go at 50% retained soon. The longer you wait, the higher odds he declines and his value with it. He's 34. When does the skating fall off?
A serious injury may happen too. He plays a ton. More dice rolling with potential key future assets. He can bring back a 1st.

Hurt feelings and drama is part of serious management in this league. If you prioritize everyone's feelings all the time, you don't win Cups.
We've seen the price for loyalty to Sullivan and Reirden just recently. Loyalty to the core just caused the Pens to progress very little over the last 2 years.

I mean I'm pretty ok with it. We won three cups. If we're mid for a while whatever.

Tanking is not a guarantee of success. Hasn't worked out so well for Buffalo, Ottawa, Detroit.

No, but this path is a guaranteed waste of precious cap space and time for the organization. We already lost 2 years for no reason, and there's more to come.
I'm fine with my team being mid to bad, if it's a required part of the process to getting back to the top. That's not what's happening here though. They are actively choosing to do much less than they can to help the future.

 

[Lust for Life]

Keep supporting that then, if that's what you're into. Keep pretending this is ok.

What's the option? We, as people on the Internet who know nothing, can't change shit. Either support the team or don't.

 

[Andy99]

Did anyone ask Geno who was going to be worse this season: Steelers or Penguins?

https://x.com/i/web/status/1832176564018024709

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

When it's obvious the window is closed (it is and has been for years already) you aggressively move on to reconstructing the team until you're in contention again.
It's a long, unpleasant process, but there's no reason to wait when you know you're toast.
Yeah it was clearer for the Sharks, granted. But who the hell actually believes that this team can go through 4 top teams in the playoffs? Nobody. The entire hockey world is pretty clear on where the Pens are at. Even this board is in consensus that no more Cups are happening with this core.

You just witnessed the Pens missing in back-to-back years with Sid and Malkin playing all 164 games. The PP was 31st with both of them on it the entire time. PP1 was nearly as bad the year before that.
Their power over outcomes isn't that strong. They are not #1 D-men or goalies. Odds are that they both get worse this year too. They're old, and Guentzel is gone too.

The "entire hockey world" was pretty clear where the Pens were at in 2015 too. Good thing they didn't blow it up then, although I'm sure the present advocates would have been front and center talking about how hopeless it was. The Kings surprised a few people as an 8 seed not too long ago too.

Crosby is still considered a top 5 center by players and execs. How many teams can you name with a player of that calibre, who finished just outside the playoffs the year before, who blew everything up? None, I'd wager. Because you build around those players, not tear down. The obvious fact you're ignoring is that we won't likely have another top 5 player at their position for the next decade plus no matter how we proceed. Kind of need those to win.

You're acting as though hockey is a zero sum game - contender or bust. It's not.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Did anyone ask Geno who was going to be worse this season: Steelers or Penguins?

https://x.com/i/web/status/1832176564018024709

Are we sure the Malkin family aren't Tom Brady fans? That football looks a little deflated.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Did anyone ask Geno who was going to be worse this season: Steelers or Penguins?

https://x.com/i/web/status/1832176564018024709

Geno just knows that mediocrity from either coach is the standard.

The "entire hockey world" was pretty clear where the Pens were at in 2015 too. Good thing they didn't blow it up then, although I'm sure the present advocates would have been front and center talking about how hopeless it was. The Kings surprised a few people as an 8 seed not too long ago too.

Crosby is still considered a top 5 center by players and execs. How many teams can you name with a player of that calibre, who finished just outside the playoffs the year before, who blew everything up? None, I'd wager. Because you build around those players, not tear down. The obvious fact you're ignoring is that we won't likely have another top 5 player at their position for the next decade plus no matter how we proceed. Kind of need those to win.

You're acting as though hockey is a zero sum game - contender or bust. It's not.

That's a lot of hope for a team coached by Mike Sullivan and knowing what we know now and the last 7 seasons.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I mean I'm pretty ok with it. We won three cups. If we're mid for a while whatever.

Tanking is not a guarantee of success. Hasn't worked out so well for Buffalo, Ottawa, Detroit.

I think our fanbase is spoiled by being lucky enough to "suck" when generational talents were available. So they think that all you have to do is tank and rebuild and it will result in multiple Cups.

Take Lemieux/Jagr and Crosby/Malkin out of those Pens teams and replace them with a more typical "1st overall" pick and see what those teams do. Pens still dominant in the 90's if it was Pierre Turgeon and Keith Primeau in place of Lemieux and Jagr? Do the Pens still win 3 Cups in the past 15 years if you replace Sid/Geno with, say, Tavares and Seguin?

It's not just that the Pens sucked and built through those picks, it's WHO those picks were.

 

[SomeDude]

Kryzsztof Oliwa was a monster.

Quite literally.

Dude beat the crap out of his girlfriend apparently using a hockey stick as a weapon in the assault. After that he was also on the run with warrants for fraud and some other stuff. Then he was removed from a coaching position from Polish National Team after players complained he was beating some of them up. He was still allowed to own/manage/and coach a junior team in the USPHL that unsurprisingly folded mid-season in 2018.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Quite literally.

Dude beat the crap out of his girlfriend apparently using a hockey stick as a weapon in the assault. After that he was also on the run with warrants for fraud and some other stuff. Then he was removed from a coaching position from Polish National Team after players complained he was beating some of them up. He was still allowed to own/manage/and coach a junior team in the USPHL that unsurprisingly folded mid-season in 2018.

A monster and a piece of shit.

I'm always so let down by how many of these tossers turn out to be dick heads.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I think our fanbase is spoiled by being lucky enough to "suck" when generational talents were available. So they think that all you have to do is tank and rebuild and it will result in multiple Cups.

Take Lemieux/Jagr and Crosby/Malkin out of those Pens teams and replace them with a more typical "1st overall" pick and see what those teams do. Pens still dominant in the 90's if it was Pierre Turgeon and Keith Primeau in place of Lemieux and Jagr? Do the Pens still win 3 Cups in the past 15 years if you replace Sid/Geno with, say, Tavares and Seguin?

It's not just that the Pens sucked and built through those picks, it's WHO those picks were.

I mean the same can be said about the Hawks with Kane and Toews and now getting Bedard, the Oilers quite literally tanked for multiple top players only to squander the shit out of them.

So also a great example of you can draft these top players but it doesn't automatically mean cups because right now McWetshisbed and Drai are nearing 30 and just recently made the finals basically on a lucky run. But they had Eberle, Hall, RNH etc and did jack shit with them.

Pens got Sid and Geno but also lucked out with hiring Shero and then getting Disco. Because as much as we despise Disco, a very rookie coach at the time, he created this dominance in the Pens where even if the top players were hurt or they had shit depth, he still churned out insane results. Just not enough playoff success. That paved the way for some of this "arrogance" if you will. Sullivan's current reign is more of a good study of ignorance.

Shero was quite shrewd and savvy at the right time when the Pens needed someone like that. Had they hired someone else, we likely don't see a cup that early.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I mean the same can be said about the Hawks with Kane and Toews and now getting Bedard, the Oilers quite literally tanked for multiple top players only to squander the shit out of them.

So also a great example of you can draft these top players but it doesn't automatically mean cups because right now McWetshisbed and Drai are nearing 30 and just recently made the finals basically on a lucky run. But they had Eberle, Hall, RNH etc and did jack shit with them.

Pens got Sid and Geno but also lucked out with hiring Shero and then getting Disco. Because as much as we despise Disco, a very rookie coach at the time, he created this dominance in the Pens where even if the top players were hurt or they had shit depth, he still churned out insane results. Just not enough playoff success. That paved the way for some of this "arrogance" if you will. Sullivan's current reign is more of a good study of ignorance.

Shero was quite shrewd and savvy at the right time when the Pens needed someone like that. Had they hired someone else, we likely don't see a cup that early.

That's my overall point. It's not just as simple as "sell everything off and tank and you end up with Cups". We've been spoiled with our situation and some folks seem to think that's what will happen again as soon as we move on from Sid and Geno and start the rebuild.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

That's my overall point. It's not just as simple as "sell everything off and tank and you end up with Cups". We've been spoiled with our situation and some folks seem to think that's what will happen again as soon as we move on from Sid and Geno and start the rebuild.

Yeah it's definitely not something to hope for happening and it's why keeping Sullivan really irks me because at this stage a new coach with fresh ideas is what this team needs and Dubas to keep making moves to get younger and stockpile picks and even reclamation prospects that need a change, because you aren't guaranteed a top pick and even then you aren't guaranteed they will be who you need them to be so the more chances you give the team with picks and these prospects, the better you can build a new foundation.

Sullivan is the antithesis of a building anything coach because of his proclivity to veterans and not youth in advantageous ways.

I wouldn't trust Sullivan to coach a highschool team at this point.

 

[Factorial]

That's my overall point. It's not just as simple as "sell everything off and tank and you end up with Cups". We've been spoiled with our situation and some folks seem to think that's what will happen again as soon as we move on from Sid and Geno and start the rebuild.

And it's obvious that this tanking isn't going to happen anytime soon yet the topic dominates this thread because a single poster can't accept it.