Post-Game Talk: Pens @ Rangers 4/8/21

[Chimpradamus]

What I find so maddening in itself is an ancient problem that is apparently unteachable to some hockey players: don't only look at the goddamn puck. You have to be aware where the players are as well. It takes fractions of a second to take a quick glance in another direction to update your awareness.

I'll take this goal as an example. Watch Trouba in the defensive zone. He NEVER looks away from the puck and he's very far from alone in that. As a result, he's caught completely flat footed when Zucker scores. I realize the game is ridiculously fast now, but still, is there not even like 0,2 seconds you can spare to swivel your head just a little bit? I know it's not the best of examples of goals that could've been prevented, but still... the awareness just dies at one point. Zucker passing by comes as a complete surprise it looks like.

 

[Ola]

I’m not a coach but it might be time to break up that top line

I know it would mean having to play Lafreniere more *gasp* but come on Quinn this shouldn’t be this hard lol

Yeah we have big issues here and aren't doing the right things to solve them.

1. Zibanejad is not a good match-up center against these lines. Marchand-Bergeron-Pasternak, Guentzel-Crosby-Rust, and other top lines like that around us. All our guys are 6'2-3 (Kreider/Ziba/Buch). They are all under 6'1. The players types they have, they are simply quicker to turn the play, they close down on you faster when you lose the puck. It tilts the scale. Ziba's line was destroyed last season against Boston, I haven't checked this year.

We are talking about that size is needed at center ice, but I definitely believes that its a thing of the past. It is the combination of speed and being strong on the puck that is lethal.

2. Panarin is a fantastic counter against these top lines. But Strome is not. Neither is Chytil. In theory, we might counter this with speed and skill on the blueline. Get the puck deep offensively and take advantage of our size there. Thing is, these teams can still be really strong physically on defense. Our size up front don't pay off against them. Tampa is an extreme example, but they can like have 11 forwards under 6'1 and then 5 Ds at 6'3 or more.

3. How do we fix this? From my POV, it is going to be really hard to work around this -- structural -- problem. We are not going to trade for that center that can counter guys like Barzal, Crosby, Boston's top line (Bergeron himself might not fit the bill superwell anymore, but OTOH nobody fits this bill better than Marchand so that makes up for Bergeron's lack of agility and quickness). We are not going to sign this center as a UFA. They are very rare to start with, and nobody is going to trade us a Seb Aho or someone like that. Eichel? Few fits this bill as bad as he does... Unless its a strict Ziba replacement, we shouldn't look at him IMHO.

I get the arguments against it, and everything else equal its not something you would consider. But I am getting more and more convinced that we should start the work to move Lafreniere to center with Panarin.

4. Look, we have an issue structurally here. We play some games under DQ that we could play 20 times over and never win. I've mentioned the last three games against Philly last season before, we lost like 5-0, 5-2 and 5-3. The way those games were played, it would have taken a mircle to walk away with pts. Something needs to be done.

But -- the solution DQ has gone for, trying to steer us much more into just moving the puck up ice ASAP and dump it in, I do not buy that for one second. This is what cost us pts against Buffalo and its what cost us pts against Pittsburgh. It serves no purpose. Sure it is speculation, but I bet my right arm that the players will be very frustrated by this approach. We are not the Islanders and we aren't built to play like them. And even if we were, the marginals can be really thin for them too. Look at how they always tackle off during seasons. Start strong and starts to struggle towards the end. To 'half-arsed' play their style is basically to do a walk-over. It is not good enough for a NHL coach. We must have a coach that does better than this.

 

[chosen]

We can literally have Gerard Gallant. Like, tonight.

So can lots of other teams, yet....

 

[Avery16]

I don't care that it was penalized or that he's Sidney Crosby. When a player takes a blindside run at your starting goaltender, one who was recently injured to boot, that player has to be made accountable. Someone should have challenged Sid or should have taken a run at him.

Smith was fine with putting us down a player and a goal to settle his meaningless score with Lafferty. You have to send a message that you will pay a price when you purposefully run our goalie.

 

[chosen]

Betcha bottom dollar DiGiuseppe in for Kravstov also. Quinn can't help himself.

I'll take the bet.

 

[chosen]

Inconsistency is fine. What’s not fine is poor effort. When the kids have a shit game you can understand. But Zibby, Kreids, trouba, panarin, etc all we’re terrible. With shitty efforts to boot. Zibby and Chytil missing wide open nets was a signal this game was gonna be in the toilet. Smith at least fought. Shesty was not sharp. He kept the game at 3-1 lone enough to try and mount a comeback. I don’t care if we lose. I do when it looks like playing the game is an inconvenience for multi millionaire players. When we lost to the capitals at least you saw effort.

When Panarin is part of bitching, I can only shake my head.

 

[chosen]

They should explore whether or not Kreider is willing to waive while he still has some value.

Also move Zibanejad before his contract runs out.

I know the team doesn't want to go scorched earth, but they're honestly not helping us that much anyway at this point.

Jumping off the Good Ship Kreider.

 

[jay from jersey]

When Panarin is part of bitching, I can only shake my head.

And 80-90% percent his effort is unquestioned. But this was one of those times where he wasn’t very good. No care for the puck,flinging it all over the ice and creating a bunch of turnovers. He’s not perfect. He’s not god. No one expects him to be. But when he is off, others should pick him up by playing well. He’s bailed everyone else out enough

When Panarin is part of bitching, I can only shake my head.

 

[chosen]

We have straight up too many wingers. Six top-9 spots. Panarin, Lafreniere, Kakko, Kravtosv, Buchnevich, and you're probably stuck with Kreider. That's six right there with two quality players on your third line.

It's even worse on defense. Fox, Lindgren, and Lundkvist are probably in your top 4 long-term. You're stuck with Trouba on top of that. All of Miller, Robertson, Jones, and Reunanen are going for one spot. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having a quality third pair, but you have to think we end up with at least one guy who's top-4 and will never get a chance yet, or -if things really go well- a young NHL defenseman just sitting in the press box. Plus, honestly, Trouba and a whatever free agent is fine as a third pair.

The center situation is absolutely dire. Zibanejad should not get another contract from this team. Strome's next contract is probably going to be more than he's worth. I'm not saying don't, but it's something to think about. Chytil is Chytil. And that's it. That's all you can bank on as far as guys who will be NHL centers.

Not only does a trade make sense, but we're almost forced to, or we'll be doing this for a long time wasting the prime years of our young wingers and D.

I appreciate the patience the team has shown and I understand why, but it's time to shit or get off the pot. By next deadline they need to decide who they're going to battle with and start making moves towards a contender in 22-23. Maybe not a Cup contender, per se, just yet but a team that's supposed to get to the playoffs and take it seriously.

Glad to hear that you've come around to griping about managent, even if I disagree. They never expected Kakko and Laf to drop into their laps and they had no choice but to take them. The glut on wings couldn't have been avoided. The key is how management handles it before next season.

 

[leetch99]

I usually hate the whole "take out the games where they scored" takes because...well, they f***ing scored, but Kreider has been a 4th liner for large stretches of the season.

Awww...come on now...he has one great shift last night where he was mad and it led to guys being on their ass and a penalty shot....If he brought that 3-4 shifts a night this club loses a lot less games and a few more guys might follow in line . Blackwell the only guy that does his job consistently ...HUSTLES for his pay .

 

[chosen]

And 80-90% percent his effort is unquestioned. But this was one of those times where he wasn’t very good. No care for the puck,flinging it all over the ice and creating a bunch of turnover. He’s nor perfect. He’s not god. No one expects him to be. But when he is off, others should pick him up by playing well. He’s bailed everyone else out enough

He's one of the best players to ever put on a Rangers jersey. It's not a question of bailing him or anyone else out. It's a very young team that isn't strong enough up the middle or on D. No matter how much people bitch about effort or coaching, it won't change reality.

The team is where it should be, based on what we knew we had before the season. Lots of fans don't like that and look for excuses even though the team is where they themselves thought the team would and should be.

 

[Avery16]

Betcha bottom dollar DiGiuseppe in for Kravstov also. Quinn can't help himself.

 

[leetch99]

Honestly doesn't matter you can't trust this coach and team to beat anyone in this division.

Certainly not in a playoff series for sure...we just don't bring enough edge in a division game on enough nights . Gm Gorton hopefully knows how to make that roster shift in the next two seasons or our mix is still bad and winning nothing but individual accolades .

 

[eco's bones]

After watching Kreider on the penalty shot it’s very easy to see why we never use him in shootouts. Just watching his body language I was thinking there’s no way he’s going to score and then the graphic came up that he’s 0 for 3 in his career. He did put a shot on goal but I wasn’t crazy about his approach. He should have acted like he was injured and headed for the locker room and let Mika or Panarin take it for him.

 

[leetch99]

I agree Ola....shift him to C....unless you can move Kreider . Laf is young and talented...he can pull that off . It solves so many problems for us roster wise .

 

[Ratelleitlikeitis]

So can lots of other teams, yet....

Yet, he's waiting for only our call.

 

[chosen]

Yet, he's waiting for only our call.

He'd rather be unemployed than work for anyone but the Rangers.

 

[chosen]

After watching Kreider on the penalty shot it’s very easy to see why we never use him in shootouts. Just watching his body language I was thinking there’s no way he’s going to score and then the graphic came up that he’s 0 for 3 in his career. He did put a shot on goal but I wasn’t crazy about his approach. He should have acted like he was injured and headed for the locker room and let Mika or Panarin take it for him.

Didn't the rule used to be that anyone on the ice at the time of the penalty can take the penalty shot?

 

[ThirdEye]

Well, the playoff hopes where certainly nice while they lasted. No excuse now not to play the kids a bit more

 

[IDvsEGO]

Didn't the rule used to be that anyone on the ice at the time of the penalty can take the penalty shot?

Not for a hooking call. There’s a couple odd penalty shot situations where that’s the rule but never for a hook.

 

[Off Sides]

Yeah, I mean, I just don't know. It certainly looks that way, but that's a pretty serious allegation.

I am curious though, I do understand how people interpret the analytics regarding faceoffs. But for those that think it's literally meaningless, at what point does it start to take on some meaning? The Rangers are at 44%, 2% worse than the 30th ranked team. They've also had several games tied late off of lost defensive zone faceoffs.

This is an area that absolutely must be improved.

Offensive and Defensive zone Face-offs are at least somewhat important. Those draw on the PP or PK even more so.

Overall I agree with those who say they are really not all that important in the grand scheme, yet any time a good face-off team plays a bad one, it's noticeable at least a couple times over the course of the game.

It's kind of like saying players missing the net with shots is not important, until twice in a game they do, the puck caroms around and out of the zone trapping everyone, then the other team comes the other way and scores. (The Del Zotto)

 

[NYSPORTS]

The center situation is absolutely dire. Zibanejad should not get another contract from this team. Strome's next contract is probably going to be more than he's worth. I'm not saying don't, but it's something to think about. Chytil is Chytil. And that's it. That's all you can bank on as far as guys who will be NHL centers.
.

the center position is absolutely dire so don’t bring back the only center worth keeping?

You’ll drain the wing and defensive depth trying to find two centers.

At the deadline, if possible, i wonder if a Buch plus can pry Peyton Krebs away from Vegas. I don’t see them beating the Avs without an upgrade.

 

[Synergy27]

Offensive and Defensive zone Face-offs are at least somewhat important. Those draw on the PP or PK even more so.

Overall I agree with those who say they are really not all that important in the grand scheme, yet any time a good face-off team plays a bad one, it's noticeable at least a couple times over the course of the game.

It's kind of like saying players missing the net with shots is not important, until twice in a game they do, the puck caroms around and out of the zone trapping everyone, then the other team comes the other way and scores. (The Del Zotto)

Yeah. I do get it. I just have a feeling that the analysis breaks down at the margins, and the Rangers are at the very edge of the margin this year.

Another thing I’d be curious about is if those teams with crazy good records when bringing a lead into the third period all have at least one dominant faceoff man. Like the Torts Rangers with Dom Moore.

I think the existing analyses informing opinion on faceoffs are incomplete at best.

 

[chosen]

Offensive and Defensive zone Face-offs are at least somewhat important. Those draw on the PP or PK even more so.

Overall I agree with those who say they are really not all that important in the grand scheme, yet any time a good face-off team plays a bad one, it's noticeable at least a couple times over the course of the game.

It's kind of like saying players missing the net with shots is not important, until twice in a game they do, the puck caroms around and out of the zone trapping everyone, then the other team comes the other way and scores. (The Del Zotto)

If possession is the most important thing in metrics, which I assume is right, why isn't gaining possession on faceoffs important?

 

[chosen]

Not for a hooking call. There’s a couple odd penalty shot situations where that’s the rule but never for a hook.

Guess I should look that up.