Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The long-term health of the team is not served by making Crosby miserable enough to demand a trade.

The team will be stronger after a 10-year rebuild with Crosby going out on his own terms as a Pittsburgh Penguin than with a 5-6 year turnaround where every player we draft knows just how expendable they are.

Will it? Or is that your emotional attachment to Sid talking?

Does Bedard give a shit that Kane and Toews didn't retire Hawks? Does Celebrini give a shit that Thornton and Marleau weren't allowed to stick around? Would McKenna give a shit if the Pens dismantled their roster and Sid wanted to be dealt to Colorado because of it? Nahhh.

Sentimental shit is exactly what allowed this team to fall into a death spiral. And even after all that, I still don't even believe Sid would ask out. Dude's a psychotic creature of habit. He's not just gonna pick up and start fresh for the final two years of his NHL career. Ain't gonna happen, but if by some miracle it did, oh well. Get over it. /shrug

 

[Empoleon8771]

Trading Crosby won't make a difference for this team's future, the return wouldn't be strong enough to be franchise altering and you're ruining Crosby's legacy as a one team player.

The late 1st and B prospect you'd get for him (since he'd be picking his location to likely one team) isn't even remotely worth trading him. Crosby offers more value as a mentor for the young guys and maintaining his legacy as only a Penguin than what he'd bring back in a trade.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah so... that's where you and I diverge BFD haha

I largely agree with the team moving ahead but I think they can keep a franchise legend who is zero problem to this roster and still do that. Of course there is emotional attachment. It's kinda dull being a fan of anything if there is not.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Nobody's trying to trade Crosby. I still don't believe he'd throw a tantrum and demand a trade if this team got ripped down to studs and bolts.

I'm just saying, in the hypothetical situation where he plays his final two years elsewhere because he shit his pants that Mike Sullivan was fired and Bryan Rust got traded, that's not gonna make a difference in the long run. /shrug

 

[eXile3]

If you trade Sid it’s for his benefit, not the Pens. It’s sad seeing him play with garbage.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah so... that's where you and I diverge BFD haha

I largely agree with the team moving ahead but I think they can keep a franchise legend who is zero problem to this roster and still do that. Of course there is emotional attachment. It's kinda dull being a fan of anything if there is not.

Honestly if Crosby could get a franchise altering trade return for moving him, I probably would move him. It would suck for a legacy POV, but the team is more important and setting them up for success should be the primary focus. But that simply does not happen in the NHL, this isn't the NFL where you can drastically alter your franchise by trading one top guy.

Even if you're pulling off Mittelstadt, Ritchie and a 2025 1st for Crosby from Colorado (which seems optimistic IMO), what does that do to improve their future? Ritchie is another McGroarty guy and the 2025 1st is likely another Pickering caliber guy. It's not moving the needle for their future rebuild, it just makes it slightly less bad.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

I am not interested in them competing for Stanley Cups. I mean... not the realistic part of my brain, anyway. But I'm of the mind that you make the playoffs and just never know after that. I think we've all seen some crazy shit in that theater over the years from teams that "had no chance." I just want Crosby and Malkin to be getting the opportunity because they deserve at least that much. But here we are.

My main point is that saying "this team's problem is that they aged out" is not even close to a fraction of the story even if it's not UNtrue here in 2024. I don't see how we could sit here and watch how the (various) front offices and coaching staff has handled their business since the B2B and think otherwise, frankly.

This is not the first year where it's been true that they've aged out of winning anything. It's been true for several years. The last time they could've won was maybe 2021, but only because that season was shorter and there was less wear and tear on their bodies then.

Will it? Or is that your emotional attachment to Sid talking?

I'm not going to deny that I have an emotional attachment, but yes, I believe that the team is worse off by forcing Sid out.

Does Bedard give a shit that Kane and Toews didn't retire Hawks? Does Celebrini give a shit that Thornton and Marleau weren't allowed to stick around? Would McKenna give a shit if the Pens dismantled their roster and Sid wanted to be dealt to Colorado because of it?

Do Bedard, Celebrini, or future McKenna give a shit about those players specifically? No. Do they give a shit about a team culture that tells them that they're expendable? Absolutely.
Loyalty is a two-way street. You don't have a ~15-year window like we did unless the team is loyal to the star players. Without the team being loyal, you get mercenaries who chase the highest bidder. Then, we're rebuilding in 7-8 years because the players fled as soon as they could in UFA.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Honestly if Crosby could get a franchise altering trade return for moving him, I probably would move him. It would suck for a legacy POV, but the team is more important and setting them up for success should be the primary focus. But that simply does not happen in the NHL, this isn't the NFL where you can drastically alter your franchise by trading one top guy.

Even if you're pulling off Mittelstadt, Ritchie and a 2025 1st for Crosby from Colorado (which seems optimistic IMO), what does that do to improve their future? Ritchie is another McGroarty guy and the 2025 1st is likely another Pickering caliber guy. It's not moving the needle for their future rebuild, it just makes it slightly less bad.

Right. Which... for the record is also kind of my line of thinking from a slightly different angle when it comes to taking on utter bums like Hayes for a 2nd.

Does that REALLY help. REALLY?

It doesn't help my eye-health when watching the games that's for sure.

 

[Turin]

Sid isn’t playing with garbage. He’s playing with Rakell and Rust. He just isn’t as good as last year so far.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

This is not the first year where it's been true that they've aged out of winning anything. It's been true for several years. The last time they could've won was maybe 2021, but only because that season was shorter and there was less wear and tear on their bodies then.

I'm not going to deny that I have an emotional attachment, but yes, I believe that the team is worse off by forcing Sid out.

Do Bedard, Celebrini, or future McKenna give a shit about those players specifically? No. Do they give a shit about a team culture that tells them that they're expendable? Absolutely.
Loyalty is a two-way street. You don't have a ~15-year window like we did unless the team is loyal to the star players. Without the team being loyal, you get mercenaries who chase the highest bidder. Then, we're rebuilding in 7-8 years because the players fled as soon as they could in UFA.

Fair enough I suppose. I put age on the list of reasons but not nearly where you do in importance.

For the record we are extending the same courtesies/understanding to Evgeni Malkin as we are Sid here, yes?

 

[Empoleon8771]

If you trade Sid it’s for his benefit, not the Pens. It’s sad seeing him play with garbage.

I don't understand this line of thought. Should they have traded Lemieux in the early 2000s just because the Penguins were bad and it's his benefit for not being here?

If he wants out to go win, sure let him do it. But this idea that trading him is more about "his benefit" is silly. The team simply needs to be focused on making the best moves for the team. Not only that, but it's also putting a "I know what's best for you" idea towards Sid, which is pretty insulting towards him and what he has accomplished.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Fair enough I suppose. I put age on the list of reasons but not nearly where you do in importance.

For the record we are extending the same courtesies/understanding to Evgeni Malkin as we are Sid here, yes?

Yes, I think making Malkin miserable enough to demand a trade would be just about as bad as making Sid demand a trade.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yes, I think making Malkin miserable enough to demand a trade would be just about as bad as making Sid demand a trade.

Well they've sure TRIED. But he doesn't seem to get it or he just doesn't care.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

This is not the first year where it's been true that they've aged out of winning anything. It's been true for several years. The last time they could've won was maybe 2021, but only because that season was shorter and there was less wear and tear on their bodies then.

I'm not going to deny that I have an emotional attachment, but yes, I believe that the team is worse off by forcing Sid out.

Do Bedard, Celebrini, or future McKenna give a shit about those players specifically? No. Do they give a shit about a team culture that tells them that they're expendable? Absolutely.
Loyalty is a two-way street. You don't have a ~15-year window like we did unless the team is loyal to the star players. Without the team being loyal, you get mercenaries who chase the highest bidder. Then, we're rebuilding in 7-8 years because the players fled as soon as they could in UFA.

Nobody's forcing Sid out. Advocating for the team to do what teams do in the normal course of competitive eras is not the same as telling Sid he's not welcome to retire a Penguin. You're the one making the assumption that he's too weak minded or selfish to realize the business of hockey and the ebbs and flows that all teams go through.

I don't believe he'd ask out. He knows where this team's been at and where it's headed. He knew that when he re-signed. He probably genuinely believes the team is still competitive because you don't get to the level Sid has without some degree of borderline optimistic delusion, but he's well aware of where they stand in terms of the NHL competitive scene.

This team's about to miss the playoffs for a third straight time. Sid might genuinely never play another minute of playoff hockey. His PPG streak is in serious jeopardy. If he's not already pissed off and/or miserable due to the trajectory of this team since the B2Bs, then he either doesn't give that much of a shit, or he's dumb as f***.

He's welcome to retire a Penguin. He's one of the few athletes, in any sport, who can genuinely say he's earned it when it comes to calling the shots on how his final years play out. But if this organization wasn't dysfunctional and inept, they'd be aggressively shopping anybody of value to stockpile draft capital and/or prospects, and really investing in bolstering their pro and amateur scouting depts, and folks to help develop young players. (-edit- And of course, they'd be scoping out the coaching scene for a Sullivan replacement with the long term in mind) But they are dysfunctional and inept, so this is all just shooting the shit out of boredom--you'll get your way, don't worry your pretty little head bud, the team will continue to let things rot so Sid gets to be comfortable.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Nobody's forcing Sid out. Advocating for the team to do what teams do in the normal course of competitive eras is not the same as telling Sid he's not welcome to retire a Penguin. You're the one making the assumption that he's too weak minded or selfish to realize the business of hockey and the ebbs and flows that all teams go through.

I don't believe Sid is unfamiliar with the concept of a rebuild. I do think that he would choose to not be part of it.

I don't believe he'd ask out. He knows where this team's been at and where it's headed. He knew that when he re-signed. He probably genuinely believes the team is still competitive because you don't get to the level Sid has without some degree of borderline optimistic delusion, but he's well aware of where they stand in terms of the NHL competitive scene.

I also agree that Sid thinks the team can still be competitive, but I think that if it dawned on him that the team couldn't be competitive - say, by trading every player with value - that he would also want out.

 

[SEALBound]

Sid isn’t playing with garbage. He’s playing with Rakell and Rust. He just isn’t as good as last year so far.

That's kinda the "elephant in the room" for this season, quite honestly. A lot of guys have looked like ass, and it's been discussed (some more than others), but Sid's looked flat-out mopey in several games.

 

[eXile3]

I don't understand this line of thought. Should they have traded Lemieux in the early 2000s just because the Penguins were bad and it's his benefit for not being here?

If he wants out to go win, sure let him do it. But this idea that trading him is more about "his benefit" is silly. The team simply needs to be focused on making the best moves for the team. Not only that, but it's also putting a "I know what's best for you" idea towards Sid, which is pretty insulting towards him and what he has accomplished.

In that situation Sid wants out. I’m not saying trade him unsolicited.

 

[SEALBound]

I don't believe Sid is unfamiliar with the concept of a rebuild. I do think that he would choose to not be part of it.

I also agree that Sid thinks the team can still be competitive, but I think that if it dawned on him that the team couldn't be competitive - say, by trading every player with value - that he would also want out.

But rebuilding teams don't always do that. Anaheim kept Fowler, Terry, Zegras. Columbus has kept Werenski, Jenner. Utah has kept Keller, Schmaltz, Crouse, and Hayton.

Not every rebuild is gutting a team to studs because then you end up like Chicago who can't surround Bedard with shit and you're forced to go out and give out bloated contracts to shitty vets who no one wants anything to do with.

You can still start a rebuild and keep Sid. This team is going to blow for 5 years anyway. What difference does it make?

 

[chethejet]

Dubas is moving to younger players as prospects as trade parameters. Also picks but he knows the transition to after Sid and potentially Geno will be the year or two that they are in the hunt for a top pick. I do think Sid knows that and depending on what is the roster next year will energize him for the last 2 years. Pens will have cap to use going forward as the contracts of Karlsson, Rust, Geno and either Jarry or Graves is moved. I see Karlsson moved this off season with some retention. Rust has declining salary that is attractive. This is the second inning of the rebuild. Longway to go.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don't believe Sid is unfamiliar with the concept of a rebuild. I do think that he would choose to not be part of it.

I also agree that Sid thinks the team can still be competitive, but I think that if it dawned on him that the team couldn't be competitive - say, by trading every player with value - that he would also want out.

Well, then we fundamentally disagree on that specific point. Which is fair.

Sid's a dude who has had the same pre-game/gameday routine for like 20 years without changing a thing. He eats the same food before games and on the plane afterward. He refuses to touch the same lines on the ice. He does the same pre-game skate routine. He's worn the same ratty undershirt for probably a decade or more.

He's not gonna pick up everything he's known at the NHL level and start over for the final two years of his career. It's just not gonna happen, whether the team continues to allow itself to be held in suspended animation until Sid gets his final Olympics, or if they start to dismantle things around him and Geno. If that were a legitimate possibility, it would've happened already and he wouldn't have re-signed imo. He grew up idolizing Yzerman and the whole one team thing means a lot to him, based on every account we've ever gotten from people who know the guy. /shrug

But this whole "we can't even try to move forward cuz what if Sid frowns" stuff is exactly how the team's been operating, and it's exactly why the team's sucked for years and will continue to suck until like 2032 or something imo.

Petts, Rust, Rakell and EK shouldn't be Penguins come October. If that makes Sid pout, so be it. I still don't think he'd ever ask to be traded unless the team told Geno he was no longer welcome.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

But rebuilding teams don't always do that. Anaheim kept Fowler, Terry, Zegras. Columbus has kept Werenski, Jenner. Utah has kept Keller, Schmaltz, Crouse, and Hayton.

Not every rebuild is gutting a team to studs because then you end up like Chicago who can't surround Bedard with shit and you're forced to go out and give out bloated contracts to shitty vets who no one wants anything to do with.

You can still start a rebuild and keep Sid. This team is going to blow for 5 years anyway. What difference does it make?

I'm not sure why Fowler, Werenski, Jenner, Keller, etc. haven't demanded trades yet. Maybe because many of them are young enough that they think they'll be playing on a competitive team after the rebuild is over? Nonetheless, I believe that Sid wouldn't want to stick around in such a situation.

Well, then we fundamentally disagree on that specific point. Which is fair.

Yep, I think we can agree to disagree.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

And on a different subject, I saw this and thought it was funny.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Back to regularly scheduled bitching:

Play Puljujarvi you cowards. If only to increase his trade value and trade him at the TDL.

 

[SEALBound]

I'm not sure why Fowler, Werenski, Jenner, Keller, etc. haven't demanded trades yet. Maybe because many of them are young enough that they think they'll be playing on a competitive team after the rebuild is over? Nonetheless, I believe that Sid wouldn't want to stick around in such a situation.

That's not an unfair guess, except it goes against literally EVERYTHING he's ever said, what the organization is saying, and what reporters are saying.

I have no idea how many times the cycle of:

Crosby: I'm fully committed to finishing my career in Pittsburgh. That's important to me.
Org: He wants to finish his career here and we support that.
Reporters: Yeah, Sid wants to stay in Pittsburgh.
*team loses a game*
Fans on HFB: Sid doesn't want to stick around. He wants a trade!

has to be done before people accept reality.

And on a different subject, I saw this and thought it was funny.

Can't wait for Owen and Cody to fight in practice.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Oh also... I told you guys Pickering was this team's best prospect.