Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX

[SEALBound]

We also need to keep in mind that there's a relationship between coaching systems and the guys on the roster's ability to execute. It doesn't matter what system you run, an old top line with three 4th lines consisting of mediocre players isn't going to bode well against a young top line followed by legitimate scoring lines. And that's not even factoring in goalies.

And in very VERY minor defense of Sullivan, if you're crappy players can't execute the system well and put on top of that, the hockey skills and IQ to score...then there's only so much a coach can do. Sure he can make minor tweaks here and there to adjust to his guys strengths but that's not going to change the fact that Sid is 37 and Geno is 38.

We all knew this day would be come. The day we knew they couldn't do it anymore. What are people mad about though? We aren't getting into the playoffs and our current performance has us getting the top 5 pick we desperately need.

He didn't wait with Eller.


I wonder how much uglier it will get. I don't see things getting better with Sullivan behind the bench. The second half of the season might have some really ugly attendance numbers when fans realize there's no chance at the playoffs.

He did say "Washington finally met the asking price" and that the deal was in place since spring. So I think that trade was more Washington than Dubas but I get your point.

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

At somepoint it has to be a forgone conclusion that Sullivan is too arrogant to change his system. I know we've said this.

But I feel like any normal person would feel some sense of embarrassment on our Playoff performance since 2018 and then the missing of the Playoff in consecutive years.

He did say "Washington finally met the asking price" and that the deal was in place since spring. So I think that trade was more Washington than Dubas but I get your point.

Willing to bet it was Dubas who caved. Caps don't even need Eller right now. Unless they thought he would be key in a Cup run this year

Which I bet he will be good in the Playoff and every regular season against us this year.

 

[Ulf5]

At the risk of 'defending' Sullivan again, they were pretty good at 5-on-5 last year IIRC. So it's reasonable for them to come to the conclusion that they don't need to make drastic changes 5-on-5 going into the season.

I think what you're describing with coaches having 'their system' is largely true, but it's also incredibly frustrating. Especially for a coach who once upon a time DID drastically change his system mid-season and have the ultimate success with it. Why would he be so unwillingly to try something?

At this point, even ignoring the roster issues, I'm not sure that he can recover. I think the players have tuned him out. They need a drastic shake up and I don't know that trading Lars Eller is going to suffice.

C'mon now. He's giving defensively responsible, mistake limiting, Noel Acciari an ever expanding role. 5th best amongst forwards vs. Detroit 16:13 of ice time. And using 3 fourth lines, he's miles ahead of the coaching competition in strategy. What more do you want from the guy?
(*checks goals against per team standings, Last= Pens @ 71.)

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Adjustments to what?...the gameplan....?

If hockey gameplans are so basic and simple, then it shouldn't take the coach telling the media what they are. They (and the fans) should be able to figure it out themselves.

If he's not making adjustments (which I don't know to be true, pretty sure Jesse and maybe others have done some reporting on changes he's made), then THAT'S the problem. Not that he can't or won't answer the media's questions.

If he's making adjustments, then they are clearly the wrong adjustments and/or the team isn't capable of playing that way and/or the team has given up on him.



Again, I can't stand Sullivan. I just don't think this is a valid criticism.

Have a good day.

It's not so much we can't tell what the adjustments are, it's asking him what they are because they don't see any and the ones they see isn't suited for the players he has. The biggest part about planning your strategy and game plan is you use what you have to the best of its ability and make changes for areas you can't fit those players in for that system.

Sullivan just flat out refuses to talk about what changes he made and when you see what's transpired this season, it's the same shit we saw in the last 20 games where they played fast and loose defensively allowing 3+ goals against per game, allowed a lot of shots per game, were scoring a lot but just barely winning those games with how many they gave up but they were winning them enough that it made others think they could be a lot better. When really when you dug into the underlying numbers, it was just a fluky hot streak and that dreadful defensive play, pinching at the wrong times, not being harder on the back check or the forecheck, trying to force passes up the wall, bad reads, etc has all carried into this season. So for about 38 games now from last season to now, they've played this style.

Sullivan has admitted he tried the passive 1-2-2 system but only for limited situations because it doesn't work for long stretches, I agree, but there's ways to make adjustments to that and he just doesn't know how to. You hear Rick Tocchet talk about his system and his adjustments, you'd be clutching your pearls at how much info he gives as do other coaches, it's Sullivan that is the one that refuses to really dig into it but then acts like he'll talk tactics if they want, well no, tactics don't mean shit if that's not what you're employing.

He constantly refuses to match or adjust to the other team, if they're open to a dump and chase as an exploit, he will never do it, he still coaches his system and then whines about how he made adjustments back in 2016 to beat the Preds, like who gives a f*** about 2016 or 2017. We're in 2024 and missing a 3rd playoffs in a row, whatever f***ing idea he has isn't working and hasn't for over 180+ games and several players are playing poorly.

It's fair to say the vast majority of this team is playing well below their capabilities and his idea of usage for players is nonsensical. He talks about the best 20 to win games and routinely sat Puljujarvi while letting Beau and Acciari make mistakes or be useless, because of what, the PK? This team is not lacking in PK players that's for damn sure.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

It's like you see Sullivan understand what he needs to do or how it works, he talks about speed not being just skating, but mental and I mentioned this as well, when you are second guessing or not sure, you play slower, so mentally the Pens are slow because they have no idea what they should be doing and that is guidance Sullivan has failed to provide.

If you have a bunch of players that are good at forechecking hard and dump and chase and you decide you know what, I want them to carry the puck in because that's how I think it should be done, but your players don't fit that style, is it the players fault or the coach's fault that he refuses to make that adjustment? That's on the coach. Especially more so when he wants these types of players and then expects to play a way that doesn't really fit their style or abilities. He rarely puts players in positions to succeed, plays favourites, gives the bottom 6 usage that would make sense in the early 90's but not anymore. Sullivan is so close to this he can't see the bigger picture, all he sees is the core and how he wants to make sure they're getting the ice time and chances and that should carry them forward to wins.

He's that lost with this team, it's no wonder the players are playing like shit, they have no idea what to do as a fix, if A doesn't work, you have a B, C, D, and E.

Sullivan just shows up with if A doesn't work, you're the problem.

 

[Pancakes]

Sullivan just shows up with if A doesn't work, you're the problem.

His message is stale and his system is stale. It happens to every coach, even good ones. I don't know if Sullivan is a good coach. Maybe he leaves the Pens and has success somewhere else. Maybe he leaves the Pens and falls flat on his face like Bylsma did and then has to spend a decade learning some humility in the AHL.

Regardless, his days of succeeding here seem to be done.

But the Pens would rather lose their way with their guy (Sullivan) than risk putting someone else in there. It's f-ing insanely stubborn and I hope the fans punish them for it and they have to deal with empty arenas and fans bronx cheering the goalies the rest of the season.

 

[cygnus47]

C'mon now. He's giving defensively responsible, mistake limiting, Noel Acciari an ever expanding role. 5th best amongst forwards vs. Detroit 16:13 of ice time. And using 3 fourth lines, he's miles ahead of the coaching competition in strategy. What more do you want from the guy?
(*checks goals against per team standings, Last= Pens @ 71.)

In 2016 we won with 3 second lines. In 2017 we won with 2 first lines. Now we try to win with 3 fourth lines to complete the job.

 

[SEALBound]

In 2016 we won with 3 second lines. In 2017 we won with 2 first lines. Now we try to win with 3 fourth lines to complete the job.

In 2016, we had a top line, 2 2nd lines, and a 3rd line as a 4th line. We were deep.

 

[BusinessGoose]

Dude, video from 2016 we were a dominating team

It's one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen

Even though other teams have been good, the skill and chemistry and effort.. My gawd

San Jose is my west coast team, and I was so sad they finally made the Finals, cause I knew they had no chance....

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

His message is stale and his system is stale. It happens to every coach, even good ones. I don't know if Sullivan is a good coach. Maybe he leaves the Pens and has success somewhere else. Maybe he leaves the Pens and falls flat on his face like Bylsma did and then has to spend a decade learning some humility in the AHL.

Regardless, his days of succeeding here seem to be done.

But the Pens would rather lose their way with their guy (Sullivan) than risk putting someone else in there. It's f-ing insanely stubborn and I hope the fans punish them for it and they have to deal with empty arenas and fans bronx cheering the goalies the rest of the season.

I'm willing to bet that Sullivan's not any better than an average coach, at best. He might not completely fizzle out of the league like these 1-year wonders, but I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that Sullivan's also not going to be on a tier with these guys who have success every stop they make.

The proof is in his career coaching record. Aside from the 2016/2017 back to backs, his coaching career is pretty poor, especially when it comes to playoff success. The good coaches might not win Cups everywhere they go, but you see them at least go deep in the years they don't win.

 

[3074326]

San Jose is my west coast team, and I was so sad they finally made the Finals, cause I knew they had no chance....

I was so confident in that series that I splurged on center ice tickets.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I was so confident in that series that I splurged on center ice tickets.

My one co-worker kept telling me to get tickets for the finals as you never know when they'll be back there. So true. It's especially bitter since he passed away from esophageal cancer about a year ago. Was only in his early 40s.

On a happier note, we're heading to Columbus this weekend and we may be able to finally check out that Indian place you suggested.

 

[eXile3]

Dude, video from 2016 we were a dominating team

It's one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen

Even though other teams have been good, the skill and chemistry and effort.. My gawd

San Jose is my west coast team, and I was so sad they finally made the Finals, cause I knew they had no chance....

It was a bad match up for them. We were fast and they were more big, zone possession built. We skated circles around them.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I kind of wish when Dubas dealt Eller to Caps, he would have brought back Ethan Bear and then immediately moved Grzelcyk. Maybe be Eller + Aho for Bear and the picks.

I'd be fine with Bear playing with Graves and going Shea with Letang. At this point it'd be better than the shit show they're rocking. Bear is a player I've always felt was severely underrated and would be a good partner for someone like Graves. He was in that player assistance program recently but he's back and playing in Hershey and has been playing well.

Then at the deadline if he plays well, another trade chip.

Pettersson, Karlsson
Shea, Letang
Graves, Bear
St Ivany

Shea plays a super safe game and I like his game in a baby sitter role, also he'd be back on his strong side again. Bear was fantastic with Hughes not so long ago so he has some very good defensive smarts and is mobile.

 

[Ginormousthumbs]

I'm willing to bet that Sullivan's not any better than an average coach, at best. He might not completely fizzle out of the league like these 1-year wonders, but I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that Sullivan's also not going to be on a tier with these guys who have success every stop they make.

The proof is in his career coaching record. Aside from the 2016/2017 back to backs, his coaching career is pretty poor, especially when it comes to playoff success. The good coaches might not win Cups everywhere they go, but you see them at least go deep in the years they don't win.

I feel like this is accurate and the only way for this to play out is for him to test the waters in Columbus or Anaheim.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I feel like this is accurate and the only way for this to play out is for him to test the waters in Columbus or Anaheim.

Like with Bylsma, I'd love to see how Sullivan does when he doesn't have prime Sid/Geno to prop him up. We're sort of seeing the results with aging Sid/Geno unable to carry the team any longer and having to rely on *cough* a good team structure to win games more now.

 

[3074326]

My one co-worker kept telling me to get tickets for the finals as you never know when they'll be back there. So true. It's especially bitter since he passed away from esophageal cancer about a year ago. Was only in his early 40s.

On a happier note, we're heading to Columbus this weekend and we may be able to finally check out that Indian place you suggested.

Hell yeah! It’s still awesome. Let me know what you think if you end up there.

I know the local sports radio station staff pretty well from work. They’re inviting me to their suite since they know I’m a Pens fan. Pumped about it.

If you don’t end up at Aab, Jet’s pizza is in the arena and it’s ridiculous.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Dude, video from 2016 we were a dominating team

It's one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen

Even though other teams have been good, the skill and chemistry and effort.. My gawd

San Jose is my west coast team, and I was so sad they finally made the Finals, cause I knew they had no chance....

I just wanted to see Joe Thornton cry. I can't remember who he injured in his first two seasons as a Bruin.

I thought it was Morozov maybe but my memory fails me on this one.

 

[McGroarty2]

I just wanted to see Joe Thornton cry. I can't remember who he injured in his first two seasons as a Bruin.

I thought it was Morozov maybe but my memory fails me on this one.

Maybe it was payback for what Straka did to him?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Maybe it was payback for what Straka did to him?

What was that?

 

[pistolpete11]

C'mon now. He's giving defensively responsible, mistake limiting, Noel Acciari an ever expanding role. 5th best amongst forwards vs. Detroit 16:13 of ice time. And using 3 fourth lines, he's miles ahead of the coaching competition in strategy. What more do you want from the guy?
(*checks goals against per team standings, Last= Pens @ 71.)

Holy hell. What is wrong with you people? I say 1 thing that's not 100% critical of Sullivan (after calling for his head for 5 years....and still calling for his head actually), and all I get is "Yeah, but what about this? Or that?"

Talking about the system at 5-on-5, bro. Not every aspect of the job. They were pretty good at 5-on-5 last year. Tell me how that's wrong. So as a coaching staff...again, I would have fired Sullivan 5 years ago...but as a coaching staff, it's reasonable for them to think that sweeping changes weren't needed at 5-on-5. It hasn't worked out and I think what they've done to fix it is obviously insufficient.

It's not so much we can't tell what the adjustments are, it's asking him what they are because they don't see any and the ones they see isn't suited for the players he has. The biggest part about planning your strategy and game plan is you use what you have to the best of its ability and make changes for areas you can't fit those players in for that system.

Sullivan just flat out refuses to talk about what changes he made and when you see what's transpired this season, it's the same shit we saw in the last 20 games where they played fast and loose defensively allowing 3+ goals against per game, allowed a lot of shots per game, were scoring a lot but just barely winning those games with how many they gave up but they were winning them enough that it made others think they could be a lot better. When really when you dug into the underlying numbers, it was just a fluky hot streak and that dreadful defensive play, pinching at the wrong times, not being harder on the back check or the forecheck, trying to force passes up the wall, bad reads, etc has all carried into this season. So for about 38 games now from last season to now, they've played this style.

Sullivan has admitted he tried the passive 1-2-2 system but only for limited situations because it doesn't work for long stretches, I agree, but there's ways to make adjustments to that and he just doesn't know how to. You hear Rick Tocchet talk about his system and his adjustments, you'd be clutching your pearls at how much info he gives as do other coaches, it's Sullivan that is the one that refuses to really dig into it but then acts like he'll talk tactics if they want, well no, tactics don't mean shit if that's not what you're employing.

He constantly refuses to match or adjust to the other team, if they're open to a dump and chase as an exploit, he will never do it, he still coaches his system and then whines about how he made adjustments back in 2016 to beat the Preds, like who gives a f*** about 2016 or 2017. We're in 2024 and missing a 3rd playoffs in a row, whatever f***ing idea he has isn't working and hasn't for over 180+ games and several players are playing poorly.

It's fair to say the vast majority of this team is playing well below their capabilities and his idea of usage for players is nonsensical. He talks about the best 20 to win games and routinely sat Puljujarvi while letting Beau and Acciari make mistakes or be useless, because of what, the PK? This team is not lacking in PK players that's for damn sure.

Bro.....I'M NOT DEFENDING SULLIVAN.

The point I was making is that I don't care if he, Tocchet, or Scotty f***ing Bowman talk to the media about what they are doing. What matters is what happens on the ice. Period.

 

[McGroarty2]

What was that?

Slashed and broke his wrist in preseason.

 

[chethejet]

Dubas is moving towards his second mandate which is rebuilding the system. I do think he moves Karlsson, Rust after the season. Pens get picks/prospects. Keep adding to the system and developing the prospects. This will take a couple years to turn the ship but a new coaching staff, young players and getting top 10 picks for the next couple years and with lottery luck Pens can be back.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Fair point, but weren't they also really good down the stretch? Not sure what the stats say, but they at least won a lot of games.

They were good down the stretch. Bunting was also playing like his ass was on fire and Graves was in the pressbox.

So considering what we see now, I'm guessing that was an "after trade" bounce that you see from a lot of players. Bunting's energy was infectious and they almost pulled a playoff berth out of their ass.

Now no one seems to care except for Eller and Geno.

 

[pistolpete11]

Now no one seems to care except for Eller and Geno.

Almost like I've heard that story before....(minus Eller, obviously).