Salary Cap: Pens 2024 Summer Thread: "Thus, knocking us out of these superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow a non-playoff bound gap!"

[SEALBound]

Graves is a 3rd pairing defenseman.

Kotkainiemi is a middle six forward.

A lot easier to hide 5 million amongst 12 forwards versus hiding 4.5 amongst 6 defensemen.

KK is a 4th line player that needs heavy sheltering.

This isn't speculation. We literally just witnessed this in the playoffs.

The Carolina playoff loss wasn't more than 12 hours old when people immediately suggested that he was a buyout candidate.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Man you’re all crazy arguing over a bunch of players who suck. Can’t wait for offseason to be over already

Yeah the part that confuses me here is if the team wants to get young players, why do they have to default to these awful players with awful contracts?

You can likely get Robertson from the Leafs for a 2nd or Kaliyev from the Kings for like a 4th. Why would you pick Smith for Kotkaniemi with Kotkaniemi's horrendous deal over that? Hell, you might even be able to do Smith to Carolina for Drury, why would you pick Kotkaniemi over Drury in that case?

Trade Smith to Carolina for Jack Drury and trade one of their 2nds for Nick Robertson, you instantly added a 23 year old middle-6 winger and a 24 year old 3C while not having to take on a heinously bad contract.

 

[Andy99]

If I’m Dubas, out of the young or youngish players who may reportedly be available, I’d be trying hard to trade for Pinto, Necas, Perfetti, Holtz, maybe Ehlers…I’m not taking on PLD or Kot’s contracts…I don’t think Drury is available

 

[Gurglesons]

Kotkaniemi has had middle-6 production literally once in his career.

Putting up 33 points per 82 games is not "middle-6 production".

Kotkaniemi has been playing 12-14 minutes a night since coming to Carolina and has scored at 1.75 points per 60 rate.

That's good for 170th out of 434 forwards that played 1000+ 5v5 minutes in those three years.

Kotkaniemi has produced 77 points in that time at 5v5.

That's good for 160th out of 434 forwards that played 1000+ 5v5 minutes in those three years.

How is that not middle 6 production exactly?

Yeah the part that confuses me here is if the team wants to get young players, why do they have to default to these awful players with awful contracts?

You can likely get Robertson from the Leafs for a 2nd or Kaliyev from the Kings for like a 4th. Why would you pick Smith for Kotkaniemi with Kotkaniemi's horrendous deal over that? Hell, you might even be able to do Smith to Carolina for Drury, why would you pick Kotkaniemi over Drury in that case?

Trade Smith to Carolina for Jack Drury and trade one of their 2nds for Nick Robertson, you instantly added a 23 year old middle-6 winger and a 24 year old 3C while not having to take on a heinously bad contract.

Because Robertson and Kaliyev aren't skill sets that we need.

We need a young C that can help elevate minutes from Malkin and Sid. Not another offense oriented winger that isn't skilled enough to drive their own line.

You are not going to get a young C in a trade that is without warts with the assets we have.

There are none available in UFA. So it's either trying to find one via a cap swap or praying Yager somehow is one out of camp. (Which is a ridiculous concept IMO).

If I’m Dubas, out of the young or youngish players who may reportedly be available, I’d be trying hard to trade for Pinto, Necas, Perfetti, Holtz, maybe Ehlers…I’m not taking on PLD or Kot’s contracts…I don’t think Drury is available

I mean, I'd agree, I'd rather have Pinto or Perfetti than PLD or Kotkaniemi. The issue is those teams are going to be asking for blue chip prospects and / or comparable young roster players we do not have.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Robertson-Crosby-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Rakell
O'Connor-Drury-Puustinen

One of their 2nds to Toronto for Robertson's RFA rights followed with Smith (with retention if needed) to Carolina for Drury. Done, no need to take on any massive long-term contracts with huge risks while they're getting 2 good sub-25 year old players.

Bet on Crosby elevating Robertson into being the new Guentzel and rely on Drury to carry the 3rd line. Easy.

 

[SEALBound]

Kotkaniemi has been playing 12-14 minutes a night since coming to Carolina and has scored at 1.75 points per 60 rate.

That's good for 170th out of 434 forwards that played 1000+ 5v5 minutes in those three years.

Kotkaniemi has produced 77 points in that time at 5v5.

That's good for 160th out of 434 forwards that played 1000+ 5v5 minutes in those three years.

How is that not middle 6 production exactly?



Because Robertson and Kaliyev aren't skill sets that we need.

We need a young C that can help elevate minutes from Malkin and Sid. Not another offense oriented winger that isn't skilled enough to drive their own line.

You are not going to get a young C in a trade that is without warts with the assets we have.

There are none available in UFA. So it's either trying to find one via a cap swap or praying Yager somehow is one out of camp. (Which is a ridiculous concept IMO).



I mean, I'd agree, I'd rather have Pinto or Perfetti than PLD or Kotkaniemi. The issue is those teams are going to be asking for blue chip prospects and / or comparable young roster players we do not have.

Because KK was demoted to the 4th line and was fed less than 10min of ice time on most nights. He didn't even play center. He lost that job to Kuznetsov...

Since you're so high on stats, why not look at his stats...

Jesperi Kotkaniemi Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Jesperi Kotkaniemi. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

If you open it up to the entire year, you'll see he started in the top six getting 17-18 min a night and then it fell of BIG time. The majority of the year, he was getting less than 10min a game while on the 4th line. Why? Because that's what his level of play dictated.

Unless you want to try the argument "Rod Brind'Amour doesn't know what he's doing with the line up! Mike Sullivan would be much better at figuring it out and seeing the KK is a prime middle 6 center!!!"

Robertson-Crosby-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Rakell
O'Connor-Drury-Puustinen

One of their 2nds to Toronto for Robertson's RFA rights followed with Smith (with retention if needed) to Carolina for Drury. Done, no need to take on any massive long-term contracts with huge risks while they're getting 2 good sub-25 year old players.

Bet on Crosby elevating Robertson into being the new Guentzel and rely on Drury to carry the 3rd line. Easy.

I would be a'okay with that level of tweaking provided Pono, Koivunen, Poulin, and Yager get their chances as well. I'm not super convinced that Puustinen should be our long term 3RW. I think if you have injuries, sure. Opening night 100% healthy, I'm iffy. I see more Simon than Sheary.

 

[Gurglesons]

Because KK was demoted to the 4th line and was fed less than 10min of ice time on most nights. He didn't even play center. He lost that job to Kuznetsov...

Since you're so high on stats, why not look at his stats...

Jesperi Kotkaniemi Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Jesperi Kotkaniemi. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

If you open it up to the entire year, you'll see he started in the top six getting 17-18 min a night and then it fell of BIG time. The majority of the year, he was getting less than 10min a game while on the 4th line. Why? Because that's what his level of play dictated.

Unless you want to try the argument "Rod Brind'Amour doesn't know what he's doing with the line up! Mike Sullivan would be much better at figuring it out and seeing the KK is a prime middle 6 center!!!"

I don’t believe Rod Brind’Amour is a good coach and I think our system is a lot more friendly to a player like KK.

This is also the type of player I’ve been begging for us to acquire for literally 6 years. Sam Bennett, Pavel Zacha, etc. these top end draft picks that are not working out in some what stifling environments where they are asked to be big parts of their teams. Despite the age of Sid and Malkin, I think this is a much more friendly environment here for KK to blossom then Carolina.

 

[K Fleur]

Every single offseason this board picks some former high draft pick nothing player to latch onto.

Kotkaniemi blows.

 

[Andy99]

Kotkaniemi has been playing 12-14 minutes a night since coming to Carolina and has scored at 1.75 points per 60 rate.

That's good for 170th out of 434 forwards that played 1000+ 5v5 minutes in those three years.

Kotkaniemi has produced 77 points in that time at 5v5.

That's good for 160th out of 434 forwards that played 1000+ 5v5 minutes in those three years.

How is that not middle 6 production exactly?



Because Robertson and Kaliyev aren't skill sets that we need.

We need a young C that can help elevate minutes from Malkin and Sid. Not another offense oriented winger that isn't skilled enough to drive their own line.

You are not going to get a young C in a trade that is without warts with the assets we have.

There are none available in UFA. So it's either trying to find one via a cap swap or praying Yager somehow is one out of camp. (Which is a ridiculous concept IMO).



I mean, I'd agree, I'd rather have Pinto or Perfetti than PLD or Kotkaniemi. The issue is those teams are going to be asking for blue chip prospects and / or comparable young roster players we do not have.

I mean I’d see what they want and if we can make a deal before I’d go after some terrible contracts. As Sealbound said, if they’re buying out Kot, then try to sign him in FA

 

[K Fleur]

Points per 60 is only ever used to try and prove a player doesn’t suck.

 

[Gurglesons]

Points per 60 is only ever used to try and prove a player doesn’t suck.

I provided raw production which is better than his points per 60.

 

[K Fleur]

I provided raw production which is better than his points per 60.

It might be better, but it’s still shit.

 

[Gurglesons]

It might be better, but it’s still shit.

He would be considered a top six forward by the points if we say there are 31 * 6 top six forwards.

I dunno. I’m not trying to say he is a elite player, but he’s young, likely allows us to dump an older play, and has some upside still.

These are the type of risks smart teams take.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I just mostly do not give a shit about term because we're literally looking at just two or max three more years of false hope before hospice.

 

[Andy99]

Essentially, there is zero reason to pay Jarry…any journeyman goalie could give us the kind of goaltending we’re playing him $5.4M to provide lol…and we’re not making the playoffs again with him

https://x.com/i/web/status/1791857632245862446

 

[Empoleon8771]

I just mostly do not give a shit about term because we're literally looking at just two or max three more years of false hope before hospice.

The issue is bringing in shitty players with long term.

I'm fine with bringing in bad long-term deals, but at least have the players be actually good players. Go that route with Huberdeau if you want to go that route.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

This is my mindset behind acquiring Kotkaniemi in a cap swap with Smith.

It shaves off 250k and gives you a center that can actually fit in if Sid or Malkin goes down while also a player who projects in a bottom six role.

Same mindset as PLD if you can move out Graves or Jarry in the deal. Although, based on the comments from Blake, it doesn't seem like PLD will be moved.

Nichuskin and Stamkos are no goes for me. Nichuskin embodies too much risk. You're basically forced to start the season negative six million because you have to have that cap space open for when he returns.

Stamkos despite the raw stats fell off hard this year. I also imagine if he leaves Tampa he wants cash.



The other benefit of the deal lol. If it is an anchor, it's probably a good thing in a couple years lol.

While I like the idea of grabbing someone his age, I'm very leery about adding a center who projects to be used in a bottom 6 role who's only seen 60%+ OZ starts. Given Crosby and Malkin will be getting the bulk of the OZ starts, he'll likely get buried like Eller has been, and his cap hit is high enough that he'll have to do much better than Eller has to justify it. I don't see that happening over the next couple years.

I'd rather move Smith for a 2nd/3rd draft pick. He likely has positive value right now, and I don't think JK does.

 

[Gurglesons]

While I like the idea of grabbing someone his age, I'm very leery about adding a center who projects to be used in a bottom 6 role who's only seen 60%+ OZ starts. Given Crosby and Malkin will be getting the bulk of the OZ starts, he'll likely get buried like Eller has been, and his cap hit is high enough that he'll have to do much better than Eller has to justify it. I don't see that happening over the next couple years.

I'd rather move Smith for a 2nd/3rd draft pick. He likely has positive value right now, and I don't think JK does.

I highly doubt anyone gives us value now for Smith. At the deadline with retention maybe.

 

[K Fleur]

Smith you probably just gotta hope he bounces back and then love him at the deadline.

Contract year for him so he might.

 

[Kaptah]

Pulju looking promising with team Finland. 2 goals against Canada today.

 

[Gurglesons]

Smith you probably just gotta hope he bounces back and then love him at the deadline.

Contract year for him so he might.

I imagine he’s closer to being forced to retire than another deal tbh

 

[Sideline]

I imagine he’s closer to being forced to retire than another deal tbh

40 pts last year puts him at low end 2nd liner production. I don't see him getting a huge payday next summer, but he's hardly fringe NHLer level.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I imagine he’s closer to being forced to retire than another deal tbh

You're just full of monstrously stupid opinions today it seems.

 

[Empoleon8771]

"Kotkaniemi is middle-6 caliber because he has a 1.75 5v5 points/60 with the Hurricanes"

Hmm, I wonder what Smith was at last year

Oh. But yes, "closer to being forced to retire than get another deal" or something.

 

[Gurglesons]

40 pts last year puts him at low end 2nd liner production. I don't see him getting a huge payday next summer, but he's hardly fringe NHLer level.

34 year old winger. 37 forwards in the league last year played over 50 games at that age.

Reilly Smith taking a massive step back next year would be the least surprising thing ever.

You're just full of monstrously stupid opinions today it seems.

See above.