Salary Cap: Pens 2024 Summer Thread: "Thus, knocking us out of these superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow a non-playoff bound gap!"

[66-30-33]

Seravelli used to be like the most reliable source. Crazy how much he's regressed. Reminds me of Sullivan's decline.

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I don't mind Vellucci that much. Top 10 PK under his watch.
He works with the Forwards too. Got good seasons out of DOC, Puustinen, Eller, Rust, Sid, Jake. Even Carter was much better.
He might be good with the young guys next year.

So what does Quinn do? D and PP?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Delete

 

[OtherThingsILike]

I don't hate Laine as a player, but he's not really a fit here. The chance he might jell on a line with Geno isn't high enough to justify an $8.7M cap hit, and we really don't want that on the 3rd line.

 

[Zbynek]

I think Sid would get Laine and L2 would be Bunting-Malkin-Rust.

I don't mind the 8.7 mil cap hit if non-essentials like Smith/Acciari go the other way. The important thing here is not signing some inflated UFA contract for 7 years. There isn't any Laine level talent available on UFA anyway.

What's most exciting about Laine to me is maybe something actually changes on the PP. He can be the designated shooter.

 

[OnMyOwn]

Agreed. Laine would make sense on L1. Geno needs defensive forward support. Sid made Jake work and he’s terrible defensively.

 

[PensFutures]

Laine with Sid would last 2 periods.

 

[Andy99]

Laine with Sid would last 2 periods.

Yep, doesn’t play the give and go that Sid likes and isn’t smart enough…not quick enough either

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I'm like 90% sure that's the case, yeah.
We know he's doing the PP, as it was mentioned in the article. The D wasn't brought up.
Still, what are the alternatives? Vellucci or Sully handling the blue line? Unlikely. Sully doesn't like change. He simplifies his job as much as possible. In this case, Reirden fully replaced by Quinn.
Plus Quinn got that great year out of Karlsson, so I imagine there's incentive there to give him that role anyway.

Here's hoping Quinn is a better assistant than HC, cuz woof.

I thought it was the other way around? Quinn is for sure handling the D (he was a D when he played), and we presume he will handle the PP because that was what Reirden did.

I still think there could be someone on the outside joining the staff for the PP. There is a lot of available talent right now. Jay Woodcroft for one (Gulutzen runs the Edm PP but Woodcroft had a bird's eye view); Bruce Boudreau, although I doubt he is interested; Marc Savard, though the Leafs are apparently in on him; Adam Oates, no idea what he is up to this year; Todd Nelson, still coaching Hershey; and I will throw out a name: Chris Lazary, HC of the Saginaw Spirit. That team was very dynamic, especially on offense and in particular with their PP.

I am hopeful that Quinn can do wonders for Karlsson, but I want him to get EK65 back to being a point-per-game defenseman. I am less optimistic that Quinn is the answer to our PP woes.

 

[TimmyD]

I don’t hate the idea of taking a shot at Laine. But it needs to be at a reclamation project price. Like I would do Smith, Graves and a 2nd (paying to get out of the Graves contract) for Laine.

 

[Ugene Magic]

No to Laine. Just too much goin' on with him.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I thought it was the other way around? Quinn is for sure handling the D (he was a D when he played), and we presume he will handle the PP because that was what Reirden did.

I still think there could be someone on the outside joining the staff for the PP. There is a lot of available talent right now. Jay Woodcroft for one (Gulutzen runs the Edm PP but Woodcroft had a bird's eye view); Bruce Boudreau, although I doubt he is interested; Marc Savard, though the Leafs are apparently in on him; Adam Oates, no idea what he is up to this year; Todd Nelson, still coaching Hershey; and I will throw out a name: Chris Lazary, HC of the Saginaw Spirit. That team was very dynamic, especially on offense and in particular with their PP.

I am hopeful that Quinn can do wonders for Karlsson, but I want him to get EK65 back to being a point-per-game defenseman. I am less optimistic that Quinn is the answer to our PP woes.

You're right. It's confirmed he's in charge of the D group. Not sure why I thought it was the other way around. My apologies.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Here's an interesting proposal an Oilers fan threw out on the main boards: Campbell, Bourgault and a 2024 2nd for Rakell, with the Penguins immediately buying out Campbell. Bourgault hasn't lit the AHL on fire since turning pro (34 points in 62 games in his rookie year, 20 points in 55 games in his sophomore year), but he was a 2021 1st rounder that did really well in the QMJHL.

Basically, you're getting stuck with this buyout:

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

But getting a 2nd and a former 1st rounder for Rakell while also getting out of the remaining 4 years of Rakell's deal. It's basically the equivalent of the Penguins trading Rakell at $3 million for Bourgalt and a 2nd in terms of money.

 

[SEALBound]

DeBrusk-Sid-Rust
Laine-Malkin-Rakell
Bunting-Pono-DOC
Poulin-Eller-Acciari

Is what we should be aiming for if we are getting Laine. With that lineup, You have 6 top 6 wings that you can mix and match until you find a fit. And it doesn't have to be DeBrusk. That was just a "who's a capable LW". Could be a variety of mid-range wings. Whoever the next Rust or Rakell is.

Has Laine played much RW? I know he spent most of his time at LW and then played center a bit in Columbus. But what would be best is if he could play RW.

 

[SEALBound]

Here's an interesting proposal an Oilers fan threw out on the main boards: Campbell, Bourgault and a 2024 2nd for Rakell, with the Penguins immediately buying out Campbell. Bourgault hasn't lit the AHL on fire since turning pro (34 points in 62 games in his rookie year, 20 points in 55 games in his sophomore year), but he was a 2021 1st rounder that did really well in the QMJHL.

Basically, you're getting stuck with this buyout:

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

But getting a 2nd and a former 1st rounder for Rakell while also getting out of the remaining 4 years of Rakell's deal. It's basically the equivalent of the Penguins trading Rakell at $3 million for Bourgalt and a 2nd in terms of money.

That's a rough buyout on top of losing Rakell. I'm not totally convinced that Rakell or his contract are an issue. I get it's 4 years but he's being paid market value. In years 2 and 3, you're getting hit at $2.5mil+. Looking at all things equal, you're not getting Rakell performance from a $2.5mil player. We aren't getting that from Bourgault and the 2nd is a LATE 2nd. It means we have to go to FA and buy a replacement player.

If we are doing this, I want a better prospect than Bourgault otherwise I don't see it being worth our time and cap space to do it. If they want to add Raphael Lavoie, I think it's more in the ballpark. I was high on Lavoie during his draft year and I think he fits better with what we need to restock the system with. I would also take Broberg and kick the pick back to a 3rd. That might make more sense for us.

It would better if we knew how the likes of Yager, Koivunen, and Ponomarov would fare in the NHL for us. If you could backfill (with a reasonable amount of certainty) one of them into Rakell's spot, this would make more sense.

That all said, we could send out Jarry for a return, keep Campbell as the backup, and run three goalie - Neds, Blomqvist, Campbell. With the hope that Campbell rediscovers his game for us which isn't completely out of the question.

 

[Empoleon8771]

That's a rough buyout on top of losing Rakell. I'm not totally convinced that Rakell or his contract are an issue. I get it's 4 years but he's being paid market value. In years 2 and 3, you're getting hit at $2.5mil+. Looking at all things equal, you're not getting Rakell performance from a $2.5mil player. We aren't getting that from Bourgault and the 2nd is a LATE 2nd. It means we have to go to FA and buy a replacement player.

Getting out of Rakell is a positive because:

1. He doesn't fit with Malkin and trading him opens up both money and a roster spot to add a RW for Malkin.
2. You're probably not going to get value for Rakell in the future when trading him, at least not on the level of Bourgault and a 2nd.
3. The addition of Bourgault and a 2nd gives the Penguins more flexibility to trade for young players that could be available.

Is Rakell a "problem"? Not necessarily, but I also don't see him as a "solution" either.

 

[SEALBound]

Getting out of Rakell is a positive because:

1. He doesn't fit with Malkin and trading him opens up both money and a roster spot to add a RW for Malkin.
2. You're probably not going to get value for Rakell in the future when trading him, at least not on the level of Bourgault and a 2nd.
3. The addition of Bourgault and a 2nd gives the Penguins more flexibility to trade for young players that could be available.

Is Rakell a "problem"? Not necessarily, but I also don't see him as a "solution" either.

So I'm not saying that I disagree necessarily. Those are all valid counterpoints that I won't dispute, but I will question how significant they are relative to what's coming back.

Yes we get money for someone else but we have plenty of cap space already and we have to factor in the buyout hit. Granted it's $1.5mil for a couple years but in 2 and 3, it's $2.5mil. So a way to look at this is "Bourgault + 2nd for Rakell @50% (or 25% retained)" and I'm not convinced that we find a players in FA at a cost that makes that worth losing Rakell. Say it's DeBrusk (I use him because I think he's an example of the average top 6 wing who will get a 5mil deal for 5+ years). With $5mil on the player and $2.5mil in the buyout, we are paying $7.5mil. Are we getting that performance? And is the 2nd going to be worth the hassle? That's where I question it.

Using it as additional capital for acquiring other players - I would be okay with it all if Dubas has a deal already set up and this is a pass through. Making the trade and sitting isn't what Dubas should be doing here. If the balls are rolling and this is the domino, fine. If not, again, I think it needs to Lavoie so that if nothing else happens, you didn't just help Edmonton in a significant way. Campbell out, Rakell in for a bust and a late 2nd that will be meaningless to them is a clear win for them.

 

[Empoleon8771]

So I'm not saying that I disagree necessarily. Those are all valid counterpoints that I won't dispute, but I will question how significant they are relative to what's coming back.

Yes we get money for someone else but we have plenty of cap space already and we have to factor in the buyout hit. Granted it's $1.5mil for a couple years but in 2 and 3, it's $2.5mil. So a way to look at this is "Bourgault + 2nd for Rakell @50% (or 25% retained)" and I'm not convinced that we find a players in FA at a cost that makes that worth losing Rakell. Say it's DeBrusk (I use him because I think he's an example of the average top 6 wing who will get a 5mil deal for 5+ years). With $5mil on the player and $2.5mil in the buyout, we are paying $7.5mil. Are we getting that performance? And is the 2nd going to be worth the hassle? That's where I question it.

Using it as additional capital for acquiring other players - I would be okay with it all if Dubas has a deal already set up and this is a pass through. Making the trade and sitting isn't what Dubas should be doing here. If the balls are rolling and this is the domino, fine. If not, again, I think it needs to Lavoie so that if nothing else happens, you didn't just help Edmonton in a significant way. Campbell out, Rakell in for a bust and a late 2nd that will be meaningless to them is a clear win for them.

Is it really that much of a stretch? Trade a 2nd for Nick Robertson and play him with Malkin all next year, I'm not sure that he does worse than Rakell in that role.

Without a ton of PP time, Rakell will be sitting in that 40-50 point range over a full season. Solely looking at guys who are UFAs this year, 5 teams got that kind of production for less than $3 million last year (Domi with Leafs, Kane with the Wings, Sprong with the Wings, Duclair with the Lightning/Sharks and Foegele with the Oilers).

 

[SEALBound]

Mainboards thread about Atkinson - they are front heavy, light on the back end. Frost was in Torts doghouse for quite a little bit. Thoughts on POJ+Pono for Frost+Atkinson? Give them the cap space they need, we get the young 3C / fill-in 2C we need. We take on Atkinson but he might be serviceable. Someone we could send out at the TDL if there is interest.

Sans FA signings:

DOC-Sid-Rust
Bunt-Geno-Rakell
Atkinson-Frost-Puustinen/Poulin/Yager/etc
Acciari-Eller-Puljujarvi

Send Smith out or hell, keep him on the 3rd line and run Smith-Frost-Atkinson.

 

[Gurglesons]

love the idea behind both of these players. Wahlstrom and Sullivan tho...

 

[SEALBound]

Is it really that much of a stretch? Trade a 2nd for Nick Robertson and play him with Malkin all next year, I'm not sure that he does worse than Rakell in that role.

Without a ton of PP time, Rakell will be sitting in that 40-50 point range over a full season. Solely looking at guys who are UFAs this year, 5 teams got that kind of production for less than $3 million last year (Domi with Leafs, Kane with the Wings, Sprong with the Wings, Duclair with the Lightning/Sharks and Foegele with the Oilers).

In a vacuum though, I would do a 2nd for Robertson or sign any of those guys there. Sprong is available. As i Kunin, Beauvillier, Barabonov, or anyone you can get in the trade with the 2nd.

My hesitancy is...why are we taking on the buyout of Campbell and prospect struggling the AHL for the privilege to do this?

If that's Rakell's value, do to Seattle and say "Melanson + NYR 2nd for Rakell @ 75%" then sign Sprong. Or Utah and say "Raty + Florida's 2nd for Rakell". Then sign Barabanov. Or use either of the 2nds for Robertson.

I guess I'm just not seeing enough incentive to jump through the hoops only to help Edmonton. Again, if we switch to Lavoie where, if nothing else, we are getting a potential roster player, then this becomes palatable. Edmonton is not a team I want to help out for free or for little value coming back.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The more I look at how many players can give that 40-50 point range on cheap deals, the more I want to get out of Rakell's deal as soon as possible. Even if he's putting up 50 points a year and has a "fair" value contract, it is absurdly easy to get better value than the $5 million long-term that he makes.

In UFA this year, you can likely get that level of production for $3 million or less from any of JVR, Zucker, Tyler Johnson or Sprong, and I think it's an open question for whether guys like Mantha and Duclair can fall in that price range as well.

In a vacuum though, I would do a 2nd for Robertson or sign any of those guys there. Sprong is available. As i Kunin, Beauvillier, Barabonov, or anyone you can get in the trade with the 2nd.

My hesitancy is...why are we taking on the buyout of Campbell and prospect struggling the AHL for the privilege to do this?

If that's Rakell's value, do to Seattle and say "Melanson + NYR 2nd for Rakell @ 75%" then sign Sprong. Or Utah and say "Raty + Florida's 2nd for Rakell". Then sign Barabanov. Or use either of the 2nds for Robertson.

I guess I'm just not seeing enough incentive to jump through the hoops only to help Edmonton. Again, if we switch to Lavoie where, if nothing else, we are getting a potential roster player, then this becomes palatable. Edmonton is not a team I want to help out for free or for little value coming back.

Because I doubt you can move Rakell without significant retention or taking back another team's bad contract.

If they can do Rakell at $3 million for Bourgault and a 2nd, I'm totally fine with that as well. I just think that's about what would be required to move Rakell without taking any money back.

love the idea behind both of these players. Wahlstrom and Sullivan tho...

Rakell for Mangiapane as a base seems super reasonable to me on paper. Only question I'd have is whether Calgary wants those extra years or what they'd require to take on those extra years of Rakell.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

You're right. It's confirmed he's in charge of the D group. Not sure why I thought it was the other way around. My apologies.

No worries mate!

Here's an interesting proposal an Oilers fan threw out on the main boards: Campbell, Bourgault and a 2024 2nd for Rakell, with the Penguins immediately buying out Campbell. Bourgault hasn't lit the AHL on fire since turning pro (34 points in 62 games in his rookie year, 20 points in 55 games in his sophomore year), but he was a 2021 1st rounder that did really well in the QMJHL.

Basically, you're getting stuck with this buyout:

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

But getting a 2nd and a former 1st rounder for Rakell while also getting out of the remaining 4 years of Rakell's deal. It's basically the equivalent of the Penguins trading Rakell at $3 million for Bourgalt and a 2nd in terms of money.

I am going to say no to this as well. For me, not enough incentive to take on Campbell. I like Bourgault, but I want a future 1st.

AND, instead of Rakell, send Jarry to Edm and keep Campbell. Campbell is no more a dart throw than 45-50% of all NHL goaltenders in today's climate.

 

[SEALBound]

love the idea behind both of these players. Wahlstrom and Sullivan tho...

Honestly, I think both of these guys make sense for us. I'm high on Wahlmstrom through. I do genuinely believe there is untapped potential there. Him being an RFA though, I'm not sure how to value him unless he has arb rights or NYI are in "no qual" territory with him.

Mangy, I have no idea how to value. A Rakell swap would honestly make sense. As would a Smith swap. At least as bases. Either team could also potentially want POJ to add to their backends.

 

[Gurglesons]

Rakell for Mangiapane as a base seems super reasonable to me on paper. Only question I'd have is whether Calgary wants those extra years or what they'd require to take on those extra years of Rakell.

Is this because you are a Penguins fan lol?

Honestly, I think both of these guys make sense for us. I'm high on Wahlmstrom through. I do genuinely believe there is untapped potential there. Him being an RFA though, I'm not sure how to value him unless he has arb rights or NYI are in "no qual" territory with him.

Mangy, I have no idea how to value. A Rakell swap would honestly make sense. As would a Smith swap. At least as bases. Either team could also potentially want POJ to add to their backends.

Feels like Mangiapane is closer to costing us a 1st then being a bad contract swap.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Is this because you are a Penguins fan lol?

No, because Rakell and Mangiapane have basically identical production over the last 3 years.

It's a change of scenery swap for both of them.