Post-Game Talk: Penguins > Sharks

[Sidney the Kidney]

It is wild for years the team has been atrocious at holding on to leads and having horrible shifts after scoring a goal. All sorts of roster turnover in that time and Sully never gets blamed for issues that have existed for years.

And, those issues seem to be getting even worse.

Just shows how utterly incompetent the people who own the Pens are when it comes to hockey. Nobody with even rudimentary understanding of the game would keep Sullivan around after years of the above.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Just shows how utterly incompetent the people who own the Pens are when it comes to hockey. Nobody with even rudimentary understanding of the game would keep Sullivan around after years of the above.

"What do you do here exactly, Mike?"

"I'm da coach baby!"

"Sounds great, write up an extension for this man."

 

[HandshakeLine]

See, the coach doesn't actually do anything to effect the on ice product, which means that we really can't fire the coach and hire anyone else, because of reasons.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Is blowing 9 multi goal leads in 20 games when it has been an issue for years really a talent issue? Is getting caved in immediately after scoring a goal routinely a talent issue?

No, the Penguins don't have a good roster, but a competent coach could absolutely coach them to a low playoff seed. It isn't like the other middling teams competing for the lower-tier playoff seeds are flush with stars.

Yeah, I've been this board's most ardent Sullivan defender, but the recurring blown leads is all on the coach. The only explanation for an issue like that is that there is a disconnect between the coaching staff and the players on something, and that means it's entirely on the coaching staff to fix that problem.

The fact that it has not only happened this often this year but has been a recurring issue for a couple of years is pretty damning for Sullivan.

At this point, the only reason he's around has to be because of the core and they don't want a coaching change this late in their careers.

 

[Andy99]

Yeah, I've been this board's most ardent Sullivan defender, but the recurring blown leads is all on the coach. The only explanation for an issue like that is that there is a disconnect between the coaching staff and the players on something, and that means it's entirely on the coaching staff to fix that problem.

The fact that it has not only happened this often this year but has been a recurring issue for a couple of years is pretty damning for Sullivan.

At this point, the only reason he's around has to be because of the core and they don't want a coaching change this late in their careers.

I think that’s partly why he’s here, but it’s Dubas’ job to override them and explain that not embarrassing the organization is more important than them adapting to a new coach lol

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

This team's so terrified of even marginally upsetting Crosby that they'll tank a decade of his career so they don't even risk making him mad by firing a coach he's comfortable with.

Absolute f***ing losers, man. Hilariously unlikable.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I think that’s partly why he’s here, but it’s Dubas’ job to override them and explain that not embarrassing the organization is more important than them adapting to a new coach lol

I think Dubas is attached to the core and wants to keep them happy because he thinks they can help the transition to the next era.

There is some logic in having young players exposed to the work ethic of three Hall of Famers, especially if the next step is to take one or two big swings in free agency in the summer.

Rantanen and Marner could very well end up going to free agency. So are Bennett and Ekblad.

Pens have retention spots opening up next year where they could retain to move Jarry, Graves, and Karlsson. You move Pettersson at the deadline. If Rakell is still playing well, his contract is a lot more moveable at the deadline or over the summer. Rust's NMC expires on July 1, as does Bunting's.

It's a tricky need to thread and could backfire immensely. But with the cap going up potentially even more than anticipated and some of the handcuffs coming off, Dubas will have more flexibility.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Should probably strip it down to studs and bolts and get some prospects that matter if you want your next generation of building blocks to learn from the dudes that are near 40 tbh. But I'm not a Kyle, though I do wear glasses.

 

[Andy99]

I think Dubas is attached to the core and wants to keep them happy because he thinks they can help the transition to the next era.

There is some logic in having young players exposed to the work ethic of three Hall of Famers, especially if the next step is to take one or two big swings in free agency in the summer.

Rantanen and Marner could very well end up going to free agency. So are Bennett and Ekblad.

Pens have retention spots opening up next year where they could retain to move Jarry, Graves, and Karlsson. You move Pettersson at the deadline. If Rakell is still playing well, his contract is a lot more moveable at the deadline or over the summer. Rust's NMC expires on July 1, as does Bunting's.

It's a tricky need to thread and could backfire immensely. But with the cap going up potentially even more than anticipated and some of the handcuffs coming off, Dubas will have more flexibility.

Yeah but his first job is to the organization and keeping fans in the seats…Sullivan is negatively affecting that…tell Sid and discuss it with him…I’m sure he’ll see that’s for the best because this coach is not helping put the team in the best position…I’m sure sees this…can’t put comfort over that…

 

[AuroraBorealis]

When are people going to realize the team has gotten remarkably worse year after year. To hinge the team's plight as highly ranked on the HC's shoulders is just blowing smoke to blow smoke.

There's not much anyone can do with this lack of talent. Dubas didn’t even replace Jake let alone add any real talent to the team to mitigate the ever loss of top talent this team once had. That's without bringing up the advanced age the core is.

The coach goes as far as the roster allows for.

Oh please. Look around the league at coaches doing more with less.
Seattle is over .500. Name me one star on their team.
The Ducks have a higher P%. They have 25 mil in cap space.
Utah is .500. Philadelphia is .500. Calgary is .583.

Stop blaming lack of talent for 9 2+ goal blown leads in 20 games. That's mentality. That's failed system work. That's coaching.
Even Wilkes would win in regulation against the Sharks with a 3-goal lead with 28 minutes left.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Yeah but his first job is to the organization and keeping fans in the seats…Sullivan is negatively affecting that…tell Sid and discuss it with him…I’m sure he’ll see that’s for the best because this coach is not helping put the team in the best position…I’m sure sees this…can’t put comfort over that…

Keeping fans in the seats is not his first job. It's a byproduct of winning. So his first job is to construct a consistent winning team.

Any GM/POHO worth their salt would have told FSG during the interview process that the path back to consistent winning may include a few down years or some early inconsistency as the roster is reshaped. Retaining 87, 71, and 58 helps to mitigate poor attendance because casual fans will still come out to see them.

I know everyone is hoping attendance will force FSG/Dubas to make a move on Sullivan, but it really won't. It's likely been factored into the process. And yeah, Wednesday against Detroit was fairly empty, but last night against San Jose was over capacity. The Fleury game was over capacity.

As an ownership group, you can weather those moments if you believe that your hockey operations staff has a solid long-term plan. It's when you stop believing in that plan - or the hits are harder than anticipated - that changes happen, and the Penguins aren't there yet.

Mike Sullivan will not be fired because of attendance. He will be fired if Dubas believes he's lost the core or that the Penguins are not where they should be because of coaching.

 

[Andy99]

Keeping fans in the seats is not his first job. It's a byproduct of winning. So his first job is to construct a consistent winning team.

Any GM/POHO worth their salt would have told FSG during the interview process that the path back to consistent winning may include a few down years or some early inconsistency as the roster is reshaped. Retaining 87, 71, and 58 helps to mitigate poor attendance because casual fans will still come out to see them.

I know everyone is hoping attendance will force FSG/Dubas to make a move on Sullivan, but it really won't. It's likely been factored into the process. And yeah, Wednesday against Detroit was fairly empty, but last night against San Jose was over capacity. The Fleury game was over capacity.

As an ownership group, you can weather those moments if you believe that your hockey operations staff has a solid long-term plan. It's when you stop believing in that plan - or the hits are harder than anticipated - that changes happen, and the Penguins aren't there yet.

Mike Sullivan will not be fired because of attendance. He will be fired if Dubas believes he's lost the core or that the Penguins are not where they should be because of coaching.

Probably but the team certainly isn’t where it should be due to Sullivan, so whether he’s lost the core shouldn’t matter…too bad if they like Sullivan…he’s not effective coach

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Again, if the core (namely Sid) is the reason Sullivan cannot be fired, welllllll, maybe f*** the core. They need to be made uncomfortable if they're comfortable with a steep and steady decline over the course of 7 years and counting. /shrug

But no, no. We must never rock the board, or Sid might frown. Gimme a break. Fire the loser coach and let Sid pout for 3 days or whatever it takes him to get over it.

This team deserves this miserable, slow rot of death, man.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Probably but the team certainly isn’t where it should be due to Sullivan, so whether he’s lost the core shouldn’t matter…too bad if they like Sullivan…he’s not effective coach

Or maybe they are.

Did anyone really expect this to be a playoff team? Ignore any lip service before the season. When you looked at this roster, did it scream playoffs?

To me, this always felt like a team that would need a number of things to go right to make the playoffs, starting with goaltending and defense. No surprise, those two things have decidedly not gone right. What else would you expect when you have a headcase in Jarry and a journeyman in Ned playing in front of two historically bad offensive defensemen in Letang and Karlsson, a guy who was one of the worst defensemen in the NHL last year in Graves, and a mediocre defender in Gryzleck? Not to mention the usual space cadet antics of several forwards.

Frankly, the Penguins are who we thought they'd be. Some flashes but ultimately a pretty mediocre team that will likely land a top 10 draft pick.

 

[Andy99]

Or maybe they are.

Did anyone really expect this to be a playoff team? Ignore any lip service before the season. When you looked at this roster, did it scream playoffs?

To me, this always felt like a team that would need a number of things to go right to make the playoffs, starting with goaltending and defense. No surprise, those two things have decidedly not gone right. What else would you expect when you have a headcase in Jarry and a journeyman in Ned playing in front of two historically bad offensive defensemen in Letang and Karlsson, a guy who was one of the worst defensemen in the NHL last year in Graves, and a mediocre defender in Gryzleck? Not to mention the usual space cadet antics of several forwards.

Frankly, the Penguins are who we thought they'd be. Some flashes but ultimately a pretty mediocre team that will likely land a top 10 draft pick.

No, they’re worse than mediocre…I think people expected them to be a borderline PO team, not fourth worst in the East and a bottom five team by points %…

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

No, they’re worse than mediocre…I think people expected them to be a borderline PO team, not fourth worst in the East and a bottom five team by points %…

This team's been a borderline playoff team for several years, and now they're down a Jake Guentzel with nothing in the way of a replacement. Not even a partial one. Their best players are near 40 years old.

Of course this team's trash, dude. It's a blessing if the wheels really fall off and they tumble to a top-5 pick this year. Far, faaaaaar better than this no man's land bullshit they've been doing the past two seasons.

(This is not a defense of Mike Sullivan.)

 

[Pancakes]

Mike Sullivan will not be fired because of attendance. He will be fired if Dubas believes he's lost the core or that the Penguins are not where they should be because of coaching.

My issue is they have nothing to lose by firing Sullivan. They're already bad. Real bad. Maybe a new coach could guide them on a run that makes the playoffs a possibility. Or maybe a new coach does nothing and/or makes them worse.

But what do they have to lose? They have absolutely nothing to lose unless you're of the opinion that Mike Sullivan is the best coach to guide young players and we have a long history of his coaching style to know that that is not the case.

Now if the team wants to tank and/or doesn't care about making the playoffs, then by all means keep Sullivan. But if the goal is "make the playoffs" then it's obvious that Sullivan isn't the guy.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

No, they’re worse than mediocre…I think people expected them to be a borderline PO team, not fourth worst in the East and a bottom five team by points %…

It's still early and they're two points out of a playoff spot. There has been a ton of parity in the NHL to start this year.

I think there has been some over reaction to the start because of how bad some of the losses have been.

But they were only 10-10-0 through 20 games last year. 7-10-3 isn't much of a difference.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Should probably strip it down to studs and bolts and get some prospects that matter if you want your next generation of building blocks to learn from the dudes that are near 40 tbh. But I'm not a Kyle, though I do wear glasses.

I'm a bit skeptical of this since we blew our best chance to get a windfall when we gave up value on the Jake trade to get Bunting, who looks awful with this team as of late and is probably not going to fetch much on the trade market now.

In principle, that's what Dubas should be doing, but honestly, how are you going to get value for this squad? Besides taking picks in like 2030, like we love to do.

My issue is they have nothing to lose by firing Sullivan. They're already bad. Real bad. Maybe a new coach could guide them on a run that makes the playoffs a possibility. Or maybe a new coach does nothing and/or makes them worse.

But what do they have to lose? They have absolutely nothing to lose unless you're of the opinion that Mike Sullivan is the best coach to guide young players and we have a long history of his coaching style to know that that is not the case.

Now if the team wants to tank and/or doesn't care about making the playoffs, then by all means keep Sullivan. But if the goal is "make the playoffs" then it's obvious that Sullivan isn't the guy.

I really don't know what the purpose for keeping Sullivan is. Even if Sid is adamant that he plays for Sully and no one else (which seems really out of character for Sid), you still fire the coach if the team looks awful by Christmas.

 

[metalan2]

Sportsnet Pittsburgh is showing the 2nd round 1996 playoffs vs the Rangers.

I forgot how truly awful Steigerwald was. The amount of shit talking Kovalev by him, lol what a wanker. "Kovalev never passes" and Lange is trying to say he does but Steigy keeps going off about it. 4 seasons before AK27 becomes a Pen.

Messier with that signature move of his, elbowing players. Neil Wilkinson lol.

I would love a giant homer like Steigy back.

 

[SEALBound]

Shootout winner against the Sharks! We are sooooo back, baby!

 

[HandshakeLine]

Back in the 8th circle of hell, yes.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'm a bit skeptical of this since we blew our best chance to get a windfall when we gave up value on the Jake trade to get Bunting, who looks awful with this team as of late and is probably not going to fetch much on the trade market now.

In principle, that's what Dubas should be doing, but honestly, how are you going to get value for this squad? Besides taking picks in like 2030, like we love to do.


I really don't know what the purpose for keeping Sullivan is. Even if Sid is adamant that he plays for Sully and no one else (which seems really out of character for Sid), you still fire the coach if the team looks awful by Christmas.

Oh I don't mean getting picks/prospects/roster players back. I mean eliminating just about anybody who can contribute to a win here or there so this team doesn't do what it did last season and end up with its signature "mad scramble at the end in a vain attempt to get into the WC discussion" which only ends up getting them like the 14th overall pick.

I mean tanking, so this team can land two or three top-5 picks and hopefully luck into making the correct ones while the kids can still come in and learn from Sid or Geno for a year or two before those two retire. You remove Petts, DOC and Rakell this season by the TDL. You remove Rust, Bunting and EK during the off-season. You've got a good shot at being in the running for McKenna and Dupont, two guys who are a notable step above recent dudes like Celebrini or Salfkovsky or Power and more in line with guys who could end up in that superstar echelon.

I dunno man I'm just pissing in the wind here. Screaming into the void, knowing full well this team's too stupid and cowardly to pick an avenue. This team's been rudderless since JR decided to be a nutbag after the B2Bs, Hextall and Dubas have been awful GMs, and watching Sullivan's descent into egomania torpedoing the team for close to a decade is some sour business.

 

[metalan2]

My issue is they have nothing to lose by firing Sullivan. They're already bad. Real bad. Maybe a new coach could guide them on a run that makes the playoffs a possibility. Or maybe a new coach does nothing and/or makes them worse.

But what do they have to lose? They have absolutely nothing to lose unless you're of the opinion that Mike Sullivan is the best coach to guide young players and we have a long history of his coaching style to know that that is not the case.

Now if the team wants to tank and/or doesn't care about making the playoffs, then by all means keep Sullivan. But if the goal is "make the playoffs" then it's obvious that Sullivan isn't the guy.

Even if they want to tank, Sullivan isn't your guy. He will f*** that too and finish like 19th somehow.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I would love a giant homer like Steigy back.

I don't know if I can handle that now, I want to blow my ear drums out listening to Army, Rupp and the other boot lickers