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Salary Cap: Penguins salary cap and line up thread

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Trade said:
It’s expected from you. Your Malkin takes have been horrible for years.

It’s funnier seeing it from the people who would willingly rather have some 1.5 mil plug and Trochek at 6.5-7 mil over Geno.
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Is his thing a "take" or more like a "statistic?"
 
6-8M for 2-3 years is where most of the discussion fell before the season, and that IMO is the max you pay. Beyond 8, we're not talking about a pay cut any more and while I have a substantially more optimistic outlook than *cough* some here, we can't get close to 9-9.5 again because we are not getting that player from 2013. No idea where the contract negotiations are but I have to believe the Pens are offering somewhere in the mid-high 7s. In which case Malkin should be pleased with that offer as long as it's the term he wants. If they are below 7, that's a yikes from me.

Good to see the usual suspects ranting about legacy when most people's justification for keeping the core together is that collectively they are still better than anything we'd get for them.
 
Trade said:
You really gonna act like him posting 5-on-5 stats is the only Geno-related thing he’s posted?

Shameful.
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I'm not acting like that. But you can quote those other things.

The 5-on-5 argument is like his best one he's ever had for Geno. Do yourself a favor and refute it. Otherwise it's textbook ad-hominem. Pixies did a pretty good counter (mostly when he gave up on making his own arguments and said a smart guy made a model that people put money on that likes Malkin) - do that.
 
Trade said:
It’s expected from you. Your Malkin takes have been horrible for years.

It’s funnier seeing it from the people who would willingly rather have some 1.5 mil plug and Trochek at 6.5-7 mil over Geno.
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I think there's a legitimate debate for this. The issue is that it's risky, Trocheck could be a 75 point 1C or he can just be a 55 point 2C. He has multiple season of pacing for both of those.

I wouldn't pay Trocheck $7 million over Malkin at $8 million, because Trocheck would also be overpaid at that point. But Trocheck at $6 million vs Malkin at $8 million? There are arguments for it.
 
Trade said:
It’s expected from you. Your Malkin takes have been horrible for years.

It’s funnier seeing it from the people who would willingly rather have some 1.5 mil plug and Trochek at 6.5-7 mil over Geno.
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You’re basing an opinion of what #71 was not what he is. I’d much rather have a guy on the Trochek level.

His 5 on 5 stats are facts not takes. Reality. Wake up
 
DocEmrickSkitters said:
I'm not acting like that. But you can quote those other things.

The 5-on-5 argument is like his best one he's ever had for Geno. Do yourself a favor and refute it. Otherwise it's textbook ad-hominem. Pixies did a pretty good counter (mostly when he gave up on making his own arguments and said a smart guy made a model that people put money on that likes Malkin) - do that.
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I don’t think I will. It was pretty clear I was referring to their collective of takes over the years, and not just the 5-on-5 stats.
 
The entire discussion hinges on a couple things; Whether you think this team has a realistic, genuine shot at the Cup during Geno's next contract, and whether you think Geno is still an elite player when he's healthy. I don't, for either factor. Window's closed, and Geno's as likely (or more so) to look like a dude really struggling as he is to look like a bonafide game-changing 1C/2C on any given night. You also can't ignore the fact that he's pretty much a lock to miss 25ish games a season, and that's not getting better with age, and wear and tear piling up.

As soon as you remove the whole "I've watched him for like 18 years and am too emotionally attached" thing, it's not really a smart idea to keep Geno around at all costs. If he's re-signed--which, for the record, I'd be absolutely astonished if he wasn't--it'll be a decision made by the team driven heavily on ~legacy~ and jersey/ticket sales. Not because he's worth the $8 million+ he's probably going to ask for, and get.
 
Trade said:
I’m hoping for 7x3, give or take a few 100k. The 8.5 in my earlier post is the most I could see him potentially asking for, but I doubt it.
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I would be happy with 6.5x3 and would be fine with 7x3, but once you start going higher, I would start getting iffy.

I wouldn't start saying no until he gets over $8 million, but if he's at like $7.75 million, I would probably be a bit uncomfortable.
 
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Still going with my initial gut feeling of Geno @ $8 million x 3 and Letang at $8.5 million x 3. Less confident about Letang. Think he and his camp are kind of stalling while they wait to see how the playoffs play out before deciding to re-sign or test FA. Think Geno's a lifer though, for better or worse.
 
Datysuk's numbers the year before he retired (limited 5 on 5)

Age 37
Games 66
5 on 5 Goals 8
5 on 5 Assists 21


and then he was like "I'm no good anymore this is embarrassing I quit."

These numbers are closer to Malkins numbers now not in 2+ years. And Detroit still hasn't rebuilt.


Don't sign that contract Pittsburgh.
 
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An extra $1M or 1.5M for Malkin (if we paid him 8 or 8.5) is the difference in us re-signing Letang + Rust or one of them walking.

People get flippant with numbers (i.e. so what if he wants an extra million) but we’re a cap ceiling team in a flat cap world that is trying to improve, never mind just staying as good as we’ve been on average over the course of this season, if we have any hopes of beating FLA, TOR, TB, NYR, etc.

If we lose Letang and replace him with essentially no one, or lose Rust and think “oh we’ll just re-sign Rakell and put Puustinen on the big club”, we’re not making the playoffs next year.
 
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jmelm said:
Aside from superstition, it’s a fair number and it’s the right number for Malkin to accept if he wants to give the team the best chance to have a strong team and sign/retain other players to be as competitive as possible.
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It's not a fair number if Letang is going to be at 8-8.5M. That's the problem.
 
Gurglesons said:
Hertl is not much better than Malkin and I doubt you or Empo have watched him play more than a game this year.

Injuries are also an absolute asinine defense of Hertl over Malkin.
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The primary and most legitimate “defense” if we’re looking at Malkin vs Zibanejad or Hertl is age. They are 7-8 years younger.

Malkin is worth 8.5 on a one year deal, but at his age I’d be concerned about giving him that number in a multi-year deal given how tight we are to the cap.

And durability is a factor. It may not be fair to the player when looking at a single player in a vacuum and in their mind they are worth what they think they are. But in the team’s mind, if they’re not confident that a player will be, they’ll be reluctant to go as high or as long. Fair or not, that’s just the reality they’re looking at.
 
Pittsburgh1776 said:
It's not a fair number if Letang is going to be at 8-8.5M. That's the problem.
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I have never been supportive of paying Letang 8 or 8.5M. I have consistently said that I would go longer on term to bring the AAV down because I trust, with Letang’s insane level of fitness, that he can still be a great player for most or all of a 4 or 5 year deal. Sure, he’ll decline a little by the end but if it’s a gradual decline and the cap will go up substantially in a couple of years, I’m comfortable with that.

I’m not comfortable going long term on Malkin. I’d like to go year by year at this point, but if we’re going 2 or 3 years, the number for me is 7.1 or not much more than that.

The number I’d want for Letang is either 4 x 7.25 or 5 x 7.0. If we went 5 years with Letang and made it 80% signing bonus (no escrow) and as front loaded as possible, I wonder if we could actually get him under 7 on AAV, like 6.7-6.8 range.

Per Seravalli, Letang’s “ask” was 5 x 7.X (we don’t know if that X is a 2 or 5 or 7). So Letang never asked for 5 years x 8 or 8.5.

Also, Geno has said/implied he would take a hometown discount, so “fair” or not, that’s what he’s implied and that’s why a lot of us think 7.1 is a perfect number for a few reasons.
 
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In closing we should not resign #71. He's no longer a 2nd line center at 5 on 5. He hurts more than he helps. That combined with his injury history and his selfish penalties and suspensions I would run from his next contract.

It would be better to see the downfall before its too late.
 
I would re-sign Geno at any number. I don’t want to see him in another jersey.

All Geno has done is happily play second fiddle to the only center better than him in his generation. Dude cares a lot and has constantly had to put up with made up trade stuff, weird dislike from some media/fans, and being painted as “enigmatic Russian” when he’s proven to be a team guy over and over.

Yeah I’m a fan of the Pens first but I would be pissed if he walks for any reason but his own choice.
 
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