Salary Cap: Penguins salary cap and line up thread

[ronduguayshair]

I am done with this discussion for now but I find it completely hypocritical that posters who bash the coach for not changing want to keep the same players around when it’s so obvious there needs to be major shakeups with the lineup.

 

[Gurglesons]

I am done with this discussion for now but I find it completely hypocritical that posters who bash the coach for not changing want to keep the same players around when it’s so obvious there needs to be major shakeups with the lineup.

Malkin's brought 3 cups here and multiple other trophies.

You get a pass when you are a stud like that.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Now I understand how anyone who criticizes Taylor Swift's music on the internet gets death threats from 14 year old girls

You engage in discussions with 14 year old girls about Taylor Swift?

 

[ChaosAgent]

You engage in discussions with 14 year old girls about Taylor Swift?

Hah. Just saying what the "Reputation" is. Like she says mean things about Jake Gyllenhall, he gets death threats.

For the record I loved her recent two albums
She has had a far better post COVID career than Geno, Sully and ze Pens.

 

[jmelm]

Meier IMO is different than the other 2 given his age.

He’s 3 months younger than Fiala, but that wasn’t my point. My point is that the Pens lack the assets to put together the best offers for any of the top tier players that may be available via trade.

 

[jmelm]

You forget Sully likes to sign 3 turds every summer that will play 50-60 games before getting benched. Please leave at least three spots open for the last chance retreads we sign.

And lol at DOC as 2C. Sully doesn’t trust him to play on the fourth line this season, why will he suddenly play him at 2C?

1) I was responding to a post about *IF* we either let Malkin walk or moved him to the wing, and did not end up signing a C replacement. I said DOC would end up becoming our 2C any default, whether he’s ready or not. I wasn’t advocating this course of action as ideal.

2) We were also talking in the context of Sullivan NOT being the coach of this team next year. But even if he were to be, he’s not the GM and after the failure to advance the last few years, Burke & Hextall are not going to defer to Sullivan on personnel decisions.

 

[Gurglesons]

He’s 3 months younger than Fiala, but that wasn’t my point. My point is that the Pens lack the assets to put together the best offers for any of the top tier players that may be available via trade.

I don’t believe this. Look at what Eichel and Karlsson have gone for.

Crazy that Fiala is that young. He’s tiny tho.

 

[PensPlz]

I am done with this discussion for now but I find it completely hypocritical that posters who bash the coach for not changing want to keep the same players around when it’s so obvious there needs to be major shakeups with the lineup.

Coach needs to be able to adapt his style for the roster he is given. Sullivan has NEVER done that. It's been speed speed speed every year since he got here. And it worked, at first.

If Sullivan is given an older, heavier team then he needs to adapt. He needs to coach where we clog up the neutral zone, picks out spots, create turnovers, and score off the rush. That should be our bread and butter with this team right now.

Except it's not. He refuses to play that way. He's out there telling this team to out-skate the f***ing Edmonton Oilers and they look ridiculous. RIDICULOUS.

Don't get me wrong. Sullivan is a good coach. He's a one dimensial coach, but a good coach. If Sullivan was the head coach of the New York Rangers right now then they would be my pick for the Cup. No question. But he's not their coach. He's the 2022 Penguins' coach. And he sucks. SUUUUUCKS.

So if the older guys are coming back then he's got to go. Sullivan gots to go.

 

[ronduguayshair]

Malkin's brought 3 cups here and multiple other trophies.

You get a pass when you are a stud like that.

Says the guy who wants to turn us into tge Detroit red wings and doesn’t invest in season tickets.

Easy for you to say behind your keyboard.

 

[Gurglesons]

Says the guy who wants to turn us into tge Detroit red wings and doesn’t invest in season tickets.

Easy for you to say behind your keyboard.

Detroit started sucking when they lost their Russian center too.

 

[jmelm]

I don’t believe this. Look at what Eichel and Karlsson have gone for.

Crazy that Fiala is that young. He’s tiny tho.

Wha??? Erik Karlsson is who you are talking about?

Re Eichel: because of his long term $10M contract and the IMMENSE health risks with this player (who wanted a procedure many teams weren't even comfortable with), and trying to navigate that in-season in a flat cap environment, there would be FAR fewer teams in on Eichel (only 3 or 4 really serious ones at most) than a perfectly healthy, less expensive than $10M Timo Meier.

But even aside from those particular circumstances with Eichel, BUF got a 1st + Krebs + Tuch. We don't have a prospect in our system who is anywhere close to as valuable & highly regarded as Krebs was. Poulin + Legare + P.O. Joseph isn't as valuable as Krebs was/is by himself. We also don't have a roster player anywhere near the quality of Alex Tuch, who was also on a cost-controlled great value contract (unless you want to trade Guentzel).

So I fail to see the parallels here or what you could possibly be inferring.

 

[Gurglesons]

Wha??? Erik Karlsson is who you are talking about?

Re Eichel: because of his long term $10M contract and the IMMENSE health risks with this player (who wanted a procedure many teams weren't even comfortable with), and trying to navigate that in-season in a flat cap environment, there would be FAR fewer teams in on Eichel (only 3 or 4 really serious ones at most) than a perfectly healthy, less expensive than $10M Timo Meier.

But even aside from those particular circumstances with Eichel, BUF got a 1st + Krebs + Tuch. We don't have a prospect in our system who is anywhere close to as valuable & highly regarded as Krebs was. Poulin + Legare + P.O. Joseph isn't as valuable as Krebs was/is by himself. We also don't have a roster player anywhere near the quality of Alex Tuch, who was also on a cost-controlled great value contract (unless you want to trade Guentzel).

So I fail to see the parallels here or what you could possibly be inferring.

Eichel is also not a winger. And I disagree with your assessment of Krebs as a prospect.

Mark Stone went for a 2nd and Brannstrom.

Reinhart a 2nd and Levi.

 

[jmelm]

Eichel is also not a winger. And I disagree with your assessment of Krebs as a prospect.

Mark Stone went for a 2nd and Brannstrom.

Reinhart a 2nd and Levi.

I'm starting to understand that you're either fundamentally unserious (or joking), or you just genuinely don't know much about prospects around the NHL, at least perhaps outside of the Penguins. And hey, if it's the latter, that's cool and my misjudgement of assuming the message boards of a site that was once called Hockey's Future, and was filled with content on NHL prospects, does not necessarily mean that all its regular users are well informed of same.

Let's look at a few key differences of those players mentioned, at the time of their trades:

Devon Levi -- One of the top 3 goalie prospects on the planet. Named best goaltender at the WJC tournament, and also to its all-star team. Was selected to to Team Canada's men's Olympic roster. In short, absolute top tier blue-chip stud prospect.

Erik Brannstrom -- Considered one of the very best Dmen prospects/prospects overall in hockey. Named to the WJC tournament all-star team, where he was the captain of Sweden. In short, clear cut blue-chip stud prospect.

Peyton Krebs -- Top tier prospect who would have gone top 10 of the 2019 draft were it not for an achilles injury right before the draft that made him fall. First line forward for team Canada at the WJCs and finished tied for 7th overall in scoring in the tournament. Blue chip prospect.

Sam Poulin -- Not even on team Canada WJC's shortlist in either of his 2 years post draft. Not on the short list nor made Canadian Olympic team, unlike Levi. Universally not considered one of the top 50 prospects in the entire NHL. Very likely outside of the top 75 frankly. In short, NOT a blue chip prospect at all.

But then again, Wyatt Johnson -- widely considered one of the 3 best drafted Centre prospects in the entire league, along with Beniers and McTavish -- you lumpd him in as "just another lottery ticket" with a bunch of other lower ranked/lower drafted prospects the other day.

So either you don't have the prospect knowledge, or you don't take seriously the profession and role of scouting in hockey. Because by that logic, Poulin is just another lottery ticket = to Wyatt Johnson or = to Devon Levi or = Krebs or = to virtually any other prospect.

By that same logic, the Penguins group of lottery tickets are = to Dallas' group, or = Los Angeles group or = Buffalo's group, etc.

It's a free country and you're certainly welcome to whatever opinion you want to hold; you just may find that a little self-awareness awareness goes a long way, if that's your mindset or knowledge base when choosing to post suggestions on a hockey message board.

But hey, don't take my word for it -- I would really look forward to seeing what the responses are in the trade rumours forum when you propose Timo Meier for Sam Poulin + a 2nd round pick or whatever, lol.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm starting to understand that you're either fundamentally unserious (or joking), or you just genuinely don't know much about prospects around the NHL, at least perhaps outside of the Penguins. And hey, if it's the latter, that's cool and my misjudgement of assuming the message boards of a site that was once called Hockey's Future, and was filled with content on NHL prospects, does not necessarily mean that all its regular users are well informed of same.

Let's look at a few key differences of those players mentioned, at the time of their trades:

Devon Levi -- One of the top 3 goalie prospects on the planet. Named best goaltender at the WJC tournament, and also to its all-star team. Was selected to to Team Canada's men's Olympic roster. In short, absolute top tier blue-chip stud prospect.

Erik Brannstrom -- Considered one of the very best Dmen prospects/prospects overall in hockey. Named to the WJC tournament all-star team, where he was the captain of Sweden. In short, clear cut blue-chip stud prospect.

Peyton Krebs -- Top tier prospect who would have gone top 10 of the 2019 draft were it not for an achilles injury right before the draft that made him fall. First line forward for team Canada at the WJCs and finished tied for 7th overall in scoring in the tournament. Blue chip prospect.

Sam Poulin -- Not even on team Canada WJC's shortlist in either of his 2 years post draft. Not on the short list nor made Canadian Olympic team, unlike Levi. Universally not considered one of the top 50 prospects in the entire NHL. Very likely outside of the top 75 frankly. In short, NOT a blue chip prospect at all.

But then again, Wyatt Johnson -- widely considered one of the 3 best drafted Centre prospects in the entire league, along with Beniers and McTavish -- you lumpd him in as "just another lottery ticket" with a bunch of other lower ranked/lower drafted prospects the other day.

So either you don't have the prospect knowledge, or you don't take seriously the profession and role of scouting in hockey. Because by that logic, Poulin is just another lottery ticket = to Wyatt Johnson or = to Devon Levi or = Krebs or = to virtually any other prospect.

By that same logic, the Penguins group of lottery tickets are = to Dallas' group, or = Los Angeles group or = Buffalo's group, etc.

It's a free country and you're certainly welcome to whatever opinion you want to hold; you just may find that a little self-awareness awareness goes a long way, if that's your mindset or knowledge base when choosing to post suggestions on a hockey message board.

But hey, don't take my word for it -- I would really look forward to seeing what the responses are in the trade rumours forum when you propose Timo Meier for Sam Poulin + a 2nd round pick or whatever, lol.

The proposed deal was two 1sts and a choice of one of POJ, Poulin, or Blomqvist.

The reality is you just need a GM that wants the prospect. Doesn’t matter what their pedigree is.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Says the guy who wants to turn us into tge Detroit red wings and doesn’t invest in season tickets.

Easy for you to say behind your keyboard.

I thought you were doing everyone a favor and being done with the discussion?

 

[Turin]

Rossi on Jesse’s podcast made it sound like he thinks that Letang is for sure gone if the Pens lose in the first round. Malkin is more likely to stay but nothing is for sure right now. He also made it sound like the contracts offered to them insulted both... which is the dumbest possible thing that could have been done if true.

I could understand Letang leaving if he wants a huge deal, but it’s probably going to destroy the team. Under no circumstance should Malkin leave.

Also talked about how Marino is kind of spoiled and doesn’t take coaching advice well, for what it’s worth.

 

[ThosePuckingPenguins]

Rossi on Jesse’s podcast made it sound like he thinks that Letang is for sure gone if the Pens lose in the first round. Malkin is more likely to stay but nothing is for sure right now. He also made it sound like the contracts offered to them insulted both... which is the dumbest possible thing that could have been done if true.

I could understand Letang leaving if he wants a huge deal, but it’s probably going to destroy the team. Under no cirumsranxe should Malkin leave.

Also talked about how Marino is kind of spoiled and doesn’t take coaching advice well, for what it’s worth.

Between the McCann trade and Carter extension, if the offers to both Letang and Malkin were that bad, I’m going to be pretty close to being out on Hextall. Especially since it seems like what Letang wants isn’t unreasonable and Malkin flat out stated money doesn’t matter to him.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The only thing re: McCann I'd have done differently is allow Seattle to take Tanev, protect McCann, and then move him ass for something else later that summer.

Not a fan of two years for Carter, who has looked awful for stretches this season.

The real meat and potatoes of evaluating Hexturke is gonna be in the next couple of years; What they can get in return for the tear down, and how scouting/drafting/development go under their tenure. Don't really care about minor crap like losing a dude who has never scored a playoff goal, or re-signing an old dude for one year too long (two years too long, imo, but y'know).

 

[BobCole]

Rossi on Jesse’s podcast made it sound like he thinks that Letang is for sure gone if the Pens lose in the first round. Malkin is more likely to stay but nothing is for sure right now. He also made it sound like the contracts offered to them insulted both... which is the dumbest possible thing that could have been done if true.

I could understand Letang leaving if he wants a huge deal, but it’s probably going to destroy the team. Under no circumstance should Malkin leave.

Also talked about how Marino is kind of spoiled and doesn’t take coaching advice well, for what it’s worth.

Rossi's "inside takes" are and always have been total dog shit.

"Letang is for sure gone if the Pens lose in the first round"

This just isn't a conversation that happens. The guys go to work every day and play hockey. They aren't stopping in the middle of the regular season to think about things like, "well, only if the team makes the second round this year will I stay!" More importantly, they would never, ever ever, have a media roundtable and say these types of things to Rob Rossi.

 

[Pancakes]

Rossi's "inside takes" are and always have been total dog shit.

"Letang is for sure gone if the Pens lose in the first round"

This just isn't a conversation that happens. The guys go to work every day and play hockey. They aren't stopping in the middle of the regular season to think about things like, "well, only if the team makes the second round this year will I stay!" More importantly, they would never, ever ever, have a media roundtable and say these types of things to Rob Rossi.

Yeah that Rossi take doesn't make a lot of sense. Letang has 3 cups, why is it the end of the world for him if the Pens lose in the first round again?

If he leaves it will be because of money and term, and that's all. All things being equal, I'm sure he'd prefer to stay.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah that Rossi take doesn't make a lot of sense. Letang has 3 cups, why is it the end of the world for him if the Pens lose in the first round again?

If he leaves it will be because of money and term, and that's all. All things being equal, I'm sure he'd prefer to stay.

I think it was more about management not wanting to resign him anywhere close to his value versus Letang wanting to leave.

 

[ChaosAgent]

The only thing re: McCann I'd have done differently is allow Seattle to take Tanev, protect McCann, and then move him ass for something else later that summer.

Not a fan of two years for Carter, who has looked awful for stretches this season.

The real meat and potatoes of evaluating Hexturke is gonna be in the next couple of years; What they can get in return for the tear down, and how scouting/drafting/development go under their tenure. Don't really care about minor crap like losing a dude who has never scored a playoff goal, or re-signing an old dude for one year too long (two years too long, imo, but y'know).

I don't think we knew how committed Seattle was to Tanev cause of the memes and his attitude and his picture last year. Which is pretty stupid.

IDK, if we still had McCann would we feel like we had our 2C and we could move Geno to Sid's wing? I guess but I still think McCann kinda sucks when it matters. Good for him at getting outta here and getting his money tho

 

[Pancakes]

I think it was more about management not wanting to resign him anywhere close to his value versus Letang wanting to leave.

I get not wanting to commit money and term to an old man but the alternatives are much grimmer unless the Pens are deciding to kick off the rebuild in which case you might as well trade everyone and tear it down. why half ass it

 

[SEALBound]

I know there's always a market for #1dmen but, seriously, where does Letang go that offers him THAT much better of a deal anywhere else? Most cup contenders are at the cap with not a lot of room to fit in a guy like Letang. Make trades for space, sure, but still.

I am done with this discussion for now but I find it completely hypocritical that posters who bash the coach for not changing want to keep the same players around when it’s so obvious there needs to be major shakeups with the lineup.

I think one thing that you underestimate is how difficult it is to bring in impact players or to draft impact players. If you send out a guy like Malkin, there are 32 current GMs that will tell you how difficult he is to replace in nearly every facet imaginable (and I would venture the guess they would be able to tell you a million things you aren't considering).

Go look at the available centers this coming off-season. Not many. Certainly not many that we can afford that would come here that are near a PPG like Malkin is.

If you want the major shakeup...tell us what your plan would be. Name actual names and actual deals and actual trades with actual returns. Not just "shake it up!".

1) I was responding to a post about *IF* we either let Malkin walk or moved him to the wing, and did not end up signing a C replacement. I said DOC would end up becoming our 2C any default, whether he’s ready or not. I wasn’t advocating this course of action as ideal.

2) We were also talking in the context of Sullivan NOT being the coach of this team next year. But even if he were to be, he’s not the GM and after the failure to advance the last few years, Burke & Hextall are not going to defer to Sullivan on personnel decisions.

I do think we should be grooming DOC to be our next 2C. I am really toying with the idea of giving him solid top 6 wings next year and moving Malkin to Sid's wing.

Jake-Sid-Malkin
Zucker-DOC-Rakell
Heinen-Carter-XXXX

 

[jmelm]

I know there's always a market for #1dmen but, seriously, where does Letang go that offers him THAT much better of a deal anywhere else? Most cup contenders are at the cap with not a lot of room to fit in a guy like Letang. Make trades for space, sure, but still.


I think one thing that you underestimate is how difficult it is to bring in impact players or to draft impact players. If you send out a guy like Malkin, there are 32 current GMs that will tell you how difficult he is to replace in nearly every facet imaginable (and I would venture the guess they would be able to tell you a million things you aren't considering).

Go look at the available centers this coming off-season. Not many. Certainly not many that we can afford that would come here that are near a PPG like Malkin is.

If you want the major shakeup...tell us what your plan would be. Name actual names and actual deals and actual trades with actual returns. Not just "shake it up!".

I do think we should be grooming DOC to be our next 2C. I am really toying with the idea of giving him solid top 6 wings next year and moving Malkin to Sid's wing.

Jake-Sid-Malkin
Zucker-DOC-Rakell
Heinen-Carter-XXXX

Re. Letang, I don't see any team offering him more money than we can afford to, unless he ends up taking more money on a 2-3 year deal (in which case someone may offer him a much higher AAV), but his preference is a 5 year deal and I'm perfectly fine to give it to him. 5 years x $7M per.

Re. moving Geno to wing and signing Rakell: as I said before, I just don't think Geno can play 82 games for 20 minutes/night like Sid and not burn him out. And I also don't think it gives us the scoring balance we would want on the top 2 lines. Having Rakell on L1 with Jake & Sid, and then having Geno on L2, is both better scoring balance and reduces Geno's minutes which will keep him fresher for longer into the season or playoffs if we make it there.