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Penguins and Mike Sullivan agree to part ways

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A lot of good takes from fans here, but saying the team went to a more passive 1-2-2 for a month or two as a sign it adjusted is I think giving too much credit for something that should have been more of a concerted effort with Sullivan and the three GMs this team has had under his tenure. If that stuff works, you stick with it, and then you build an identity and habits around it.

My issue with Sullivan had a bit in tactics but also was more on how he clammed up after seemingly being so open to trying new things and giving rookies a shot. He gets praise for giving young guys big playing time, but a lot of those guys he already trusted from coaching WBS. Once that wave of players passed through, the bottom six was clogged up by 30 year old journeymen and a clear caveat to score with the first two lines and clog up defensive zone starts and finish even in the bottom six.

Not to advocate for Crosby getting dumped into the defensive zone for half his shifts, but the roster construction was built on youth and tenacity and guys who could play fast and think faster. It should be noted that more than half of these guys were barely in the NHL. Most NHL fans aren't going to remember Scott Wilson or Tom Kuhnackl. It worked though, and I think a part of that is that there was trust and eagerness to put these players in positions that weren't just "here's your 75% dzone starts Noel"

I think the next concerted effort to give youth opportunities was late this season when Sullivan put Koivunen and McGroarty with Crosby and Malkin and in big time moments and basically said "go do it." For the most part, they did it. I can't point out where that was ever done on a small scale with some of the Penguins B or C tier prospects playing over the Acciaris of the world. It's hard to believe the increased playing time for McGroarty and Koivunen wasn't a Dubas directive.

There's something to be said about infusing young talent into the roster and playing that talent. This coach definitely got a say in the players that came and went. Most of the players after awhile just became the "Sully clones" meme. It was hard not to feel like he had a big say in that roster construction. He obviously had a big say in how players were utilized. How guys like Noel Acciari and Nieto and Jansen Harkins have been dominating the bottom 6 over the past 2 seasons is telling.

My big issue with the team is the middle ground, and Sullivan maybe unfairly got tossed into that dumpster. There have been minimal attempts to build a team identity. Rutherford started to go bananas with the Reaves trade. Hextall resigned "the core" instead of taking the team in a new direction. Dubas seemed to want to give the Penguins the stereotypical "fast guys to play the sullivan system" (I think he said as much) when it was clear the NHL is a bit different now. The players didn't really match that.

I'd be curious to see where this team would have been with Sullivan after blowing everything up after say 2019.

It was just time.
 
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Love that comment about Dubas having to call Sid to let him know that parting with Sully was best for the organization, and he had to do what's best.

... Wouldn't that include resigning, Kyle?
 
Pavels Dog said:
Yes the coach was the problem
Click to expand...
At the start of this season, he had...

Crosby/Malkin/Eller/Hayes/Acciari as his center depth
That's a league-wide top 10 center, a good 2C, a decent 3C, and a very good duo for your fourth line
Rakell and Rust as his Top 6 RWs
That's a 30-goal, first line winger for each scoring line
Beauvillier, Bunting, O'Connor Lizotte as his depth wings
Not great, but not terrible
Letang and Karlsson as his Top 4 RDs
Both of those guys are a luxury on the middle pair, albeit not ideal as your 1D
Pettersson and Grelcyk as his Top 4 LDs
Both are good middle pair guys, albeit unideal top pair guys

That's sufficient quantity, quality, and well-rounded talent to grab a Wild Card spot, even with shitty goaltending. Especially with all their experience and winning pedigree.
Sullivan had them ~12th in the East all year.
 
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kerrabria said:
At the start of this season, he had...

Crosby/Malkin/Eller/Hayes/Acciari as his center depth
That's a league-wide top 10 center, a good 2C, a decent 3C, and a very good duo for your fourth line
Rakell and Rust as his Top 6 RWs
That's a 30-goal, first line winger for each scoring line
Beauvillier, Bunting, O'Connor Lizotte as his depth wings
Not great, but not terrible
Letang and Karlsson as his Top 4 RDs
Both of those guys are a luxury on the middle pair, albeit not ideal as your 1D
Pettersson and Grelcyk as his Top 4 LDs
Both are good middle pair guys, albeit unideal top pair guys

That's sufficient quantity, quality, and well-rounded talent to grab a Wild Card spot, even with shitty goaltending. Especially with all their experience and winning pedigree.
Sullivan had them ~12th in the East all year.
Click to expand...
For pretext, I'm glad that Sullivan is gone. The Pens need a fresh voice.

With that said, team defense was atrocious for reasons that were not entirely Sully's fault this season. Once you ADD SHITTY GOALTENDING to that mix, no, you don't have a playoff team, IMHO.
 
Empoleon8771 said:
They almost definitely don't. Maybe with Crosby, but Malkin is completely spent at this point and is very likely retiring after next year.
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I think he’s retiring too, and he is slowing down, but he hasn’t had reliable, good wingers the last two years. Two yeats ago w/Zucker and Rust he averaged 1 point per game. Hard to do that with Drew O’Connor and Cody Glass one game and Beauvillier and Tomasino the next.
 
Sullivan was heading out and went in with guns blazing on demands to Dubas as to what he wanted. Dubas to his credit fired his ass. You have no leverage and miss the playoffs with your coaching inflexibility, and you pull a power play? Really? He knew it was over and now can use the mutual agreement to coach one of the teams who still think he is up there in the coaching ranks. He is a good person but it was time to go. Hello Rangers or Bruins and he may have success with a new message and change. In the end, Pens need to go with a coach who sees the plan knows that is the way to go.
 
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chethejet said:
Sullivan was heading out and went in with guns blazing on demands to Dubas as to what he wanted. Dubas to his credit fired his ass. You have no leverage and miss the playoffs with your coaching inflexibility, and you pull a power play? Really? He knew it was over and now can use the mutual agreement to coach one of the teams who still think he is up there in the coaching ranks. He is a good person but it was time to go. Hello Rangers or Bruins and he may have success with a new message and change. In the end, Pens need to go with a coach who sees the plan knows that is the way to go.
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I think pens fans will learn quick how values Sully is around the league. Two cups, players love him and while experienced, not a dinosaur.

I mean the pens roster didn't look all that great before the hiring of Dubas and is even worse now.

I mean I get it, the pens had been so good for so long that it was inevitable they would fall but none of that is really the coaches fault.

I think the fact that he kept that team bought in for all those years and dragged them into the playoffs a couple of times when they were clearly declining looks good on him.
Even last season after moving Jake and throwing in the towel they almost snuck in.

I know the rumour is the rags for 7 million but I wonder if the fact that he was hired by Rutherford and Allvin he could be swayed to come over here?
I know the nucks struggled this year but unlike the rags who did even worse they had legit excuses for it and unlike the rags, they are young, have a ton of cap and prospects to add some good pieces this summer.

I'm ok with Tochett and I'm grateful for the work he did with the defense but the offensive decline from our forwards this year can't be ignored.
The previous season we scored a lot more under Tochett but anyone who watched saw that the longer his system was taught, the offense continued to decline.
 
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People forget penguins almost won against the Rangers in 2022 except Crosby was injured in one game and probably diminished the remainder. Plus they were down to their 3rd string goalie..Louie Dominguez..who played in that series about as much as he had in the NHL starting in 2020-21. Even then it was a power play goal in overtime by Panarin that finished them.
But as Bill Parcells used to say “My shirt (!) doesn’t work after a few years”.
 
kerrabria said:
At the start of this season, he had...

Crosby/Malkin/Eller/Hayes/Acciari as his center depth
That's a league-wide top 10 center, a good 2C, a decent 3C, and a very good duo for your fourth line
Rakell and Rust as his Top 6 RWs
That's a 30-goal, first line winger for each scoring line
Beauvillier, Bunting, O'Connor Lizotte as his depth wings
Not great, but not terrible
Letang and Karlsson as his Top 4 RDs
Both of those guys are a luxury on the middle pair, albeit not ideal as your 1D
Pettersson and Grelcyk as his Top 4 LDs
Both are good middle pair guys, albeit unideal top pair guys

That's sufficient quantity, quality, and well-rounded talent to grab a Wild Card spot, even with shitty goaltending. Especially with all their experience and winning pedigree.
Sullivan had them ~12th in the East all year.
Click to expand...
That's not unfair. I think if the Penguins were getting average goaltending and Sullivan was replaced in December that we likely would have challenged for WC2, given how close it was.
 
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kerrabria said:
That's sufficient quantity, quality, and well-rounded talent to grab a Wild Card spot, even with shitty goaltending. Especially with all their experience and winning pedigree.
Sullivan had them ~12th in the East all year.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the roster was mediocre at best but it's not like MTL and CBJ's rosters are any better and yet one of them made the playoffs and the other almost did it. While having more injuries than the Pens, I believe. At one point the Pens were trying to catch the Hawks and the Sharks for the dubious honor of having the worst defense in the NHL. Sure, the goaltending was often bad but the defense was a compete mess as well and that's to a large extent due to coaching. The team being extremely mentally fragile despite being full of vets who have won everything is also an indication that a coaching change was overdue.
 
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Icarium said:
Yeah, the roster was mediocre at best but it's not like MTL and CBJ's rosters are any better and yet one of them made the playoffs and the other almost did it. While having more injuries than the Pens, I believe. At one point the Pens were trying to catch the Hawks and the Sharks for the dubious honor of having the worst defense in the NHL. Sure, the goaltending was often bad but the defense was a compete mess as well and that's to a large extent due to coaching. The team being extremely mentally fragile despite being full of vets who have won everything is also an indication that a coaching change was overdue.
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Not "full of vets who won everything." Maybe four players left from that last cup team.
 
Okay, full of vets with gazillion playoff games under their belts while panicking near the end of games like a bunch of rookies. Is that better?
 
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bringbacktheskate604 said:
I think pens fans will learn quick how values Sully is around the league. Two cups, players love him and while experienced, not a dinosaur.
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2024-25 The Athletic player poll
When asked which coach they'd most want to play for, not a single one of the 111-player sample said Mike Sullivan. 28 coaches were given nods. None of them were Sullivan. That's all you need to know.
 
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Factorial said:
Not "full of vets who won everything." Maybe four players left from that last cup team.
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Multi-time cup champs:
- Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Rust
One-time cup champ:
- Eller
SCF Game 7:
- Grzelcyk, Acciari

Plus multiple other guys who had their own playoff pedigree and significant playoffs exposure. E.g., Jarry was a 2017 black ace, Karlsson carried his team an ECF Game 7, Rakell had been in the WCF twice, etc.
 
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