Penguins and Mike Sullivan agree to part ways

[Chainshot]

Penguin fans gathering to have a ticker tape parade?

 

[Big McLargehuge]

I live in Allegheny County. Between the pot-holes, Steelers quarterback drama, the Pirates being a dumpster, and the Penguins recent performance I think we're there already lol.

I'm on the other side of the country and I'm right there with you, not that I think the Penguins problems will be magically fixed with a new coach.

Sullivan was the right man for the right team for a while and has been the wrong man for the wrong team for longer. He's a good coach and will have success elsewhere, but every coach has a shelf-life and Sullivan was years beyond his best by date in Pittsburgh.

You f***ing hear that, Steelers?

 

[SomeDude]

Penguin fans gathering to have a ticker tape parade?

I think it’s more relief than celebration at this point.

It would be more jovial if we still had a chance to win, but this is just something that came 3-5 years too late and really won’t change much other than not having to hear how good our compete level was night in and night out after getting caved 5-1.

 

[TheGuiminator]

About 6 years too late. In 2019, he gets swept by the Islanders in four games while the Penguins were heavy favorites to win the series. The 2020 COVID bubble against Montreal was a disaster and then he followed it up by winning the "East" division and getting punked by the Islanders again in 2021. Instead of letting him go then, they let him blow yet another 3-1 series lead to the Rangers and rewarded him with an extension.

The back-to-back Cups were his finesse hours with the team, but he never came close to those heights again.

At 57, with a stale philosophy, he’s the wrong coach for a rebuild anyway. Let’s see what someone else can do with the core and the young guys coming up.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Woah. I expected him to still be there when McGroarty is retiring from the league in his 30’s

 

[Rodgerwilco]

I'm on the other side of the country and I'm right there with you, not that I think the Penguins problems will be magically fixed with a new coach.

Sullivan was the right man for the right team for a while and has been the wrong man for the wrong team for longer. He's a good coach and will have success elsewhere, but every coach has a shelf-life and Sullivan was years beyond his best by date in Pittsburgh.

You f***ing hear that, Steelers?

Agreed with everything here, bud.

 

[Toene]

I mean, do we really think the majority of fans have any legitimate idea on how to judge coaching here? It's almost entirely confirmation bias and parroting tropes...that's not just Pens fans, that's basically the entire hockey community. It's hard thing to judge...I don't mean that in a disparaging way, it's a really hard thing to try to judge not being in practices, not being in the office, etc.

But it basically can be summed up as: If you're winning, you're great. If you're losing, you stink. But that doesn't at all take into account the process. It's not so different than player evaluation..."Player scored? Player good." And there's an element of truth to that, but it ignores a lot of crucial elements...and that's how you get into situations where you're constantly flipping through coaches and there's no organizational leadership. To use a football example, you don't want to be the Cleveland Browns. Hire a new coach, go 4-12, look at the result and fire. Hire a new coach, go 5-11, fire. Etc. A good coach CAN go 4-12 and a bad coach CAN win. It's happened. But the process is important.

You're asking "why did Sullivan suck?" I don't think he did. I think he's one of the best coaches in the league. That said, I do think his time in Pittsburgh is rightfully at an end and I just hope that they don't hire someone who annoys me going forward haha

Sullivan did some fairly unique things. One, he played kids a lot...more than most coaches in the league (I had done some work on this that I'll have to dig up where I factored in draft position and previous NHL experience and post-Pittsburgh time, he came out really high end). Famously, "Cros and the kids" with young Guentzel and undrafted Sheary playing top line in a Final. Murray being played over Fleury. Maatta as a kid played like 20 minutes a night. John Marino played a ton right out of the box. We got see Pickering play over, to be fair, a non-NHLer in Ryan Graves this year for long stretches of big minutes. He's not afraid to give guys a look that look the part and earn it. Penguins fans got upset because "young" prospects like 40 year old Radim Zohorna who couldn't catch a pass with a butterfly net or the time that someone claimed that Justin Almieda or some other ECHLer should be up in the lineup...none of the players that those guys wanted were NHLers really, except for Sprong...who has played for 40 teams since he was a Penguin, it'll be 42 by the time I finish typing this...

The "no adjustments" nonsense is just a buzzword. I outlined the couple of months in 2024 where we were a passive 1-2-2 as a primary f/c just recently (that was the last time we played defense for any notable stretch of time) or whether it's adjusting the D partner spacing to negate the Rangers cross ice NZ entry like he did in that playoff series where Crosby was knocked out by Trouba and our 9th string goalie gave up a goal from 50 feet away through his chest to lose the series...he's a tinkerer, and he's a thinker. But if you got an ax to grind, you're not going to look at those things, right? Like, that's just human nature. No one wants to sit around and look for ways to dynamite their own argument and stances haha

What's a little bit interesting is how the Bylsma era ended in Pittsburgh (an increasingly convoluted offensive structure with some really crucial single points of failure and a ton of head-manning the puck...a ton) and how Bylsma kind of killed head-manning in the oversped game of DPE 2.0 (2010 to 2016 or so), Sullivan actually sort of help take offense to another level with some creative use of getting guys over top of the puck and creating speed behind it. I broke some of them down here way back in the day.



A lot of teams are using pieces of this now. And it's not like Sullivan has a patent on this...Soviets were generating speed behind the puck 50+ years ago in different ways. But there are some fairly unique things that he was able to do and those were carried on by others when you look around the league.

This year, like I said, you can claim suckage and I won't contest that. This was sort of the same old thing most nights...it was just the quick up situation, and just no one has the speed or the puck poise to do anything useful. Like, ideally, you quick up and you buy some time east-west and pick up Karlsson late and let him enter against d-men on their heels. That would have been great for him and fun to watch. But the only players that were capable of hanging on to the puck up ice were Crosby and, to some extent, Rakell. So...there wasn't time for that. Also, Letang has finally fallen off a cliff, so finding him late wasn't really an option. The other d-men besides 24 probably shouldn't be in the NHL most of the time, so giving them the puck is a no no. So it was basically just a one line team (Crosby) and this style play suited none of the other three lines. So that's fair enough, this wasn't a good coaching season process wise...the results are obvious.

That said, I don't really know what would have helped this roster from a tactics perspective. We could have sat there and played a 1-1-3 and tried to hang in there boringly...but what would that do? Karlsson and Graves would still get beat back to their net. But that's also a little defeatist of me I suppose. So, again, he "sucked" this year because I think he sort of threw in the towel...but I was really happy with his tenure overall, I've personally been at coaching clinics with him, he's a terrific coach, really sharp guy. But this day was inevitable and I wish him well, unless he goes to a team that I hate haha

Didn't expect such a detailed response. Thank you! It's much clearer now. I hope he finds a job, I'd see him succeeding in Anaheim.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

As a Canucks fan this terrifies me. Don't you do it, Rutherford. Don't you dare.

 

[Zirakzigil]

Wish him all the best. He will go down as one of the best Pens coaches of all time, helped us to back to back cups. Team and him should of parted ways a few years ago, thats not on him.

 

[Shrimper]

I too like lying on the internet.

It's amazing how obssessed some are about Dubas. They cannot accept he chose to go elsewhere

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Penguin fans gathering to have a ticker tape parade?

I can be on a plane in an hour!

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Woah. I expected him to still be there when McGroarty is retiring from the league in his 30’s

Had he remained, McGroarty would have retired in the AHL.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Wish him all the best. He will go down as one of the best Pens coaches of all time, helped us to back to back cups. Team and him should of parted ways a few years ago, thats not on him.

False. He was amazing for TWO seasons. That does not an all-time coach make, sorry.

Let's see what he does without a GOAT on his roster captaining the ship.

 

[Zirakzigil]

Let's see what he does without a GOAT on his roster captaining the ship.

You can say that about almost any all time coach. Once recency bias has cleared he will be remembered for being one of the Pens best.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

You can say that about almost any all time coach. Once recency bias has cleared he will be remembered for being one of the Pens best.

Again, right place, right time.

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

It’s about f***ing TIME!!!!

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

Christmas in April!!!!!

 

[Homelander]

As a Canucks fan this terrifies me. Don't you do it, Rutherford. Don't you dare.

Don't worry. Drury is already rehearsing his mating dance.

 

[NVious]

The first decade is just a learning experience, sad the Pens were so impatient with Sully.

 

[banks]

I'll say it.

The Penguins have one more Cup run left in the Crosby / Malkin era.

 

[Pancakes]

Yes he very much has been a problem for a while. Team hasn’t won a playoff series in 7 years. A coach sticking around with that kind of lack of success is almost unheard of.

Yeah implying the coach wasn't a problem is a take that looks only at this year's Penguins. Like sure not many coaches get this year's Pens into the playoffs. That's not the point.

Sullivan was a problem far beyond just this year. He should have been fired while they were still trying to make the playoffs and not doing so almost certainly cost them in that regard.

 

[Rodgerwilco]

I'll say it.

The Penguins have one more Cup run left in the Crosby / Malkin era.

With the right coach and a bit of luck in the upcoming draft they really could make a final push. They have two young promising prospects who have already cracked the roster and 11 picks in the draft (including Two 1sts, a 2nd, and three 3rds).

Yeah implying the coach wasn't a problem is a take that looks only at this year's Penguins. Like sure not many coaches get this year's Pens into the playoffs. That's not the point.

Sullivan was a problem far beyond just this year. He should have been fired while they were still trying to make the playoffs and not doing so almost certainly cost them in that regard.

Absolutely. Looking at any of the singular seasons in a vacuum it's hard to point at Sullivan specifically as the one issue, but over the course of time it's clear he his shelf life has run out. As many in the thread have said, he's still a good/great coach but eventually coaches just hit their expiration date. Nothing against him, it's more of an organizational issue having kept him around so long.

 

[Pancakes]

But it basically can be summed up as: If you're winning, you're great. If you're losing, you stink. But that doesn't at all take into account the process. It's not so different than player evaluation..."Player scored? Player good." And there's an element of truth to that, but it ignores a lot of crucial elements...and that's how you get into situations where you're constantly flipping through coaches and there's no organizational leadership. To use a football example, you don't want to be the Cleveland Browns. Hire a new coach, go 4-12, look at the result and fire. Hire a new coach, go 5-11, fire. Etc. A good coach CAN go 4-12 and a bad coach CAN win. It's happened. But the process is important.

And I think the Pens did do a good job of giving Sullivan a lot of rope to try to implement different systems and evolve as a coach and all of that. Maybe they gave him too much time (I would argue they did - many other Pens fans would as well).

When you look at some of the consistent issues the Pens had over the past variety of years, you can definitely point to roster elements as being a part of that, but coaching has to be considered a big part as well. Like it's great that Sullivan was trying to adjust tactically and continuously did so. But at that point, when a coach is trying to do that and the team continues to struggle with certain issues, that's probably the time where if you're the GM you have to start asking yourself if the message is falling on deaf ears, and if a new voice might not be needed.

Process is great but at the end of the day you do need to get results - whether fair or not - and Sullivan spent a good chunk of his time here failing to deliver on that. I'm forever grateful for the two cups and he had a good sustained run of success, but he was long overdue to be replaced. That doesn't mean he's a bad coach or won't have success elsewhere. He had plenty of it here.

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

Cup #6 here we come!!!!!!

 

[Benstheman]

Sid not happy.