Penguins and Mike Sullivan agree to part ways

[Toene]

That's too bad. But I get it. He'll have a job in 5 minutes if he wants it. One of the best, most adaptable coaches out there. And one that isn't afraid to play young players. Understands player dev extremely well. He'll be a good get for someone.

So... why did he suck exactly (according to 99% of HFPens posters)?

 

[Empoleon8771]

If Tochett doesn't re-sign I think he ends up in Vancouver.

I know he wore out his welcome in Pittsburgh but he's an excellent coach and let's be honest, that roster the last three years hasn't exactly been great.

That being said it's absolutely the right move for you guys considering you guys are likely headed for a proper rebuild and that usually involves a new coach that can navigate that Scenario. Sully likely wants to win now and management might want a voice tailored more to that.

I wonder what this means for Sid? Wasn't he a big reason for Sully lasting this long?

He's not picking the Canucks over the Rangers.

 

[Stephen]

I can’t see Pittsburgh being a destination for any blue chip coach option in the near term. Think they set up for the 2025 equivalent of a Rick Kehoe and continue their rebuild.

 

[Turin]

So... why did he suck exactly (according to 99% of HFPens posters)?

I mean the Penguins have literally done nothing since 2018. If he was a super genius you’d think they’d have done a little better. He’s a good coach who was given some shitty rosters at times but he’s also had rosters that really underperformed under him.

 

[Patrik26]

Yes the coach was the problem

 

[Turin]

View attachment 1024883

Sullivan should have been fired before they hired a new GM. He should have been fired with Hextall but FSG wanted Sullivan.

 

[BHD]

I can’t see Pittsburgh being a destination for any blue chip coach option in the near term. Think they set up for the 2025 equivalent of a Rick Kehoe and continue their rebuild.

Agreed. This is why I think the whole "mutually parting ways" is applicable here. I don't have behind the scenes footage, but I imagine he didn't want to be part of a rebuild (or whatever you call it). I mean... they hung in there for the past couple seasons, but the floor absolutely collapsed this season. No legit coach would want to walk into that.

 

[SomeDude]

I can’t see Pittsburgh being a destination for any blue chip coach option in the near term. Think they set up for the 2025 equivalent of a Rick Kehoe and continue their rebuild.

As I said on the Pens board, put Eddie Johnston behind the bench for next year. We need a guy who is willing to do what it takes to get a 1st overall.

They’ll probably just promote an assistant or the WBS coach because, as others have said, the up and coming coaches should have the awareness to know this isn’t an ideal situation. Typically you have a lame duck coach for a few years during the rebuild and then dump them when you’re ready to start trying to win again like the Ducks just did.

 

[TLEH]

As I said on the Pens board, put Eddie Johnston behind the bench for next year. We need a guy who is willing to do what it takes to get a 1st overall.

They’ll probably just promote an assistant or the WBS coach because, as others have said, the up and coming coaches should have the awareness to know this isn’t an ideal situation. Typically you have a lame duck coach for a few years during the rebuild and then dump them when you’re ready to start trying to win again like the Ducks just did.

Luke Richardson come on down.

 

[DEANYOUNGBLOOD17]

Lemieux gets behind the bench next year. Following Gretzky move in Phoenix in 2003

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Yes the coach was the problem

We get the same post every time a coach is fired. So a coach is never worth being fired?

 

[Stephen]

As I said on the Pens board, put Eddie Johnston behind the bench for next year. We need a guy who is willing to do what it takes to get a 1st overall.

They’ll probably just promote an assistant or the WBS coach because, as others have said, the up and coming coaches should have the awareness to know this isn’t an ideal situation. Typically you have a lame duck coach for a few years during the rebuild and then dump them when you’re ready to start trying to win again like the Ducks just did.

I think if Pittsburgh was a little farther in their rebuild and had a recent top 3 pick or two you had to worry about their development (see Chicago, Bedard) the coach might be a little complicated to coordinate. But as you’re driving straight to the basement you don’t have to worry too much about killing the culture in the short term and can hire a placeholder like you said.

The other thing to consider is how soon does Pittsburgh want to have their next generation come up. Think it would be helpful for the next group to have some exposure to the Crosby, Malkin, Letang generation but right now the overlap is just not there and you risk losing a lot of culture transfer.

It’s a very delicate situation. You can smash it all up but you can also keep some of what made the franchise so successful.

 

[thebeernerd]

The Rangers have just found their new coach!

Sullivan has lost his effectiveness with the Pens, and I'm sure that a lot of their fans will welcome this move. I'm not so sure whether this was the right move because I just don't know their team that well.

 

[SEALBound]

I can’t see Pittsburgh being a destination for any blue chip coach option in the near term. Think they set up for the 2025 equivalent of a Rick Kehoe and continue their rebuild.

Who are the blue chip coaches?

Fact is, there are only 32 NHL jobs and only 1-2 come available each year. Penguins are also typically viewed as a high-quality organization. So if there is ANY blue chip coach looking for an NHL gig, I don't think they shy away from Pittsburgh.

 

[SomeDude]

I think if Pittsburgh was a little farther in their rebuild and had a recent top 3 pick or two you had to worry about their development (see Chicago, Bedard) the coach might be a little complicated to coordinate. But as you’re driving straight to the basement you don’t have to worry too much about killing the culture in the short term and can hire a placeholder like you said.

The other thing to consider is how soon does Pittsburgh want to have their next generation come up. Think it would be helpful for the next group to have some exposure to the Crosby, Malkin, Letang generation but right now the overlap is just not there and you risk losing a lot of culture transfer.

It’s a very delicate situation. You can smash it all up but you can also keep some of what made the franchise so successful.

Dubas specifically said in his end of season presser how he wants the next generation to be able to learn from the current guys, which is ideal.

It’s also why most of us wanted this process to start a few years ago. It’s going to be really hard to have your next franchise players in place while Sid and company are still around now. The guys they have now may be part of that group, but we don’t have anyone capable of carrying the torch in the system yet and aren’t likely to find them in this draft.

I think Quinn will be the next coach. He’s basically Mike Sullivan Jr and has been around for a year so he’s not a new face. I also think (or hope) he can be more of a development coach with his college experience.

 

[Shark Finn]

Already?

 

[DickSmehlik]

I would argue they overachieved this past season.

They had a bottom 3 roster, easily.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Lemieux gets behind the bench next year. Following Gretzky move in Phoenix in 2003

Never going to happen.

I'd be down for Tocchet coming in.

 

[BigVegas17]

Good God, only 5 years too late with this decision.

I imagine he will go home to Boston to coach his son-in-law

 

[SenzZen]

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Dubas specifically said in his end of season presser how he wants the next generation to be able to learn from the current guys, which is ideal.

It’s also why most of us wanted this process to start a few years ago. It’s going to be really hard to have your next franchise players in place while Sid and company are still around now. The guys they have now may be part of that group, but we don’t have anyone capable of carrying the torch in the system yet and aren’t likely to find them in this draft.

I think Quinn will be the next coach. He’s basically Mike Sullivan Jr and has been around for a year so he’s not a new face. I also think (or hope) he can be more of a development coach with his college experience.

I read thaty Dubas thinks the team is a finished product. He is an imbecile. There are no young players on the team to learn from the vets. And the only way to get young players is to trade Crosby and/or Malkin.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Good God, only 5 years too late with this decision.

I imagine he will go home to Boston to coach his son-in-law

There is no way he is more incompetent than Dubas

 

[SomeDude]

I read thaty Dubas thinks the team is a finished product. He is an imbecile. There are no young players on the team to learn from the vets. And the only way to get young players is to trade Crosby and/or Malkin.

I hate Kyle Dubas, but that’s not at all what he said.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Hopefully the Hawks hire him

 

[Michael Farkas]

So... why did he suck exactly (according to 99% of HFPens posters)?

I mean, do we really think the majority of fans have any legitimate idea on how to judge coaching here? It's almost entirely confirmation bias and parroting tropes...that's not just Pens fans, that's basically the entire hockey community. It's hard thing to judge...I don't mean that in a disparaging way, it's a really hard thing to try to judge not being in practices, not being in the office, etc.

But it basically can be summed up as: If you're winning, you're great. If you're losing, you stink. But that doesn't at all take into account the process. It's not so different than player evaluation..."Player scored? Player good." And there's an element of truth to that, but it ignores a lot of crucial elements...and that's how you get into situations where you're constantly flipping through coaches and there's no organizational leadership. To use a football example, you don't want to be the Cleveland Browns. Hire a new coach, go 4-12, look at the result and fire. Hire a new coach, go 5-11, fire. Etc. A good coach CAN go 4-12 and a bad coach CAN win. It's happened. But the process is important.

You're asking "why did Sullivan suck?" I don't think he did. I think he's one of the best coaches in the league. That said, I do think his time in Pittsburgh is rightfully at an end and I just hope that they don't hire someone who annoys me going forward haha

Sullivan did some fairly unique things. One, he played kids a lot...more than most coaches in the league (I had done some work on this that I'll have to dig up where I factored in draft position and previous NHL experience and post-Pittsburgh time, he came out really high end). Famously, "Cros and the kids" with young Guentzel and undrafted Sheary playing top line in a Final. Murray being played over Fleury. Maatta as a kid played like 20 minutes a night. John Marino played a ton right out of the box. We got see Pickering play over, to be fair, a non-NHLer in Ryan Graves this year for long stretches of big minutes. He's not afraid to give guys a look that look the part and earn it. Penguins fans got upset because "young" prospects like 40 year old Radim Zohorna who couldn't catch a pass with a butterfly net or the time that someone claimed that Justin Almieda or some other ECHLer should be up in the lineup...none of the players that those guys wanted were NHLers really, except for Sprong...who has played for 40 teams since he was a Penguin, it'll be 42 by the time I finish typing this...

The "no adjustments" nonsense is just a buzzword. I outlined the couple of months in 2024 where we were a passive 1-2-2 as a primary f/c just recently (that was the last time we played defense for any notable stretch of time) or whether it's adjusting the D partner spacing to negate the Rangers cross ice NZ entry like he did in that playoff series where Crosby was knocked out by Trouba and our 9th string goalie gave up a goal from 50 feet away through his chest to lose the series...he's a tinkerer, and he's a thinker. But if you got an ax to grind, you're not going to look at those things, right? Like, that's just human nature. No one wants to sit around and look for ways to dynamite their own argument and stances haha

What's a little bit interesting is how the Bylsma era ended in Pittsburgh (an increasingly convoluted offensive structure with some really crucial single points of failure and a ton of head-manning the puck...a ton) and how Bylsma kind of killed head-manning in the oversped game of DPE 2.0 (2010 to 2016 or so), Sullivan actually sort of help take offense to another level with some creative use of getting guys over top of the puck and creating speed behind it. I broke some of them down here way back in the day.



A lot of teams are using pieces of this now. And it's not like Sullivan has a patent on this...Soviets were generating speed behind the puck 50+ years ago in different ways. But there are some fairly unique things that he was able to do and those were carried on by others when you look around the league.

This year, like I said, you can claim suckage and I won't contest that. This was sort of the same old thing most nights...it was just the quick up situation, and just no one has the speed or the puck poise to do anything useful. Like, ideally, you quick up and you buy some time east-west and pick up Karlsson late and let him enter against d-men on their heels. That would have been great for him and fun to watch. But the only players that were capable of hanging on to the puck up ice were Crosby and, to some extent, Rakell. So...there wasn't time for that. Also, Letang has finally fallen off a cliff, so finding him late wasn't really an option. The other d-men besides 24 probably shouldn't be in the NHL most of the time, so giving them the puck is a no no. So it was basically just a one line team (Crosby) and this style play suited none of the other three lines. So that's fair enough, this wasn't a good coaching season process wise...the results are obvious.

That said, I don't really know what would have helped this roster from a tactics perspective. We could have sat there and played a 1-1-3 and tried to hang in there boringly...but what would that do? Karlsson and Graves would still get beat back to their net. But that's also a little defeatist of me I suppose. So, again, he "sucked" this year because I think he sort of threw in the towel...but I was really happy with his tenure overall, I've personally been at coaching clinics with him, he's a terrific coach, really sharp guy. But this day was inevitable and I wish him well, unless he goes to a team that I hate haha