Tribute Penguin Player Rankings: #7

Who is the Penguins #7 Player


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ChaosAgent

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May 8, 2018
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B2B winners be like:
200w.gif


1. Crosby (70%)
2. Geno (82.5%)
3. Letang (considered a formality, 17.5% of the #2 poll)
4. Guentzel (85%)
5. Dumoulin (73%)
6. Rust (50%)

Also I wanted to futz around with the charts in Google Sheets a bit - I have a Chromebook as my PC now - and holy hell is it clunky. Nonetheless here's a couple of salary cap related stats for the top 6 players. On average, their cap hit is 1.8x the average Penguins player and they cumulative account for 48% of the salary cap. Getting dual axes was a huge PITA but at least I now vaguely know how to do it.

Left axis is cumulative index vs. an average cap hit. Really should (will!) come down as we move further along. For all those lovely lads out there who get annoyed that some players aren't as good as others. =P. Right axis is cumulative cap allocation.

upload_2021-8-23_21-48-27.png


I'll add Petts for fun. Not really expecting anyone to vote for him but why not. Players in alphabetical order.
 

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AuroraBorealis

Back-to-back hater
Oct 16, 2018
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Kapanen.jpg


This is our 7th (or worse) best player? :confused:

I get that he's only been here a year but this thread is about right now. Seems like people are punishing him for not getting PP1 minutes and empty net situations.

I currently have him ahead of Guentzel and Rust, until he does something to lose it or G+R do something to pass him next year.
 
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hoyster

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Dec 1, 2011
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I think Kapanen was great for us last year and I fully expect him to continue doing that. I also expect him to be better than Carter. I wouldn't put him ahead Guentzel or Rust though.
 

AuroraBorealis

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I wouldn't put him ahead Guentzel or Rust though.
Why not? He nearly doubled Rust's 5v5 output relative to usage. A lot of points he had weren't freebies either. Had to create time and space on his own, using his speed. He's not gonna match or surpass Rust's point totals until Sullivan uses him more.

I expect Jake to be better this year but if he's tentative still with contact and the shoulder then that hurts his game significantly. He was very disappointing in the playoffs and his board play (understandably) sucked all season. Jake can't rely on Sid as much this year as he did in 2018-19 either.

Carter will regress of course. His numbers were ludicrous with us. How far is tough to call.
Kap will too most likely. But I will wait until that happens before changing my list. Right now I'm still in the blown away category.
 
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hoyster

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Why not? He nearly doubled Rust's 5v5 output relative to usage. A lot of points he had weren't freebies either. Had to create time and space on his own, using his speed. He's not gonna match or surpass Rust's point totals until Sullivan uses him more.

I expect Jake to be better this year but if he's tentative still with contact and the shoulder then that hurts his game significantly. He was very disappointing in the playoffs and his board play (understandably) sucked all season. Jake can't rely on Sid as much this year as he did in 2018-19 either.

Carter will regress of course. His numbers were ludicrous with us. How far is tough to call.
Kap will too most likely. But I will wait until that happens before changing my list. Right now I'm still in the blown away category.

I was blown away by how good Kap looked, but for now I'd rank the more proven players ahead him. Rust has been awesome in the past, but I agree that he's been worse lately. For me Kap and Rust are very close ATM and next season will determine a lot for their long-term future with the team.

Guentzel I'd put on a whole different tier as of now. He struggled last season, but was still ppg. Past seasons he has shown that he's not just a passenger next to Sid. He was bad in the playoffs, but so was most of our roster.

As for the PP usage, Kap doesn't really strike me as a PP guy. His style is more straightforward and off the rush. Ironically I think our PP1 needs some of that.
 

AuroraBorealis

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I was blown away by how good Kap looked, but for now I'd rank the more proven players ahead him. Rust has been awesome in the past, but I agree that he's been worse lately. For me Kap and Rust are very close ATM and next season will determine a lot for their long-term future with the team.

Guentzel I'd put on a whole different tier as of now. He struggled last season, but was still ppg. Past seasons he has shown that he's not just a passenger next to Sid. He was bad in the playoffs, but so was most of our roster.

As for the PP usage, Kap doesn't really strike me as a PP guy. His style is more straightforward and off the rush. Ironically I think our PP1 needs some of that.

Apologies for the length, but I'm trying to make higher effort posts more frequently. :DD

Yeah it all comes down to how much weight people on this topic attribute to seasons prior to last year. I'm looking at it from a perspective of what I expect we'll get from them in 2021-22, since the future is the only thing that matters now.

Rust's 5v5 P60 fluctuated dramatically from 2019-20 to 2021. From 2.55 to 1.51. So I think what we'll get is something in the middle. Maybe like 1.80. An improvement, but not a dramatic one.
And I fully expect Kap to exceed 2.00 again, despite playing with weaker linemates. I say this because I expect Malkin to miss close to 40 games, which means it will be Carter and Zucker..and 3rd liners mixed in depending on injury. Think it's clear that Sully's not disbanding L1.

So my point is that I feel Kap is the superior 5v5 player at this time and will continue to be. The way his game works supports the idea of some sustainability, since he drives his lines. Separation speed is an enormous asset in the modern league. It's not like Rust isn't fast himself, but Kap uses it to greater effect from what I'm seeing.

So that leaves the other situations to compare. Kap is highly regarded among Leafs fans for his PK ability. He probably beats Rust at that, but it's hard to compare since Sullivan refuses to use him on ours. IMO a big mistake last year. Our PK finished 27th and Kap's minutes were too low for someone so young and playing so well.

Then we have the PP. I'm not at all enamored with Rust's play there. His playmaking in stagnant situations is barely passable. He almost never one-times pucks on the left wall, which is what he should be doing since he's a right shot. This limits our options and makes us more predictable. His strength on that unit is he has some chemistry with Jake on making the final touches in tight leading to goals. But apart from that, I don't feel he's good enough at it to warrant staying there.

I think Kap can surprise a lot of the fan base with his PP ability. I'm aware that his (very limited) PP1 usage didn't go swimmingly, but I do attribute a lot of that to obvious nerves. That was his first ever opportunity in that role, and he was playing with some greats. In Toronto they never let him up there with the big boys. It could be a very different story this year.
I strongly disagree with the notion that his playmaking can only work on the rush. In fact I consider him to have been our 2nd best Forward (Malkin #1) passer at 5v5 last year, which is what impressed me the most. It was consistent and measured...on all types of plays. Definitely saw no signs of impatience or poor judgment. Normally I'd say Sid but he was getting picked off a lot last year.

Kap's weakness is elsewhere for me. He has a tendency to lose the puck after he turns on the afterburners and does sudden stops. He can't do what McDavid does at warp speed with his hands. So if he's relied upon to make zone entries with his speed, there's the danger that he'll turn it over and we get a zone clearance against us.

Otherwise I see no issue. His slapshot is underrated and his wrist shot is harder and more accurate than Rust's. Moreover he actually likes shooting when the opportunity is there, which is what we have needed on that left wall since Kessel left. And just like Kessel I could easily envision situations where he does small loops to buy time, penetrates the middle ice and lasers a dangerous wrister. This is something Rust doesn't do with any kind of regularity. He will defer unless it's a slam dunk situation where he has to shoot. It's a problem that I can't see changing.

Will be very interesting to see how he follows up a season like he just had.
 
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Peat

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I have to say, I can't say I've ever been struck by Kapanen's ability to make a play against a fairly set defence. Not consistently. Good passer, yes, but I think he very much relies on the game to be in motion. Which I think goes against him on a PP. Which is slightly odd when you see some of his patience and ability to find the right seam when shooting. Would I have him on the PP over Rust? Depends what I wanted. I like Rust's ability to work in and around the net to pick up loose pucks and finish plays. Kapanen's a better shooter, probably a better zone entry guy (maybe?), I like him more at the top of a PP... but Rust I think is a better servant. He'll get the puck to the other guys and finish their chances.

And I think I'd like to see Carter in over both. Maybe not the zone entry guy either is but I like his shot the most of the three, I like his problem solving in static-ish situations, and he'd bring some real net front ability when floating there.
 

CheckingLineCenter

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Aug 10, 2018
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Wanted to go KK above even Rust but

Voted Carter again. Partly because numbers aside the old man looked good last year, and partly because of utilization. I might be one of the biggest HCMS guys left on this board but I don’t think Sullivan uses Kapanen well at all. Can’t have him above Carter until the coach takes the leash off some. If he does I can see Kapanen going nuclear, especially in a contract year.

I have to say, I can't say I've ever been struck by Kapanen's ability to make a play against a fairly set defence. Not consistently. Good passer, yes, but I think he very much relies on the game to be in motion. Which I think goes against him on a PP. Which is slightly odd when you see some of his patience and ability to find the right seam when shooting. Would I have him on the PP over Rust? Depends what I wanted. I like Rust's ability to work in and around the net to pick up loose pucks and finish plays. Kapanen's a better shooter, probably a better zone entry guy (maybe?), I like him more at the top of a PP... but Rust I think is a better servant. He'll get the puck to the other guys and finish their chances.

And I think I'd like to see Carter in over both. Maybe not the zone entry guy either is but I like his shot the most of the three, I like his problem solving in static-ish situations, and he'd bring some real net front ability when floating there.

Agree on Carter on PP1 over Kapanen. Although I think I’d prefer Kap over Rust.

But to the bolded, that’s not really something any of the wingers do well outside of Guentzel (or I guess Simon lol) imo. Nor do I think it’s heavily emphasized within the system.
 
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Peat

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Agree on Carter on PP1 over Kapanen. Although I think I’d prefer Kap over Rust.

But to the bolded, that’s not really something any of the wingers do well outside of Guentzel (or I guess Simon lol) imo. Nor do I think it’s heavily emphasized within the system.

Nah, Simon didn't do it well either, he just created a lot of game in motion situations.

You're right it's not a big part of our system. We play off the rush or we cycle it back to the point. Which, tbf, I think is the whole NHL. The ability to crack static defences through skill is pretty much what separates the stars from the rest imo.

Also, if you ran with Kap over Rust on the current PP1, who's operating in that slot area?
 

CheckingLineCenter

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Nah, Simon didn't do it well either, he just created a lot of game in motion situations.

You're right it's not a big part of our system. We play off the rush or we cycle it back to the point. Which, tbf, I think is the whole NHL. The ability to crack static defences through skill is pretty much what separates the stars from the rest imo.

Also, if you ran with Kap over Rust on the current PP1, who's operating in that slot area?

Carter or Kap I guess. More just saying I just think KK > Rust in terms of power play skill set.

But my first choice of PP1 would be big 3, Carter, and Zucker I think.
 

Peat

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Jun 14, 2016
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Carter or Kap I guess. More just saying I just think KK > Rust in terms of power play skill set.

But my first choice of PP1 would be big 3, Carter, and Zucker I think.

Right, but is it the skillset we need?

Like, I notice you drop Guentzel from your PP1. So would I, because while he's clearly very good on the PP, he doesn't bring what we need to Sid and Geno all that much. He's replicating strengths.

And I'm dubious about Kapanen's skill set actually improving the unit.
 
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CheckingLineCenter

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Right, but is it the skillset we need?

Like, I notice you drop Guentzel from your PP1. So would I, because while he's clearly very good on the PP, he doesn't bring what we need to Sid and Geno all that much. He's replicating strengths.

And I'm dubious about Kapanen's skill set actually improving the unit.

I mean I guess it depends on the other players in the unit and where they are.

More so just generally saying that KK has the superior PP skill set than Rust from a traditional sense.

But for semantics/exercise’s sake? As you saw he wouldn’t be my first choice— but I might still lean his way if it came to him vs Rust. We weren’t bad with Kessel on the half wall. Not saying Kapanen is at that level but I’d think his skillset is more suited to that type of role than Rust’s is. Then you could have Zucker or Carter in the net/slot/bumper area.
 
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Peat

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I mean I guess it depends on the other players in the unit and where they are.

More so just generally saying that KK has the superior PP skill set than Rust from a traditional sense.

But for semantics/exercise’s sake? As you saw he wouldn’t be my first choice— but I might still lean his way if it came to him vs Rust. We weren’t bad with Kessel on the half wall. Not saying Kapanen is at that level but I’d think his skillset is more suited to that type of role than Rust’s is. Then you could have Zucker or Carter in the net/slot/bumper area.

Yeah, but Rust isn't used out there all that much. He floats out there from time to time, but he's become a more of a slot/bumper/net guy.

And I think I would question whether Kapanen has a superior half-wall skill set to Rust's slot skill set. I have no problems with Rust as the guy in that area for PP1 (although I might question how long it lasts). Kapanen's got something to prove as a guy to have at the top of the umbrella.
 

AuroraBorealis

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I mean I guess it depends on the other players in the unit and where they are.

More so just generally saying that KK has the superior PP skill set than Rust from a traditional sense.

But for semantics/exercise’s sake? As you saw he wouldn’t be my first choice— but I might still lean his way if it came to him vs Rust. We weren’t bad with Kessel on the half wall. Not saying Kapanen is at that level but I’d think his skillset is more suited to that type of role than Rust’s is. Then you could have Zucker or Carter in the net/slot/bumper area.
Big difference is Kap will one-time the damn puck. Rust won't. This improves our whole dynamic.

Yeah he won't match Kessel but Phil led the league in PPP's for a season when he was here, so that's a huge ask.
 

Big Friggin Dummy

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I think Kap's hustle could be an asset on the PP at keeping pucks from being cleared or winning battles. I think Carter's shot could be great where Kessel used to be. Could actually have two solid PP units, especially if we split up Sid and Geno.

I think Kap could shine as a PK guy too. Real threat to go the other way.
 
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