Peak Fedorov vs Peak Forsberg

[name]

And that's saying something considering this guy played with Gretzky and Lemieux (both past their primes but still) on team Canada

Is it saying something? Yzerman also played with Lemieux and Gretzky on Team Canada and had this to say about Fedorov:

“I’ve only seen two other players that can dominate a game like Sergei, and that’s Wayne and Mario… in my opinion, he’s the best player in the League. He is different than Wayne and Mario because he dominates with his speed, and unbelievable one-on-one moves.”

Shall we make a poll asking, "Peak Opinion Weight - Sakic v Yzerman"? I mean, come on, Forsberg's longtime teammate gushed about him while Fedorov's gushed about him; that's nice.

Gretzky himself said this about Fedorov:

“I have never seen a player dominate the game the way Sergei did.”

Fedorov and Forsberg were both incredible players and the best of the best agree.

Edit:

Gretzky also said this:

If I had to pick three players to start a franchise, I’d choose Hasek, Peter Forsberg and Eric Lindros.

 

[mattef]

kudos to OP this is a very close matchup.

i went with Forsberg because his peak was literally his whole career. he was just decimated by injuries.

Fedorov was a beast for a shorter time and then adjusted to his regular production.

i guess peak is hard to define. was it a one year thing when everything went right? that would mean peak Cheechoo is one hell of a player.

 

[authentic]

Is it saying something? Yzerman also played with Lemieux and Gretzky on Team Canada and had this to say about Fedorov:



Shall we make a poll asking, "Peak Opinion Weight - Sakic v Yzerman"? I mean, come on, Forsberg's longtime teammate gushed about him while Fedorov's gushed about him; that's nice.

Gretzky himself said this about Fedorov:



Fedorov and Forsberg were both incredible players and the best of the best agree.

Edit:

Gretzky also said this:

What year was it when Gretzky said this?

 

[thadd]

Good post, but this part is an exaggeration. We are not talking about prime Lindros here.

Forsberg was an average sized player who would on occasion try the rough stuff, and more often than not he would injure himself in the process after a couple such games and spend time on IR. I won't even get into his diving penalties/rep either.

What..?

Forsberg was incredibly strong. Gaven and took so much punishment and thrived in the dirty areas.

Lindros started off really strong but got caught with his head down 3-4 times (Stevens, Kaspiritus and I know there's another player I'm forgetting) and was found to be made of glass by the time he'd hit his prime.

If Lindros hadn't ever got caught with his head down he probably would have gone down as one of the top 3 players to ever play the game, but he was literally a glass cannon in every way measurable.

His buddy John Leclaire suffered from tons of horrible back injuries, but his play didn't fall off nearly as fast as Lindross' did!

 

[Xspyrit]

Updating the 8 years and recalculating it to players before 34 (or 32) would take too long, and frankly I've explained my reasons for why adjusted PPG is flawed for players of vastly different career lengths, and that Forsberg fits the general theme of the top 10 (even top 20) of smaller sample sizes allowing more extreme averages.

I didn't even get into the fact that adjusted points is something where YMMV, as some view it as a lot of guesswork and assumptions. I think it's a good guide, but not something I draw sweeping conclusions from. For me personally, I like to look at a players numbers for how they did relative to their era, rather than trying to guess how they'd do when standardizing scoring rates across all eras, which is a tall task in an of itself.

You can repeat it all you want, it still does not matter. Again :

Try to find players who have a better era-adjusted PPG before they reached 34 years old (heck, 32 y/o if you want)

Adjusted points can't be "guesswork and assumptions", it's just more mathematic formulas based on league scoring average per season. Unless the people who did this completely did it wrong? I haven't verified their methodology and didn't crunch any numbers to double check. I assumed it was legit.

Again, Forsberg played a whopping 68 career games after the ripe old age of 32, so “pre-35” is still a comparison that is biased towards Forsberg quite heavily for this reason, and also for the fact that he was a very old rookie when he made his NHL debut (almost 22yo). Most stars have their learning curve in the NHL and their career points/game is dragged down by their 18, 19, and 20 year old seasons, this wasn’t the case for Forsberg who developed in the SHL and got some Olympic experience before coming over.

If you make the comparison ages 21-32, then you will see Forsberg drop back in the pack a bit with the other stars.

See above. AND ages 21-32 (for Forsberg because well, I am not going to remove younger seasons from every other player, feel free to DO IT) :

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

1994-95 to 2005-06, Forsberg had the 4th best PPG in the entire NHL. Well 3rd in reality because Ovechkin's PPG is based on only 81 games (which was well above his career PPG). Who did better? Only Lemieux and Jagr, as expected.


No matter which part of Forsberg you are trying to downplay, he was utterly dominant. Injuries is the only thing that stopped him. He would have done even better if he wasn't injury prone. Oh and advanced stats would probably propel him even more to legend status

Finally, you have still failed to provide evidence that Forsberg would have done exceedingly well from the age of 35 onwards. I maintain he would have tanked his career Points/game average like many other stars before him did had he kept playing, as his career Points/game after the age of 34 of 0.00 (in only 2 GP) attests to.

He has not played after 35 (ok 2 games) so that is why I have talked about stats before 34 y/o, OR 32 y/o if you want. You just still haven't adjusted...

 

[Lexus]

If you wan't to go to a war, who you rather choose? Quite easy for me TBH.

Quoting When Gretzky when he retired and was asked who was the best player in the game today (then). Wayne said that there were three or four superstars in the game, but when the reporter pressed him Gretzky made only one reference: "Forsberg is something special."

Forsberg, he could bring you all the elements you're looking for.

 

[Lexus]

Needs to be posted here aswell.

To get some perspective on how much heart and love of the game Forsberg had.

Colorado Avalanche players went to bed Wednesday filled with happy thoughts of a Game 7 win and the ongoing pursuit of the Stanley Cup, but they awakened to learn that teammate Peter Forsberg had faced a potentially life-threatening ordeal as they slept.

(He was also the the scoringleader at that time of the playoffs)


Forsberg had his spleen removed during an emergency 2-hour surgery at Rose Medical Center at 3:15 a.m. Thursday. Doctors performed the operation after Forsberg complained of crippling pain in the left side of his abdomen a couple hours after the Avs beat Los Angeles, 5-1.

Forsberg had suffered a ruptured or lacerated spleen and was suffering from internal bleeding. The doctors found 1.7 (57 ounces) liters of blood in his stomach(!) The Avs said they do not know what hit - or combination of hits - might have caused the injury.

It ends the season of Colorado's leading postseason scorer, but doctors and team officials are optimistic that Forsberg will play hockey again - maybe as early as next season.



Bob Hartley: "In the morning of the 7th game against the Devils in the Stanley Cup Finals, Forsberg waited for me in my office at 8:30. He literally begged me to allow him to return for the final game."

"Without delay, I communicated with my general manager, Pierre Lacroix, and the team's doctors. But they refused to allow Forsberg to play. According to the doctors, Forsberg could've died on the rink if we allowed him to play that day. It was way too risky but we thanked Forsberg for being such a warrior."

 

[BraveCanadian]

If you wan't to go to a war, who you rather choose? Quite easy for me TBH.

Quoting When Gretzky when he retired and was asked who was the best player in the game today (then). Wayne said that there were three or four superstars in the game, but when the reporter pressed him Gretzky made only one reference: "Forsberg is something special."

Forsberg, he could bring you all the elements you're looking for.

Yes, but one time Wayne Gretzky also said that I was the best hockey player in the universe so..

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Yes, but one time Wayne Gretzky also said that I was the best hockey player in the universe so..

Gretzky quotes and on-pace numbers, with little actually achieved. The Forsberg argument.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

Both amazing.

 

[LightningStorm]

You can repeat it all you want, it still does not matter. Again :

Try to find players who have a better era-adjusted PPG before they reached 34 years old (heck, 32 y/o if you want)

Adjusted points can't be "guesswork and assumptions", it's just more mathematic formulas based on league scoring average per season. Unless the people who did this completely did it wrong? I haven't verified their methodology and didn't crunch any numbers to double check. I assumed it was legit.

Any adjusted points are estimates, cause hockey is played by humans not computers. They can be interesting at times when comparing across eras, but should not be taken as gospel, especially as a foundation for an argument.

Since you use his age 32 season as a cutoff, a better comparison would be comparing how Forsberg did relative to his peers compared to players from other eras. For example, he finished top 10 a total of 8 times for assists and 5 times for points. 4 times he was top 5 in both categories, and led the league in both in 2003. Comparing that to others through age 32, while still having its own limitations, is much more useful than taking an estimate as gospel.

No matter which part of Forsberg you are trying to downplay, he was utterly dominant. Injuries is the only thing that stopped him. He would have done even better if he wasn't injury prone. Oh and advanced stats would probably propel him even more to legend status

He was dominant when he played. The problem is his playing style that made him so dominant was the same thing that made him injury prone.

 

[Xspyrit]

Any adjusted points are estimates, cause hockey is played by humans not computers. They can be interesting at times when comparing across eras, but should not be taken as gospel, especially as a foundation for an argument.

Since you use his age 32 season as a cutoff, a better comparison would be comparing how Forsberg did relative to his peers compared to players from other eras. For example, he finished top 10 a total of 8 times for assists and 5 times for points. 4 times he was top 5 in both categories, and led the league in both in 2003. Comparing that to others through age 32, while still having its own limitations, is much more useful than taking an estimate as gospel.

He was dominant when he played. The problem is his playing style that made him so dominant was the same thing that made him injury prone.

I can agree with some of that. And I also posted what he did compared to other players in the same Era in post #305. As you can see, he was still very dominant despite many HOFers and legends playing at the same time. Being the 3rd most productive guy (no need for era adjustment) during that period of time is quite the feat

 

[name]

What year was it when Gretzky said this?

Look it up yourself.

 

[Wings4Life]

What..?

Forsberg was just 6'0 and 205 lbs, which is an average sized NHLer in the 90s.

Lindros and Leclaire on the other hand were physically much stronger players. Not close.

 

[authentic]

Forsberg was just 6'0 and 205 lbs, which is an average sized NHLer in the 90s.

Lindros and Leclaire on the other hand were physically much stronger players. Not close.

Size doesn’t = strength. He was stronger than many players who were bigger and definitely most who were his size or smaller.

 

[Wings4Life]

He was stronger than many players who were bigger and definitely most who were his size or smaller.

Wrong, but a common misconception among Forsberg fanatics.

Forsberg himself may have thought so too, which is why he spent half his career on IR.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

AND ages 21-32 (for Forsberg because well, I am not going to remove younger seasons from every other player, feel free to DO IT) :

Nah, you feel free to do it, as the onus is on you.

 

[NatusVincere]

Fedorov was a beast for a shorter time and then adjusted to his regular production.

I see it this way, Fedorov grew up in relatively poverty. Later he had to go through one of the hardest trainings and development systems, trained and played under Tikhonov. He had no childhood at all. At the moment he was a established superstar in the NHL and a millionaire, he simply hadn’t the discipline and desire go furthermore through pain day in and day out and relied mainly on his talent.

I saw the same several times in soccer with the big Brazilian star players. Ronaldinho and Ronaldo where fat at the end of their twenties. Someone like CR7 is a role model till the end of his thirties. Not everyone has the talent AND work mentality like a Jordan had or a CR7 has. And it’s understandable in some cases if you ask me. But of course that's just a guess. Maybe he really didn't have more in the tank.

 

[norrisnick]

I see it this way, Fedorov grew up in relatively poverty. Later he had to go through one of the hardest trainings and development systems, trained and played under Tikhonov. He had no childhood at all. At the moment he was a established superstar in the NHL and a millionaire, he simply hadn’t the discipline and desire go furthermore through pain day in and day out and relied mainly on his talent.

I saw the same several times in soccer with the big Brazilian star players. Ronaldinho and Ronaldo where fat at the end of their twenties. Someone like CR7 is a role model till the end of his thirties. Not everyone has the talent AND work mentality like a Jordan had or a CR7 has. And it’s understandable in some cases if you ask me. But of course that's just a guess. Maybe he really didn't have more in the tank.

That is a completely false narrative. Because the only thing that dropped off with Fedorov is regular season scoring. His defense and playoff performances never waivered. So he didn't stop working because he didn't have discipline. He was still working but reduced minutes, reduced linemates (talent was spread), and focus on team defense caused a reduce in offense (during the regular season).

Fedorov, because the team also did, de-prioritized individual scoring in the regular season after the failed playoffs of '94, '95, and '96 (coincidentally Fedorov's regular season scoring peak, no?). Bowman stopped riding Yzerman and Fedorov for 25+ minutes a night and the 3rd and 4th lines got much more ice and their scoring rose while the top 6 dropped. The balanced approach led to Cups and the Wings then stuck with that formula. The Wings were routinely in the top 2-3 teams in the league for offense but no skater got even a sniff of being top 3 in scoring through the rest of the 90s and basically ever since (though lately it's been because the Wings are trash).

 

[HaNotsri]

Peak Forsberg but then I'm basing it on him at his absolute best, not full seasons.

I see it this way, Fedorov grew up in relatively poverty. Later he had to go through one of the hardest trainings and development systems, trained and played under Tikhonov. He had no childhood at all. At the moment he was a established superstar in the NHL and a millionaire, he simply hadn’t the discipline and desire go furthermore through pain day in and day out and relied mainly on his talent.

I saw the same several times in soccer with the big Brazilian star players. Ronaldinho and Ronaldo where fat at the end of their twenties. Someone like CR7 is a role model till the end of his thirties. Not everyone has the talent AND work mentality like a Jordan had or a CR7 has. And it’s understandable in some cases if you ask me. But of course that's just a guess. Maybe he really didn't have more in the tank.

I always suspected Ronaldinho to lie about his age.

 

[Lexus]

Wrong, but a common misconception among Forsberg fanatics.

Forsberg himself may have thought so too, which is why he spent half his career on IR.

"The toughest NHL player you ever played against?" -- Quite easily Peter Forsberg. We have had our battles (he said laughing)... Forsberg was a one-man wrecking crew. He was so skilled and yet so powerful.. the man could simply do it all and at the same time he was hard as nails. He was extremely tough to play against. He was down right nasty." -- Chris Chelios

"Some of the stuff he does is just ridiculous. Jaromir Jagr is big and strong like Forsberg, but Jagr doesn't fight back if you play him tough like Forsberg does. "I think he's the toughest player in the game to play against." -- Derian Hatcher

"Peter Forsberg is one of the best hockey players that ever played the game, and I actually don't think that anyone has been so good as Peter was during his peak, I've played against him alot, so I should know." -- Vjatjeslav Fetisov

At the HHOF induction, was asked the question on which player he thinks it's the best he ever played against. -- I would probably say that Forsberg is the best player I ever played against" -- Scott Stevens

 

[Trendkill101]

"The toughest NHL player you ever played against?" -- Quite easily Peter Forsberg. We have had our battles (he said laughing)... Forsberg was a one-man wrecking crew. He was so skilled and yet so powerful.. the man could simply do it all and at the same time he was hard as nails. He was extremely tough to play against. He was down right nasty." -- Chris Chelios

"Some of the stuff he does is just ridiculous. Jaromir Jagr is big and strong like Forsberg, but Jagr doesn't fight back if you play him tough like Forsberg does. "I think he's the toughest player in the game to play against." -- Derian Hatcher

"Peter Forsberg is one of the best hockey players that ever played the game, and I actually don't think that anyone has been so good as Peter was during his peak, I've played against him alot, so I should know." -- Vjatjeslav Fetisov

At the HHOF induction, was asked the question on which player he thinks it's the best he ever played against. -- I would probably say that Forsberg is the best player I ever played against" -- Scott Stevens

Martin St. Louis was on TV during a Leaf game intermission the weekend he was inducted into the Hall of Fame. He talked about running into Forsberg at the hotel that weekend and telling Peter he was the best player he ever played against during his career.

I wish I could find the clip.

 

[authentic]

"The toughest NHL player you ever played against?" -- Quite easily Peter Forsberg. We have had our battles (he said laughing)... Forsberg was a one-man wrecking crew. He was so skilled and yet so powerful.. the man could simply do it all and at the same time he was hard as nails. He was extremely tough to play against. He was down right nasty." -- Chris Chelios

"Some of the stuff he does is just ridiculous. Jaromir Jagr is big and strong like Forsberg, but Jagr doesn't fight back if you play him tough like Forsberg does. "I think he's the toughest player in the game to play against." -- Derian Hatcher

"Peter Forsberg is one of the best hockey players that ever played the game, and I actually don't think that anyone has been so good as Peter was during his peak, I've played against him alot, so I should know." -- Vjatjeslav Fetisov

At the HHOF induction, was asked the question on which player he thinks it's the best he ever played against. -- I would probably say that Forsberg is the best player I ever played against" -- Scott Stevens

“NHL players are known liars. The myth of Peter Forsberg only grows.” - Hfboards