Peak and Prime: Malkin vs Draisaitl

[Toby91ca]

It was less dominant than Drai in 19/20 as already posted...less separation to second place in more games played and this with Crosby out as the best player with a much higher PPG than Malkin while Drai won it with better PPG than McD.

And also if Crosby weren't injured this year he would never won any hardware this year cause Crosby was on a mission at the start of the season.

Seriously......what???

1 - your response has nothing to do with what I just said....was talking about projecting this season as that is what I was responding to, why are you bringing up 19/20?

2 - I know "you" posted that Malkin's 2011/12 was less dominant than Drai in 19/20, but as also shown above, I have no idea how you could come to that conclusion.....make no sense whatsoever. Not saying it's not close, but extremely had to argue Drai's season was more dominant.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Malkin in the 09 playoffs was an animal Drai has not come close too. That hatrick backhand against the canes in the third round was insidious.

 

[BertMcDrai]

Seriously......what???

1 - your response has nothing to do with what I just said....was talking about projecting this season as that is what I was responding to, why are you bringing up 19/20?

2 - I know "you" posted that Malkin's 2011/12 was less dominant than Drai in 19/20, but as also shown above, I have no idea how you could come to that conclusion.....make no sense whatsoever. Not saying it's not close, but extremely had to argue Drai's season was more dominant.

Sorry someone else has mentioned it.

But when you look at points, Drai had 110 in 71 games and the next had 97p while
Malkin had 109 in 4 more games than Drai and the next also 97p...how is this more dominant??
There is no math that shows that Malkin was more dominant.
At the worst for Drai it's a wash.

And keep in mind the second best scorers in Drais season was McDavid (the unanimous beat player of this generation) while Drai had a higher PPG than McD and Malkin had a lower PPG than Crosby (who was on pace for 138p but didn't play enough games)

If Crosby had played 80% of the season Malkin wouldn't have won any hardware this year while Drai has beaten McD in points and PPG.

At the end of the day it comes all done to injuries of Crosby.
I am not saying peak Drai was superior to Malkin, they are as equal as it gets and keep in mind that Malkin was never the best PPG Player over a season in his whole career while Drai was in his MVP season.
That's why I don't get this Malkin was dominant argument when he was clearly not (if there was never Crosby than he would of course).

That being said, Malkin was awesome and so was Drai.
Both are closer to each other than you try to argument.

 

[Regal]

Sorry someone else has mentioned it.

But when you look at points, Drai had 110 in 71 games and the next had 97p while
Malkin had 109 in 4 more games than Drai and the next also 97p...how is this more dominant??
There is no math that shows that Malkin was more dominant.
At the worst for Drai it's a wash.

And keep in mind the second best scorers in Drais season was McDavid (the unanimous beat player of this generation) while Drai had a higher PPG than McD and Malkin had a lower PPG than Crosby (who was on pace for 138p but didn't play enough games)

If Crosby had played 80% of the season Malkin wouldn't have won any hardware this year while Drai has beaten McD in points and PPG.

At the end of the day it comes all done to injuries of Crosby.
I am not saying peak Drai was superior to Malkin, they are as equal as it gets and keep in mind that Malkin was never the best PPG Player over a season in his whole career while Drai was in his MVP season.
That's why I don't get this Malkin was dominant argument when he was clearly not (if there was never Crosby than he would of course).

That being said, Malkin was awesome and so was Drai.
Both are closer to each other than you try to argument.

I can’t tell if this is purposely disingenuous or not. You mention Draisaitl’s games played in relation to Malkin’s but not McDavid’s games played in relation to Stamkos’. Malkin’s per game leads are decidedly better.

 

[daver]

I can’t tell if this is purposely disingenuous or not. You mention Draisaitl’s games played in relation to Malkin’s but not McDavid’s games played in relation to Stamkos’. Malkin’s per game leads are decidedly better.

I recall this argument being used earlier in the thread and I am sure a quick search would find it being made by the same poster who has been furiously arguing using PPG comparisons the last two pages.

 

[BertMcDrai]

I can’t tell if this is purposely disingenuous or not. You mention Draisaitl’s games played in relation to Malkin’s but not McDavid’s games played in relation to Stamkos’. Malkin’s per game leads are decidedly better.

What??????

Best PPG in 11/12: Crosby 1.68, Malkin 1,45
Best PPG in 19/20: Drai 1,55 , McD 1.52

You couldn't be more wrong, you are excluding Crosby as he has never been there.
And if you look behind it's closer than you think 0,17ppg to 0,24ppg to the next bests.
But Drai beat out McD in PPG while Malkin never has beaten Crosby in PPG over a long distance.

 

[Duke74]

You seem to be lacking the ability to apply context to raw numbers in the form of relative dominance to respective peers.

It is indisputable that Malkin was more dominant on a per game basis offensively overall and was equal as a goalscorer, if not better. That needs zero context.

Malkin's era rivals for goalscoring includes two of three best goalscorers since 2005 - Ovechkin, Stamkos.

Draisaitl's rivals include the great three-time Rocket winning, generational goal-scorer Auston Matthews along with 60-goal scorers David Pastrnak and Connor McDavid. Not to mention Alex Ovechkin still kicking around...

 

[Toby91ca]

Sorry someone else has mentioned it.

But when you look at points, Drai had 110 in 71 games and the next had 97p while
Malkin had 109 in 4 more games than Drai and the next also 97p...how is this more dominant??
There is no math that shows that Malkin was more dominant.
At the worst for Drai it's a wash.

Both are closer to each other than you try to argument.

First, I'll address your last comment regarding them being closer than what I'm trying to argue. I should probably make it clear, I'm not a big fan of either guy, nor do I have a dislike for either guy, so I figure I'm pretty objective here. I am not suggesting it's not close at all...simply looking at those two years in isolation and having an extremely hard time how you'd conclude Draisaitl was more dominant or had a better season that year. For the record, taking all years, I think Draisaitl is probably better, but it's extremely close and I can see people arguing either way.

Back to the main point though. I'm not sure what you mean by suggesting there is no math that shows Malkin was more dominant....I showed the math, it's pretty clear. I don't know why you'd reference raw point totals....110 in 71 games, Malkin had 109 in 4 more games, so clearly Draisaitl was better....doesn't work that way. Scoring environments were different, which is exactly why I went into PPG to compare against the other top scorers and it is pretty clear that Malkin was way above the rest moreso than Draisatl.

You suggest Draisaitl had 110 and second best was 97....while Malkin had 109 and next best was also 97.....but you forgot to mention #2 in Draisaitl's year only played 64 games, while #2 in Malkin's year played 82 games...huge difference. #3 and #4 in Draisaitl's year had 95 and 95, in 69 and 70 games while #3 and #4 Malkin's year had 93 and 84 pts in 77 and 80 games. I'm honestly not sure what you are missing here.

Last point, I know you've raised Crosby and how he was dominating and if he stayed healthy, etc. I get that, even though we have no idea what would have transpired if he played those remaining 60 games. But let's say he did and scored 138pts. I think that would take a bit of the shine off Malkin's year, but don't see why that would a huge weight when comparing against someone from another year. For example, does Jagr's 149pt year fall below everyone other scoring leader simply because Mario existed that year?

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

I'll take Geno , NHL is kind of a mickey mouse point league right now , 100 points/50 goals ain't what it used to be

 

[Toby91ca]

What??????

Best PPG in 11/12: Crosby 1.68, Malkin 1,45
Best PPG in 19/20: Drai 1,55 , McD 1.52

You couldn't be more wrong, you are excluding Crosby as he has never been there.
And if you look behind it's closer than you think 0,17ppg to 0,24ppg to the next bests.
But Drai beat out McD in PPG while Malkin never has beaten Crosby in PPG over a long distance.

Not sure why you are so fixated on Crosby and 1.68ppg over 22 games, but it seems to be having such a huge impact on your assessment of these two years....it makes no sense.

You suggest if you look closer and go to the next guy, it's closer than you think because only 0.24ppg lead for Malkin vs. 0.17ppg lead for Draisaitl. 1) It's better regardless of it being close or not and that's what's being suggest here, Malkin's season was better, but also 2) it's quite a bit better vs. looking at the raw stat of 0.24 vs. 0.17.....it's 0.24 better than 1.21 vs. 0.17 better than 1.38....that's a significant difference (20% vs. 12%).

You seemed to suggest earlier to simply remove Crosby and McDavid then but perhaps didn't like what that showed either so going back to pointing to Crosby's existence and suggesting that Draisaitl in fact led in PPG, Malkin didn't, therefore Draisaitl must have had the better year. Not sure how you can look at that so black and white. Do me a favour, what year do you think was better, MacKinnon's 2023/24 season or McDavid's 2017/18 season?

 

[Canovin]

I'll take Geno , NHL is kind of a mickey mouse point league right now , 100 points/50 goals ain't what it used to be

First time I've seen someone complain about a high scoring league.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

First time I've seen someone complain about a high scoring league.

Yeah I know it's not a popular take , but there's a reason most people prefer playoff hockey to regular season hockey. Something beautiful about scoring a goal with guys waterskiing on your back

 

[BertMcDrai]

Not sure why you are so fixated on Crosby and 1.68ppg over 22 games, but it seems to be having such a huge impact on your assessment of these two years....it makes no sense.

You suggest if you look closer and go to the next guy, it's closer than you think because only 0.24ppg lead for Malkin vs. 0.17ppg lead for Draisaitl. 1) It's better regardless of it being close or not and that's what's being suggest here, Malkin's season was better, but also 2) it's quite a bit better vs. looking at the raw stat of 0.24 vs. 0.17.....it's 0.24 better than 1.21 vs. 0.17 better than 1.38....that's a significant difference (20% vs. 12%).

You seemed to suggest earlier to simply remove Crosby and McDavid then but perhaps didn't like what that showed either so going back to pointing to Crosby's existence and suggesting that Draisaitl in fact led in PPG, Malkin didn't, therefore Draisaitl must have had the better year. Not sure how you can look at that so black and white. Do me a favour, what year do you think was better, MacKinnon's 2023/24 season or McDavid's 2017/18 season?

Show me one year where Malkin had a better PPG than Crosby over a season...Drai has done it over McD.

And if we say no Crosby and McDavid, ok.
Drai had 15 more points than the next in 71 games while Malkin had 12 more points in 75 games...all numbers are speaking for Drai in this case.
You can spin it how you want...Drai had more points relative to the next than Malkin had (even if you include McD) and this in lesser games.

He was better this year than anybody in actual production and ppg while Malkin was only 2nd in PPG (by a landslide) and not better in actual production than Drai relative.

 

[Video Nasty]

NHL is kind of a mickey mouse point league 100 points/50 goals ain't what it used to be

3 players achieved 50 goals/100 points during Crosby and Ovechkin’s rookie season, 1 of which was Ovechkin himself, and Jagr and Heatley.

During Malkin’s rookie year, Heatley did it for a second time, joined by Lecavalier.

Then Ovechkin did it three years in a row. Crosby also did it in 2009-2010. Malkin did it in 2011-2012.

Draisaitl became the first player to do it since in 2018-2019.

Draisaitl did it again in 2021-2022, as did Matthews.

Draisaitl did it for a third time in 2022-2023, joined by McDavid, Pasta, and Rantanen.

Matthews did it for the second time last season, by MacKinnon.

Draisaitl seems to be on track to do it for a fourth time and the lone one again this season.

To sum it up, once we wrap up this current season, that’s twenty seasons of data, each half of ten containing a significantly shortened season (2012-2013 and 2020-2021).

From 2005-2006 through 2014-2015 (and takes us through Draisaitl’s short rookie season), 50 goals and 100 points happened 10 times by 6 players:

Ovechkin x4
Heatley x2
Jagr, Lecavalier, Crosby, Malkin x1

From 2015-2016 through 2024-2025 (pending the remainder of this season and penciling in Draisaitl to do it again) 50 goals and 100 points happened 10 times by 6 players:

Draisaitl x4
Matthews x2
McDavid, Pasta, Rantanen, MacKinnon x1

Seems to be occurring at just about the same frequency by the same types of players. Most have come within a few seasons at the beginning and most have come within the last few seasons. The key here is that Draisaitl and Ovechkin are the only players to do it more than twice during this entire sample size and he did it two of out of the three times it occurred between 2018-2019 and 2021-2022, before it happened four times in 2022-2023, of which he contributed yet again.

 

[Toby91ca]

Show me one year where Malkin had a better PPG than Crosby over a season...Drai has done it over McD.

And if we say no Crosby and McDavid, ok.
Drai had 15 more points than the next in 71 games while Malkin had 12 more points in 75 games...all numbers are speaking for Drai in this case.
You can spin it how you want...Drai had more points relative to the next than Malkin had (even if you include McD) and this in lesser games.

He was better this year than anybody in actual production and ppg while Malkin was only 2nd in PPG (by a landslide) and not better in actual production than Drai relative.

It's almost as if you are ignoring plain as day numbers for the sport of it.

Why are you obsessed with Draisaitl having a better PPG than McDavid and Malkin has never been better than Crosby, therefore that answers everything, impossible for Malkin to have had the better year. To answer the meaningless request though, I'll show you 3 seasons where Malkin had a better PPG stat than Crosby, 2008/09, 2017/18 and 2019/20.

You seem blinded by context of numbers, focus on raw numbers when you want and then focus on games played when you want....but ignore it when it does work well for you. Example, you are talking about how Draisaitl had 15 more points than the next in 71 games while Malkin only had 12 more points than the next in 75 games.....while COMPLETELY IGNORING the fact that while Draisaitl led that next person by 15pts and he played 71 games....the person he led by 15pts only played 70 games. Malkin led the next guy by 12pts and Malkin sucked of course because it took him 75 games to do that.....don't consider the fact that the next guy played 82 games because we need to ignore games played in this case because it makes Malkin look better......just zero in on the fact that Draisaitl led by 15pts and he played 71 games and Malkin led by 12pts and he played 75 games.....that's what's important....for Malkin to have been better we need to take 15 pts lead, divided by Draisaitl's 71 games and multiply by Malkin's 75 games to get 16pts....is that what we are supposed to do? We need to ignore any other reference to games played by other players and ignore relative scoring levels in each year, etc.

 

[BertMcDrai]

It's almost as if you are ignoring plain as day numbers for the sport of it.

Why are you obsessed with Draisaitl having a better PPG than McDavid and Malkin has never been better than Crosby, therefore that answers everything, impossible for Malkin to have had the better year. To answer the meaningless request though, I'll show you 3 seasons where Malkin had a better PPG stat than Crosby, 2008/09, 2017/18 and 2019/20.

You seem blinded by context of numbers, focus on raw numbers when you want and then focus on games played when you want....but ignore it when it does work well for you. Example, you are talking about how Draisaitl had 15 more points than the next in 71 games while Malkin only had 12 more points than the next in 75 games.....while COMPLETELY IGNORING the fact that while Draisaitl led that next person by 15pts and he played 71 games....the person he led by 15pts only played 70 games. Malkin led the next guy by 12pts and Malkin sucked of course because it took him 75 games to do that.....don't consider the fact that the next guy played 82 games because we need to ignore games played in this case because it makes Malkin look better......just zero in on the fact that Draisaitl led by 15pts and he played 71 games and Malkin led by 12pts and he played 75 games.....that's what's important....for Malkin to have been better we need to take 15 pts lead, divided by Draisaitl's 71 games and multiply by Malkin's 75 games to get 16pts....is that what we are supposed to do? We need to ignore any other reference to games played by other players and ignore relative scoring levels in each year, etc.

For the record, I didn't meant only Crosby...I wanted you to show me that he had best PPG over a season which he never had.

Cause the main argument was he " was running away with the Art Ross" (yes because better players were injured) and " was more dominant"...if you are more dominant than everybody else than at least you should have the best PPG (sample sizes like guy xyz over one or two games excluded).
That's all I have said.

I still think both seasons are equal or close to being equal...but Drai had to beat the best player this season while Malkin didn't have to.

 

[Toby91ca]

For the record, I didn't meant only Crosby...I wanted you to show me that he had best PPG over a season which he never had.

Cause the main argument was he " was running away with the Art Ross" (yes because better players were injured) and " was more dominant"...if you are more dominant than everybody else than at least you should have the best PPG (sample sizes like guy xyz over one or two games excluded).
That's all I have said.

I still think both seasons are equal or close to being equal...but Drai had to beat the best player this season while Malkin didn't have to.

So, I know it's pointless as you are super biased (not saying that as a bad thing, just stating as a fact)....you aren't going to change your mind, but I'm still struggling to point to any real data points to suggest Draisaitl had a better season in 2020 than Malkin in 2012. I don't think there is a huge difference, but I do think it's very clear that Malkin's season was better. I'll try to lay out the arguments.

- Draisaitl had highest PPG vs. Malkin at #2, but not a real strong argument since Malkin's PPG translates to higher than Draisaitl's based on level of scoring each year and #1 Malkin's year only played 22 games, so a lot of people would discount that. Fun fact, 22 games into the 2019/20 season, Draisaitl was at 1.95 PPG, he finished at 1.55. So where would Crosby have finished if he played the full year? There's not correct answer of course.

- Draisaitl had 110pts and Malkin only had 109pts and Draisaitl led #2 by 13pts and Malkin only led #2 by 12pts. On the simple raw points, fine you could argue that's an argument for Draisaitl, except it isn't really because Malkin would adjust to 122pts using 2019/20 scoring levels. Same comment for lead over #2, except it would be even greater due to games played. If you were to adjust the scoring for 2019/20 level scoring and adjust the games played by #2 to be equal to Draisaitl and Malkin, then you'd have Draisaitl scoring 110pts and winning by 2pts and you'd have Malking scoring 122pts and winning by 23pts.

- Raw point totals were just looking at one single comparing player, but what if you look at top 5? Draisaitl led #5 by 17pts (#5 played less games) and Malkin led #5 by 26pts (#5 played more games)....this doesn't even factor in the difference in scoring levels.

- I won't rehash all the other stuff, but will mention a couple end of season awards, Malkin was the overwhelming choice for Hart and AS1.....Draisaitl won both as well, but not in as dominant fashion. I don't place a ton of importance on this, but it provides some insight as to what a lot of people thought. For AS1, Malkin had 145 out of the 149 first place votes, Draisaitl had 124 out of 170. For Hart trophy, Malkin had 144 out of the 149 first place votes, Draisaitl had 91 out of 170.

Simple question: other than Draisaitl beating McDavid in PPG, what's the compelling argument for him having the better year?