Pavel Bure

[TheBig08]

What would Pavel Bure's career look like if never got injured and what would his totals be, what awards would he have and where would rank all time on the goals list

Click to read more...

 

[Professor What]

Might have won another goal scoring title. Probably not much else as far as awards go unless you count all-star nods. As far as goal totals, 600, maybe 700, assuming he also has a longer career.

 

[TheBig08]

Might have won another goal scoring title. Probably not much else as far as awards go unless you count all-star nods. As far as goal totals, 600, maybe 700, assuming he also has a longer career.

how long do u think his consistency/longevity would have lasted?

 

[Professor What]

how long do u think his consistency/longevity would have lasted?

It wouldn't have had to be otherworldly. If we cut out injuries in the career he had, I think you can easily get him to 500. If he remains a 35-40 goal scorer into his mid-30s, that's probably another ~150 goals. So, if he has a decent wind down, he's a 600-650. Good longevity, playing to his late 30s, or maybe to 40 could get him to 700 I think.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

I see no way Bure plays until his late 30s or 40s just doesn't seem like the type... maybe give him one or two more years, say he plays 05/06 then retires.

Anyways, Bure without injuries? Probably 600 goals... Do we assume he still goes to the Panthers and then Rangers?

 

[Sentinel]

I don't see him doing worse than Selanne.

 

[Felidae]

I don't see him doing worse than Selanne.

Hmm idk.

I feel like Bure was more of a physical freak than Selanne. Faster, stronger, better shot...

I'm not sure a mid to late 30s Bure would have aged as gracefully as Selanne, who imo, was more reliant on his smarts.

 

[MadLuke]

There some all-time world class athlete aura a bit around Bure, so who knows, could have aged specially well, was still scoring well the little he played past 30 with all those injuries.

Maybe something like a Kovalchuck, able to keep up and lead team in the KHL until 32-33-34 but the drop post 35 is a bit more sudden than a Selanne like said above.

This feel extremely speculative, for who he play, what Vancouver look like without his injuries, how does he age (physically and mentally), where one even start.

 

[JackSlater]

Might have won another goal scoring title. Probably not much else as far as awards go unless you count all-star nods.

I'd say that's very pessimistic. Bure who doesn't have knee injuries and usually plays a full season has very good odds of leading the NHL in goals in any of 1997, 1998 (played the full season but was not as explosive as he had been prior to knee issues), and 1999. If Bure played the full 82 games in 2000, especially if it's a healthier Bure than the actual one who did play in 2000, he very likely hits 100 points and gets the Art Ross and Hart.

I consider Bure one of the best goal scorers ever. I also think he was likely to have injury issues for stylistic reasons, however we assume that he has very good injury luck I can see something like leading the NHL in goals 5 times or so, a Hart and art Ross in 2000, over 700 goals if he plays to 35ish. That's Bure if essentially everything goes right with his health.

 

[Staniowski]

Without any significant injuries, he obviously likely wins several more goal-scoring titles, 1st and 2nd team all-star selections, maybe additional trophies.

And he would easily score 700 goals, possibly 800.

There were many great goal-scorers among his generation, but he was the best of the bunch.

 

[carjackmalone]

All he accomplished without an elite center is amazing

 

[ozzie]

The best cherry picker I've ever seen, he could float like no one else.

You could easily add another 100 goals to his totals, but not sure how long he would have played.

 

[BarnabyJones PI]

Hmm idk.

I feel like Bure was more of a physical freak than Selanne. Faster, stronger, better shot...

I'm not sure a mid to late 30s Bure would have aged as gracefully as Selanne, who imo, was more reliant on his smarts.

I can go with faster (throughout their prime), maybe the better shot (I have no idea), but stronger?

I'd also add that Selanne himself, lost a lot of his plus speed after his rookie season. I'm actually not sold that he was any slower than Bure in 1992-93.

Selanne was a physical freak in his own right, and I don't think he takes a back seat to Bure in that regard. Almost anyone would have called it quits when he started hitting his decline with SJ, and especially with his time in Denver. Pretty impressive overall, considering that he didn't start playing in the NHL until he was 22.

To Bure's credit, he could hit 55-60 with more regulartiy because he doesn't have to rely on anyone else frankly, so I can see why people are very high on him as a goalscorer. I'm not a fan of that style of play, though I do think Bure is one of the most exciting players I've ever seen.

All he accomplished without an elite center is amazing

His playing with an elite center would be superfluous. He'd drag down the elite center's numbers if anything. He's more in line with being a greater Bondra, and a much greater Klima.

Bure maximized his output at his peak. That's the difference between Bure and Selanne, one worked well with the help of his teammates, which is why Selanne could hit a lofty total of 76. I doubt that Bure could ever touch 70 goals in a seaon. It's not like he didn't play in 1992-93 himself, which would be in line with the early '80s in terms of high scoring.

Without any significant injuries, he obviously likely wins several more goal-scoring titles, 1st and 2nd team all-star selections, maybe additional trophies.

And he would easily score 700 goals, possibly 800.

There were many great goal-scorers among his generation, but he was the best of the bunch.

Bure scored 437 goals and 342 assists in his career, in 702 GP.

Interesting enough, Selanne registered 382 goals and 431 assists in his first 702 GP.

Based on Bure's style of play, it's doubtful that he could ever reach 1,000 GP. And let's say that he did, I doubt that the backhalf of his career would mirror his first 10 years of his career. I think with a little more luck in the injury department, he reaches 600.

 

[Overrated]

The best video on Bure by far:

 

[Gorskyontario]

There were many great goal-scorers among his generation, but he was the best of the bunch.

No he wasn't.

 

[Crosby2010]

Without injuries he definitely far surpasses 500 goals, and probably 600 goals. Just think about it, a full season in 1996, then hopefully a full season in 1999 where he isn't holding out most of the year. Add 40 goals to each season and the 437 he has makes 517, and that still includes him retiring in 2003. He wins the first Rocket trophy in 1999 since Selanne won it with a measly 47 goals. Bure surpasses this, as he got 58 and 59 the next two years. I am not sure if it was just age since he was 30 or nagging injuries piling up but he is off his pace in 2002 and 2003 and of course retires because of his knees then. With good knees he is probably scoring more goals after 2003 but not 50 a season. More like 40. Even with the retirement in 2003 he has over 500 goals if he is healthy.

 

[MadLuke]

I am not sure if it was just age since he was 30 or nagging injuries piling up but he is off his pace in 2002 and 2003 and of course retires because of his knees then.

Low sample size but has a Rangers he still scored at an 50 goals pace.

Last go at the Panthers he was shooting under 10% like in 1996 and 1997, that was a bit of the dark days, the 4 centers with the most ice time scored 33 goals combined:

Rk	Player	Age	Pos	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	EVG	PPG	SHG	GWG	EV	PP	SH	SOG	SPCT	TOI	ATOI	Awards
1	Pavel Bure	30	RW	56	22	27	49	-14	56	12	9	1	1	15	12	0	238	9.2	1322:23	23:37
2	Kristian Huselius	23	LW	79	23	22	45	-4	14	16	6	1	3	13	8	1	169	13.6	1335:48	16:55	AR-1,Calder-3
3	Marcus Nilson	23	LW	81	14	19	33	-14	55	7	6	1	2	12	6	1	147	9.5	1337:54	16:31
4	Jason Wiemer	25	C	70	11	20	31	-4	178	5	5	1	1	16	4	0	115	9.6	1200:34	17:09
5	Ivan Novoseltsev	23	RW	70	13	16	29	-10	44	11	1	1	5	11	4	1	109	11.9	1042:12	14:53

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

a couple stray pavel bure talking pts that intersect with some of the discussion in this thread:

- feel like bure was an extreme version of soviet anti-longevity. the way you typically had soviet guys falling off as a matter of course in their late 20s, to be replaced by the younger generation coming up, my hunch is that bure was not only brought up in that system where his obsolescence was planned but even moreso than everyone else because his dad was his dad. from a young age he was trained to maximize short term gain to the expense of sustainable performance. brother valeri also fell apart very young.

- there’s the idea that bure wouldn’t have worked with, or at least wouldn’t have been helped by, a superstar center. tiny sample size but the one single time he had one and both were healthy (eric lindros in ny) he scored at an 82 goal, 65 assist, 137 pt pace — in a season where the league leaders had 51 goals (iginla), 64 assists (oates), 96 pts (iginla again).

- what i just said about an elite center noteithstanding, in selanne’s 76 goal year, he played with probably bure’s ideal linemates: housley as the elite PMD, and a combo of pass-first two way center thomas steen and classic soviet style center alex zhamnov.

 

[The Panther]

A lot of players damage their career legacies (if that's important is another question, of course) by changing treams. Pavel Bure is a good example. I think if he'd stayed with the Canucks through the late-90s and early-00s into the Naslund / Bertuzzi period, they'd have been even better in that latter era, probably had playoff success, etc., and Bure would still have been getting his 45-55 goals per year. He'd be more appreciated, be more universally loved, and have higher goals' totals. There'd be a statue of him outside Rogers Arena.

But it was the 90s, when star players all wanted to get traded a lot, and also Canucks' management at the time was a trainwreck...

 

[Crosby2010]

A lot of players damage their career legacies (if that's important is another question, of course) by changing treams. Pavel Bure is a good example. I think if he'd stayed with the Canucks through the late-90s and early-00s into the Naslund / Bertuzzi period, they'd have been even better in that latter era, probably had playoff success, etc., and Bure would still have been getting his 45-55 goals per year. He'd be more appreciated, be more universally loved, and have higher goals' totals. There'd be a statue of him outside Rogers Arena.

But it was the 90s, when star players all wanted to get traded a lot, and also Canucks' management at the time was a trainwreck...

I can remember that 1998 season. 51 goals sure, but it might have been the emptiest and non-climatic 51 goal season ever. Because he was doing it on a rotten team and everyone and their mother knew he wanted out. So he was basically just floating his way through.

 

[BarnabyJones PI]

- there’s the idea that bure wouldn’t have worked with, or at least wouldn’t have been helped by, a superstar center. tiny sample size but the one single time he had one and both were healthy (eric lindros in ny) he scored at an 82 goal, 65 assist, 137 pt pace — in a season where the league leaders had 51 goals (iginla), 64 assists (oates), 96 pts (iginla again).

- what i just said about an elite center noteithstanding, in selanne’s 76 goal year, he played with probably bure’s ideal linemates: housley as the elite PMD, and a combo of pass-first two way center thomas steen and classic soviet style center alex zhamnov.

In 12 games. You did say tiny. Good luck sustaining that over an 82-game schedule.

I don't think Housley would have been ideal with Bure, since Bure liked to do too much with the puck as it was. I think of him carrying the puck through the neutral zone, more than Selanne, which is why Selanne/Housley were so effective playing together; two line passes and all. Maybe it works out, who knows, I doubt it though.

You're better off sticking a strong two-way center who doesn't need the puck as much, to play with Bure. Guys with relatively high IQ's, and good awareness, to cover for him.

 

[TheBig08]

ovi vs bure stats in there first 702 games

Bure: 702 games, 437 goals, 779 points

Ovechkin: 702 games, 434 goals, 835 points

what yhall think about ovi vs bure?

 

[authentic]

a couple stray pavel bure talking pts that intersect with some of the discussion in this thread:

- feel like bure was an extreme version of soviet anti-longevity. the way you typically had soviet guys falling off as a matter of course in their late 20s, to be replaced by the younger generation coming up, my hunch is that bure was not only brought up in that system where his obsolescence was planned but even moreso than everyone else because his dad was his dad. from a young age he was trained to maximize short term gain to the expense of sustainable performance. brother valeri also fell apart very young.

- there’s the idea that bure wouldn’t have worked with, or at least wouldn’t have been helped by, a superstar center. tiny sample size but the one single time he had one and both were healthy (eric lindros in ny) he scored at an 82 goal, 65 assist, 137 pt pace — in a season where the league leaders had 51 goals (iginla), 64 assists (oates), 96 pts (iginla again).

- what i just said about an elite center noteithstanding, in selanne’s 76 goal year, he played with probably bure’s ideal linemates: housley as the elite PMD, and a combo of pass-first two way center thomas steen and classic soviet style center alex zhamnov.

How big was that sample size again? I thought he had something like 13 goals in 11 games that one year with NYR.

 

[authentic]

I can go with faster (throughout their prime), maybe the better shot (I have no idea), but stronger?

I'd also add that Selanne himself, lost a lot of his plus speed after his rookie season. I'm actually not sold that he was any slower than Bure in 1992-93.

Selanne was a physical freak in his own right, and I don't think he takes a back seat to Bure in that regard. Almost anyone would have called it quits when he started hitting his decline with SJ, and especially with his time in Denver. Pretty impressive overall, considering that he didn't start playing in the NHL until he was 22.

To Bure's credit, he could hit 55-60 with more regulartiy because he doesn't have to rely on anyone else frankly, so I can see why people are very high on him as a goalscorer. I'm not a fan of that style of play, though I do think Bure is one of the most exciting players I've ever seen.



His playing with an elite center would be superfluous. He'd drag down the elite center's numbers if anything. He's more in line with being a greater Bondra, and a much greater Klima.

Bure maximized his output at his peak. That's the difference between Bure and Selanne, one worked well with the help of his teammates, which is why Selanne could hit a lofty total of 76. I doubt that Bure could ever touch 70 goals in a seaon. It's not like he didn't play in 1992-93 himself, which would be in line with the early '80s in terms of high scoring.



Bure scored 437 goals and 342 assists in his career, in 702 GP.

Interesting enough, Selanne registered 382 goals and 431 assists in his first 702 GP.

Based on Bure's style of play, it's doubtful that he could ever reach 1,000 GP. And let's say that he did, I doubt that the backhalf of his career would mirror his first 10 years of his career. I think with a little more luck in the injury department, he reaches 600.

This brings up an interesting question, were Selanne and Mogilny actually better at their peak than Bure? It’s tough to say since both had their peaks during 1992-93, but like you say Bure played then and only scored 60…. It’s quite the difference

 

[Overrated]

ovi vs bure stats in there first 702 games

Bure: 702 games, 437 goals, 779 points

Ovechkin: 702 games, 434 goals, 835 points

what yhall think about ovi vs bure?

Bure smashed the big rink too. Ovi struggled internationally.