Player Discussion Patrik Laine

[Naslundforever]

And all of those won't get magically fixed with trades and UFAs.

Pick talent, develop the talent, add the talent, continu to develop the talent. It's a long process.

We've made a 21 points jump in two seasons. Your expectations are just as unrealistic as those of those mythical forever tankers. So really, you having an extremist view easily explains why you would want to portray anyone who disagrees with you as the other extreme. It's far easier to debate that way.

And what are my expectations exactly which you call unrealistic?

I mentioned needing being entertained if I’m going to watch, and that adding elite talent to the team is great for player development. And stated my belief perpetual losers don’t learn how to win. Guy like Laine adresses much of that. I believe it trumps tanking at this point.

 

[FerrisRox]

Why didn't any team try to acquire him then?

My apologies as I continue to have to clarify what you are saying because I'm struggling to understand.

You are offering, as proof that Carey Price was "done" in 2019, the fact that "nobody tried to acquire him?"

So, I have to ask: Is Connor McDavid "done?" Nobody has tried to acquire him this off-season. He must be done.

Each time you say something odd, and I ask for clarification or disagree with what you've said, and then you respond to me and instead of answering my question, you make some other odd, barely connected comment rather than addressing what you've been asked.

You claimed that Carey Price was "done" in 2019, I said only a fool could possibly have believe that Carey Price, at age 31 was "done" and in response to that, you ask me why nobody tried to acquire him?

What does that have to do with whether he was done or not? Why are you asking a totally different, unconnected question? What does it have to do with anything?

 

[Captain Mountain]

Sure. It depends where you draw the line and how you define things. For me tanking, as a concept, starts by giving up on a core and relinquishing hopes of competing. It’s a specific decision/action. Accumulating high-value prospects is a function of tanking but it can be done in a variety of ways. We’ve been tanking for three years but accumulating high-value futures for a bit longer.

What else can you call selling a prime of his career 40g winger off a goal-starved team? Suzuki was acquired during a “re-tool” but that was Bergevin selling the present against the future.

I think with respect to Forever Tankers, I take issue with the notion that we’re not anywhere close to where we want to be. I really disagreed with that and was satisfied to know Hughes also disagreed with that. There were many loud mouths in the commentary space who insisted that acquiring Laine was a bad idea because it would get in the way of the “natural progress” of the core. Bullshit.

The point is Rebuilding acquires building. If you start with good building blocks that’s great, we happened to start with Nick Suzuki, Kaiden Guhle, and Cole Caufield so why pretend like they’re not terrific building blocks?

Your specific definition of tanking clashes with the reality of the second paragraph. Beyond the fact that Pacioretty wasn't a "prime of his career 40g winger" (He never hit 40 goals, he turned 30 in his first season in Vegas and he was coming off a season where he didn't even hit 20 goals), Bergevin explicitly said he wasn't rebuilding, and his moves (in both effect and his stated intention) didn't reflect a rebuild (such as Tatar outscoring Pacioretty in 2018-2019).

The general argument of "we’re not anywhere close to where we want to be" is that the team needs to demonstrate that they are closer, and many fans seem to want to just assume that Montreal has a competitive core absent any evidence, based solely on vibes. There's no unanimously positive move for the fanbase (the closest may have been drafting Demidov - a rebuilding move), but most arguments against acquiring Laine (like acquiring PLD last offseason) was cost. Once the trade went down and fans saw it was Laine + a 2nd for Harris, some of the most vocal anti-Laine posters changed their minds entirely. Its about recognition of where Montreal is and how far away they actually are.

Suzuki, Caufield and Guhle are great players. They were and are a great starting point. But Montreal was not unique among teams starting rebuilds in having pieces like that. Its just revisionist history to say that the rebuild started there.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I don’t see progress, you are right. I see potential of progress, but it has not translated on-ice. Pp is inexistant, they are a one-(average) line team, and the D is nothing but hype. And they are not good. Other than Demidov who seems blue-chip, there are also no prospect forwards who project top 6.

You are correct the only entertaining thing I can imagine is watching Hutson, that we agree.

I'm not sure what to say to this. 55-68-76 point seasons is huge progression. We have the best first line we've had in 30 years and they're only going to improve further.

Hage has top six potential to go with Demidov. So does Roy. And we already have guys who've recently graduated. It's a really young top six as is.

Not only have we been progressing, we've been stockpiling young talent along the way. This is what rebuilding looks like.

Laine was secondary scoring wrapped in a lottery ticket. Him going down affects us very little in the grand scheme of things. I get being bummed but it's ridiculous to think this somehow changes anything for us long term. It doesn't.

 

[Habby4Life]

And what are my expectations exactly which you call unrealistic?

I mentioned needing being entertained if I’m going to watch, and that adding elite talent to the team is great for player development. And stated my belief perpetual losers don’t learn how to win. Guy like Laine adresses much of that. I believe it trumps tanking at this point.

A losing culture can easily take hold. At some point games have to start having meaning. The teams needs to have a D zone structure, speciality teams need to improve, etc.

The lets keep it fun, all smiles stuff is more than thin.

How bad does the PP and PK need to be before ANYONE is brought in to fix it. If MSL could, why has it sucked so bad for three years.

 

[SwiftyHab]

It is weird if there's ACL damage, even suspected, that they'd let him put ANY pressure on it so soon after the incident.

Perhaps a small, tiny glimmer of hope that there's damage to MCL and perhaps LCL, but not the major ACL.

I don’t know the difference between an ACL MCL or LCL but I’ll buy whatever hope you’re selling

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

My point is that the rebuild didn't start in 22. It's asinine to suggest so just because Hughes came in that year or because Price came out of semi-retirement to give us one last push.

The rebuild began with Hughes. Before that there was no plan whatsoever. And look at what was happening with our prospects, almost all of them underperformed. Caufield's a great example of a prospect who would've been wasted under that regime.

We're now at the point where we can start to maybe think about the playoffs. Laine was supposed to be secondary scoring as a means to that end. Him going away doesn't really affect much in the grand scheme of things. We can just replace him with somebody else if need be. Secondary scoring isn't hard to find.

 

[Mrb1p]

I'm not sure what to say to this. 55-68-76 point seasons is huge progression. We have the best first line we've had in 30 years and they're only going to improve further.

Hage has top six potential to go with Demidov. So does Roy. And we already have guys who've recently graduated. It's a really young top six as is.

Not only have we been progressing, we've been stockpiling young talent along the way. This is what rebuilding looks like.

Laine was secondary scoring wrapped in a lottery ticket. Him going down affects us very little in the grand scheme of things. I get being bummed but it's ridiculous to think this somehow changes anything for us long term. It doesn't.

Yet we only progressed 4 spots in the standings over 36 months. Not exactly huge progression

I think we're lying to ourselves if we say last year was progression. Slaf progressed, who else did? Suzuki solidified himself as an elite 1C but we (not you ) already knew that, Caufield clearly regressed, guhle stagnated, newhook had someone of an upward trajectory but it's hard to say if it's sustainable, etc. Team wide we didn't progress.

Bottom line is, I don't want another year like last year. It's demoralizing to the fans but also more importantly to the players. They'll be forced once again for a whole year to regurgitate the same old platitudes. Not good for morals.

Compare this to the western front from 14 to 16.

 

[Habs]

Molson did something to get this curse. I just know it. I’ve never seen it this bad. Maybe rename the building the Bell Forum? Try and fool the curse?

When the changed the bottom of the boards from Blue to Yellow it all went to shit.

 

[SwiftyHab]

Based on this dr’s opinion only seeing the hit, worst case scenario is the whole season, best case is 2 months

https://www.tvasports.ca/2024/09/30/le-pire-scenario-et-la-lueur-despoir-un-medecin-se-prononce-sur-la-blessure-de-laine

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yet we only progressed 4 spots in the standings over 36 months. Not exactly huge progression

It doesn't matter. The team is getting better. That's what matters.

55 to 76 points is a huge jump no matter how you slice it.

I think we're lying to ourselves if we say last year was progression. Slaf progressed, who else did? Suzuki solidified himself as an elite 1C but we (not you ) already knew that,

Suzuki grew by leaps and bounds in the 2nd half. No he did not play like a legit 1st line center before that. He's a great example of progression.

Caufield clearly regressed, guhle stagnated, newhook had someone of an upward trajectory but it's hard to say if it's sustainable, etc. Team wide we didn't progress.

All of those examples are cases of injury. They are not the case of players naturally 'regressing.' Moreover, Newhook played fantastically well when healthy. Caufield's underlying numbers were great and on a normal season would've resulted in 45-50 goals. Guhle continues to grow into the role of number one.

All of those players improved last year despite the injury challenges they had. Slafkovsky is another guy who grew by leaps and bounds.

Bottom line is, I don't want another year like last year. It's demoralizing to the fans but also more importantly to the players. They'll be forced once again for a whole year to regurgitate the same old platitudes. Not good for morals.

Compare this to the western front from 14 to 16.

I don't want another year like last season either. But that's almost entirely due to the injuries we suffered.

There's absolutely nothing mgmt can do about that. Even Laine - a player I saw as an injury risk when we acquired him - had a brutal injury that was unpredictable. That could've happened to any of our players.

If our club was healthier last year we might well have made the playoffs. Absolutely we've progressed.

 

[Mrb1p]

It doesn't matter. The team is getting better. That's what matters.

55 to 76 points is a huge jump no matter how you slice it.

Suzuki grew by leaps and bounds in the 2nd half. No he did not play like a legit 1st line center before that. He's a great example of progression.

All of those examples are cases of injury. They are not the case of players naturally 'regressing.' Moreover, Newhook played fantastically well when healthy. Caufield's underlying numbers were great and on a normal season would've resulted in 45-50 goals. Guhle continues to grow into the role of number one.

All of those players improved last year despite the injury challenges they had.

I don't want another year like last season either. But that's almost entirely due to the injuries we suffered.

There's absolutely nothing mgmt can do about that. Even Laine - a player I saw as an injury risk when we acquired him - had a brutal injury that was unpredictable. That could've happened to any of our players.

If our club was healthier last year we might well have made the playoffs. Absolutely we've progressed.

Is it injuries or lack of depth?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Is it injuries or lack of depth?

Injuries.

No team can get those kinds of catostrophic hits and not be affected. And we STILL improved to 76 points. Caufield alone could've given us another 25 goals if he'd been healthy.

 

[417]

Based on this dr’s opinion only seeing the hit, worst case scenario is the whole season, best case is 2 months

https://www.tvasports.ca/2024/09/30/le-pire-scenario-et-la-lueur-despoir-un-medecin-se-prononce-sur-la-blessure-de-laine

So the doctor is saying based on what he saw, there's 100% chance of damage to the MCL and about a 50% chance to damage to the ACL

The latter of which would be the worse case scenario.

 

[junyab]

We weren't rebuilding when MB was here. That notion is most likely based on our standings only.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I’m not interested in speculatives. Let me know how long he’s out when we know the damn answer. These guesses of 6/8 weeks to forever are just not helpful.

I am not a Dr and could make this claim and I would almost be guaranteed to be right. Give me something of value please.

 

[Habby4Life]

And what are my expectations exactly which you call unrealistic?

I mentioned needing being entertained if I’m going to watch, and that adding elite talent to the team is great for player development. And stated my belief perpetual losers don’t learn how to win. Guy like Laine adresses much of that. I believe it trumps tanking at this point.

Man I miss watching guys like Naslund!!

That 86 team, being a surprise cup winner was stacked. Its sad to watch the habs today when I remember Chelios, Naslund, Smith, Richer, Lemieux, Skrudland, Carbo, Roy, Ludwig, Gainey, Walter, etc.

Been a while since I have seen an entertaining Habs team, looks like it will be many more years to come.

 

[CrAzYNiNe]

It is weird if there's ACL damage, even suspected, that they'd let him put ANY pressure on it so soon after the incident.

Perhaps a small, tiny glimmer of hope that there's damage to MCL and perhaps LCL, but not the major ACL.

I also found it weird to see him on the bench with a brace on. I’m no doctor, but I have hurt my knee playing football, so I know a thing or two about the pain management.

I’m only able to take this is a positive, hopefully we won’t get the bad news that we are both in denial with said hope.

 

[Naslundforever]

I'm not sure what to say to this. 55-68-76 point seasons is huge progression. We have the best first line we've had in 30 years and they're only going to improve further.

Hage has top six potential to go with Demidov. So does Roy. And we already have guys who've recently graduated. It's a really young top six as is.

Not only have we been progressing, we've been stockpiling young talent along the way. This is what rebuilding looks like.

Laine was secondary scoring wrapped in a lottery ticket. Him going down affects us very little in the grand scheme of things. I get being bummed but it's ridiculous to think this somehow changes anything for us long term. It doesn't.

Maybe I should have phrased it as “I don’t see progress that is trending to a contending team”. I think Suzuki has reached potential, which is about the 30th scorer in the league. Best hab 1st line in a while no way makes it a top nhl line. Special teams are worst in league, and goal differential if super bad. Standings are in the basement.

It’s fun for prospect lovers, and I get it - that’s what this site is about. The thing about “long-term” is that it has become.. long. I see progress by subtraction of all those bad contracts, mais c’est pas mal ça. I don’t think Roy is top 6 at all btw. Listen I love the optimism and how following prospects is really fun, just the product is still really bad.

 

[Mrb1p]

Injuries.

No team can get those kinds of catostrophic hits and not be affected. And we STILL improved to 76 points. Caufield alone could've given us another 25 goals if he'd been healthy.

I'd argue it's depth.

We had two injuries to our top 9 and we had guys like Evans, Gally, Andy and Pearson in our top 6, at the same time.

This team lacks depth and has lacked depth since last year. Laine was a fine addition for that, but we're still missing at least one decent top 9er to be solid.

I think it's underappreciated how bad Andy, Pearson, Gally, Evans, Dvorak AND RHP are as top 9 players.

 

[SwiftyHab]

So if we assume that since hes allowed to put pressure on it that it’s more likely the MCL and therefore could be out for just 2 months or so instead of the whole season?

Are we allowed to be lucky?

So the doctor is saying based on what he saw, there's 100% chance of damage to the MCL and about a 50% chance to damage to the ACL

The latter of which would be the worse case scenario.

 

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Sad really. Last we 4 periods from Kirby and this year we will get 4 periods from Patrick.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Maybe I should have phrased it as “I don’t see progress that is trending to a contending team”. I think Suzuki has reached potential, which is about the 30th scorer in the league. Best hab 1st line in a while no way makes it a top nhl line. Special teams are worst in league, and goal differential if super bad. Standings are in the basement.

The cake is half baked. Here are the players that haven't shown what they can do and will be coming in future seasons.

Demidov
RB
Mailloux
Roy
Hage
Beck
Barron
Xejac

Even players like Slaf, CC and Ghule haven't shown what they can do yet. There's a lot more coming. The influx of talent is going to be insane over the next few years.

It’s fun for prospect lovers, and I get it - that’s what this site is about. The thing about “long-term” is that it has become.. long. I see progress by subtraction of all those bad contracts, mais c’est pas mal ça. I don’t think Roy is top 6 at all btw. Listen I love the optimism and how following prospects is really fun, just the product is still really bad.

Well, yeah. It's long. What made you think it wouldn't be?

Rebuilds take time. You accumulate the best young talent you can and then you develop it. We're already seeing improvements. No reason to believe that won't continue to happen. Now maybe it doesn't happen every year. That's entirely possible and injuries are a huge variable on that front. But barring more insane stuff happening, I think we'll be a 85-92 point team. If not? I'm not worried. Sometimes it's a step back.

We're still a really young team. Our D is unproven, our goaltending is unproven... we could shit the bed. But I expect that our key players will continue to improve. We'll see steps forward on that front and that's what's important. And if certain players don't work out we have tons of picks/prospects/players/cap space to play with. That's why we were able to get Laine to begin with.

 

[Mrb1p]

We weren't rebuilding when MB was here. That notion is most likely based on our standings only.

What would you call trading your 40g scoring captain then?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I'd argue it's depth.

We had two injuries to our top 9 and we had guys like Evans, Gally, Andy and Pearson in our top 6, at the same time.

You cannot lose Kirby Dach for 82 games, have Caufiled with a bum shoulder and then lose Newhook for half a season and not have it affect you. Guhle couldn't stay healthy either.

And yet we still improved. Still went up ten points. Suzuki got much, much better. Slafkovsky arrived. CC's game was perfect except for his shot. Nothing to be upset about except injuries were insane.

It's one thing to have injuries, it's another to lose guys when they've played like one game. We were a very young team to begin with. Even if we'd had Dach for half a year that would've easily been another 30 points. CC would've been another 20-25 goals. That's an insane amount of offense to lose.

This team lacks depth and has lacked depth since last year. Laine was a fine addition for that, but we're still missing at least one decent top 9er to be solid.

I think it's underappreciated how bad Andy, Pearson, Gally, Evans, Dvorak AND RHP are as top 9 players.

Laine was brought in for depth purposes. Guess what? We can't control what happened there. It is what it is.

But we've still got Roy. I still want to see what he can do. Yeah he's young but he needs to be given a chance.

And again, depth is easy to replace. We can go out and get a Toffoli or somebody like that if we really need to. Losing Laine is no big deal.