Player Discussion Patrik Laine: ruining the tank

[Mrb1p]

I feel like you are intentionally being disingenuous because you want to continue to prop up this silly claim that the Canadiens are five plus years into their rebuild.

I don't believe, for one moment, that you're not aware of the situation regarding Max Pacioretty and the Canadiens at the time of the trade. He was the captain of the team and during the 2017-18 season, he requested a trade from the team.

The Canadiens were then unable to extend him, as he wanted to leave town, and he made it known that once the season began, he was not even going to entertain a contract offer and would walk to free agency.

This is the Montréal Canadiens forum, everybody here knows all of this - including you - so I don't get the point of you pretending this trade was about a "rebuild."

(I also don't get why you're pretending he's a 40 goal scorer, when, again, you know he wasn't and so does everyone else here.)

So what did Bergevin do? He traded his first line forward equally useful player, right? He traded for another top liner? A top pair D?

Oh no, he got a blue chip prospect, a cap dump and a pick.

 

[ReHabs]

Literally not what I said. People act like a rebuild is some sacred ceremony and only once you truly decide that you're rebuilding, you're rebuilding.

It's not. You can stumble into a rebuild and that's pretty much what Bergevin did

You're arguing from positions where your definition of a rebuild is completely different.

And, predictably, neither of you or your conversation partners is making any attempt at finding common ground and a common, shared definition.

This is really dumb. At least try to hammer out some common ground and build your arguments off that.

 

[sampollock]

I dislike the figs more now.

not sure why but this really kicks me wanting to get into the team this year

 

[Mrb1p]

The rebuild didn’t start until Bergevin was fired. It should’ve started when we tanked in 2018, but it didn’t. He added pieces like Suzuki, Caufield, etc but he was still making moves to make the playoffs. Bergevin and Molson made it clear threw their own words that they weren’t rebuilding. They waited until Price and Weber were so broken that they couldn’t play and the core was completely broken before they pulled the pin.

It doesn't matter what they said or made us think. What moves did they make to compete? They spent 3rd rounders? On the other end they added Suzuki, picked Caufield, Guhle, Kotkaniemi... Had like 7 picks in the top 60 of the 2018 draft.

Let go of the term rebuild, and just call it accumulation vs depletion of assets. Again, I'll say it for another million times, the phrase "we are rebuilding" doesn't reset your competing window. The players you decide to base your rebuild on do.

Suzuki, Caufield, Dach, newhook, Guhle, Xhekaj, Struble are all born within a 29 months period. That is the competing window no matter how we want to twist the "rebuild started on X and Y because of the moon position" these players are all primed, right now, today and have 5 to 7 years left.

 

[salbutera]

So what did Bergevin do? He traded his first line forward equally useful player, right? He traded for another top liner? A top pair D?

Oh no, he got a blue chip prospect, a cap dump and a pick.

He stated very clearly they were “retooling on the fly”, just as Molson said very clearly on Mitch Melnick’s show in July of 2017, they had a “plan in place with allocated $ for Markov & Radulov, and Drouin acquisition was to add to offense since rebuilding was not an option for the ownership consortium”

 

[Justin11]

It seems the entire hockey community have info on both Reinbacher and Laine, why don't Habs just send out the info that everyone already seems to know?

 

[sampollock]

It seems the entire hockey community have info on both Reinbacher and Laine, why don't Habs just send out the info that everyone already seems to know?

probably book surgery then they know timeline

 

[Mrb1p]

You're arguing from positions where your definition of a rebuild is completely different.

And, predictably, neither of you or your conversation partners is making any attempt at finding common ground and a common, shared definition.

This is really dumb. At least try to hammer out some common ground and build your arguments off that.

I've clarified a hundred thousands times that a rebuild is just a buzzword used.

"Were only in year 3 of the rebuild! They take X year" (X being whatever year we're in +2)

The rebuild started the moment they invested in an age group. Ours being the 2017-2020 draft group.

Suzuki, Caufield, Guhle, Dach, Newhook, Xhekaj, Struble. 4 of them are absolute core players. It's too big of a portion of the roster to "start" the team building at 5 years after the oldest player was drafted.

 

[Habby4Life]

How do you leave out Larry?!?

Yeah, no excuse for that!

 

[Mrb1p]

He stated very clearly they were “retooling on the fly”, just as Molson said very clearly on Mitch Melnick’s show in July of 2017, they had a “plan in place with allocated $ for Markov & Radulov, and Drouin acquisition was to add to offense since rebuilding was not an option for the ownership consortium”

That's a year earlier. Drouin was 2017 and Max was 2018.

 

[Skip Bayless]

Kinda funny that people take it as "not good", when I feel like the fact he's putting a little weight on his leg and walking around with an articulated brace means it doesn't require a totally knee reconstruction...which is good.

Nah man, the full reconstruction is still a high probability.

 

[nhlfan9191]

It doesn't matter what they said or made us think. What moves did they make to compete? They spent 3rd rounders? On the other end they added Suzuki, picked Caufield, Guhle, Kotkaniemi... Had like 7 picks in the top 60 of the 2018 draft.

Let go of the term rebuild, and just call it accumulation vs depletion of assets. Again, I'll say it for another million times, the phrase "we are rebuilding" doesn't reset your competing window. The players you decide to base your rebuild on do.

Suzuki, Caufield, Dach, newhook, Guhle, Xhekaj, Struble are all born within a 29 months period. That is the competing window no matter how we want to twist the "rebuild started on X and Y because of the moon position" these players are all primed, right now, today and have 5 to 7 years left.

In 2018, the excuse was Price wasn’t healthy and had a bad year and Weber was hurt. It was a fluke. In 2019, the team barely missed the playoffs. They were strong after Weber returned 2 months into that season. In 2020, the team underachieved. That led to them adding Anderson, Toffoli, Chariot, Edmunston, Allen, etc the next offseason. Teams in a rebuild don’t make moves like that. If Bergevin was in a rebuild at any point in his tenure, Price, Weber, Gallagher, Petry, and the rest of the core would’ve been blown up when they had value and that never happened. Caufield and Guhle were just good mid first round picks and they got Suzuki out of dumb luck for a disgruntled player in Pacioretty who wanted out.

 

[Gravity]

Who cares about Bergevin and his lack of direction? I come to the Laine thread expecting to read updates about Laine, not bickering about how Bergevin never had a sense of direction.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It doesn't matter what they said or made us think. What moves did they make to compete? They spent 3rd rounders? On the other end they added Suzuki, picked Caufield, Guhle, Kotkaniemi... Had like 7 picks in the top 60 of the 2018 draft.

Let go of the term rebuild, and just call it accumulation vs depletion of assets. Again, I'll say it for another million times, the phrase "we are rebuilding" doesn't reset your competing window. The players you decide to base your rebuild on do.

Suzuki, Caufield, Dach, newhook, Guhle, Xhekaj, Struble are all born within a 29 months period. That is the competing window no matter how we want to twist the "rebuild started on X and Y because of the moon position" these players are all primed, right now, today and have 5 to 7 years left.

Nobody would say that the new geime didn’t come in with some good prospects- but they DEVELOPED those prospects far better than they otherwise would’ve been.

The previous regime had a great track record of ruining prospects. That was continuing with Caufield btw. The new regime came in with a completely different philosophy and now all of a sudden our prospects are panning out.

That would not have happened under MB.

 

[Mrb1p]

Nobody would say that the new geime didn’t come in with some good prospects- but they DEVELOPED those prospects far better than they otherwise would’ve been.

The previous regime had a great track record of ruining prospects. That was continuing with Caufield btw. The new regime came in with a completely different philosophy and now all of a sudden our prospects are panning out.

That would not have happened under MB.

Yes none of that matters.

The winning window is all that matters. That's why the talk of "year 3" is asinine.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Who cares about Bergevin and his lack of direction? I come to the Laine thread expecting to read updates about Laine, not bickering about how Bergevin never had a sense of direction.

There are no updates.

Hopefully tonight at the earliest.

 

[Habssince89]

It seems the entire hockey community have info on both Reinbacher and Laine, why don't Habs just send out the info that everyone already seems to know?

bolded the key word here. Until there's an official annoucement, its clickbait gossip.

We can expect generally that PL and DR will be out for a while, but its the media that's preying on habs fans because they know it will drive views. I'm not suggesting there's good news ahead, but I doubt anyone knows the full truth. It's a bunch of speculation. Even the doctors who have commented (from what I've seen) are only speculating and being explicit about how they don't have a source.

 

[LaP]

I'm not sure what to say to this. 55-68-76 point seasons is huge progression. We have the best first line we've had in 30 years and they're only going to improve further.

Hage has top six potential to go with Demidov. So does Roy. And we already have guys who've recently graduated. It's a really young top six as is.

Not only have we been progressing, we've been stockpiling young talent along the way. This is what rebuilding looks like.

Laine was secondary scoring wrapped in a lottery ticket. Him going down affects us very little in the grand scheme of things. I get being bummed but it's ridiculous to think this somehow changes anything for us long term. It doesn't.

You don't get it man. We lost two pre-season games and Laine got injured. The sky is falling, it's over, we'll finish last in the league for the next 10 years.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yes none of that matters.

The winning window is all that matters. That's why the talk of "year 3" is asinine.

The rebuild will be done when it’s done. It’s silly to try to put a timetable on it. It doesn’t work that way.

It’s fine to add secondary scoring (Laine) along the way. But the rebuild will come from the core you’re building with and most of those guys are either not on the team yet or just getting started.

People need to stop putting hourglasses on the table and asking ‘are we there yet?’ No we’re not. And we’re not going to be there for a while.

 

[Redux91]

I dislike the figs more now.

not sure why but this really kicks me wanting to get into the team this year

It's weird for me

It's like I dislike.. the Marlies more now..?

 

[LaP]

bolded the key word here. Until there's an official annoucement, its clickbait gossip.

We can expect generally that PL and DR will be out for a while, but its the media that's preying on habs fans because they know it will drive views. I'm not suggesting there's good news ahead, but I doubt anyone knows the full truth. It's a bunch of speculation. Even the doctors who have commented (from what I've seen) are only speculating and being explicit about how they don't have a source.

I did the mistake to click on a HABSolument fantastic link this morning. The title said they had information on Laine' injury. The article was just baseless speculation trash as usual.

 

[Habssince89]

Nobody would say that the new geime didn’t come in with some good prospects- but they DEVELOPED those prospects far better than they otherwise would’ve been.

The previous regime had a great track record of ruining prospects. That was continuing with Caufield btw. The new regime came in with a completely different philosophy and now all of a sudden our prospects are panning out.

That would not have happened under MB.

Hughes has great people-judgement skills, which doesn't surprise me as he was an agent. Not only does he seem to be picking good draftees, but he's also seems to be running a much more merit-based front office, instead of the usual Jurassic park country club

 

[River Meadow]

It's weird for me

It's like I dislike.. the Marlies more now..?

I dislike the ECHL more now

 

[Habby4Life]

Delete

 

[ReHabs]

I've clarified a hundred thousands times that a rebuild is just a buzzword used.

"Were only in year 3 of the rebuild! They take X year" (X being whatever year we're in +2)

The rebuild started the moment they invested in an age group. Ours being the 2017-2020 draft group.

That's a very specious definition.

Suzuki, Caufield, Guhle, Dach, Newhook, Xhekaj, Struble. 4 of them are absolute core players. It's too big of a portion of the roster to "start" the team building at 5 years after the oldest player was drafted.

What do you mean "'start' the team building"?