Player Discussion Patrik Laine: ruining the tank

[BLONG7]

Why it would be embarrassing? Ir's not like i am happy he got injured or anything. I am just being a realist. Laine has a long list of injuries and hasn't played more than 60 games since before Covid.
If Laine wasn't so fragile, Columbus would have never paid us to take him.

A guy kneed him................nothing anyone can do when another player does this......

 

[Retired]

Don't know how good you are with math, but adding one year doesn't add 2-3 years of wait. Adding one year of tanking adds one year of a growth window to the window that was already there. One year adds one year. Simple, right?

The thing in all of this, is that if you look at other teams that went through rebuilds, a period of stagnation is almost unavoidable because young players get added incremenantly and teams can't avoid the ebbs and flow of development.

You can cry and pull your hair out with vigorous discontent, the team will only output to the degree of development it has reached, and as of now, we still don't have the depth nor talent to compete for a playoff spot. Sure, if everything went perfect, we might reach the playoffs, but that level of luck only comes around every so often and is probably followed by a step back the following season, and as we've seen, it still only takes one central player going down to flip the script. It's a testament to our lack of depth and a foreshadowing of the long road ahead before this team actually gets competitive.

you speak of the team and its players like a budget in excel. Balance the sheet, “save as: contender” and done, right? Pretty sure both fans and players have had enough sucking, and this idea ta bunch of under-age perpetual losers can feed off nothing but each other and magically turn it on a given year makes no sense.

 

[Tyson]

His ego? 4-5 year recovery?

This is one player i am completely at ease with getting rid of. I am done with his inconsistent play, his unwillingness to help with team toughness. He brings nothing.

A guy kneed him................nothing anyone can do when another player does this......

Exactly

 

[waffledave]

Don't know how good you are with math, but adding one year doesn't add 2-3 years of wait. Adding one year of tanking adds one year of a growth window to the window that was already there. One year adds one year. Simple, right?

The thing in all of this, is that if you look at other teams that went through rebuilds, a period of stagnation is almost unavoidable because young players get added incremenantly and teams can't avoid the ebbs and flow of development.

You can cry and pull your hair out with vigorous discontent, the team will only output to the degree of development it has reached, and as of now, we still don't have the depth nor talent to compete for a playoff spot. Sure, if everything went perfect, we might reach the playoffs, but that level of luck only comes around every so often and is probably followed by a step back the following season, and as we've seen, it still only takes one central player going down to flip the script. It's a testament to our lack of depth and a foreshadowing of the long road ahead before this team actually gets competitive.

The window is capped at 2029 which is when Suzuki's contract is up. Extending the tank for another 2 years doesn't extend it by 2 years, it eats up 2+ more years of Suzuki's (and Caufield's and Salfkovsky's) current contract years which is the most likely time this group will win a cup. And that's assuming these magical theoretical fix-all players will be in the NHL right away.

If the current group is so far away that we need another 2 years of tanking before we can expect improvement, then the current group isn't going to get it done within the contract window we currently have. So might as well trade Suzuki and probably Caufield too while they still have value. The tankers would probably f***ing love that, come to think of it.

 

[Mrb1p]

This is entirely false and can be (and I have several times) debunked quite easily.

ANY team that wins the Cup, is built by MANY different avenues.

Example:

Yes the Caps tanked to get Ovechkin and Backstrom…but they didn't win the Cup until they drafted

- John Carlson
- Tom Wilson
- Brayden Holtby
- Evegent Kuznetsov
- Dmitri Orlov

(none of these players were drafted in top 15)

Traded for

- TJ Oshie
- Lars Eller
- Matt Niskanen

Its quite easy, see lazy, to just ignore all of those key players who came AFTER the Caps tanked and drafted Ovechkin and Backstrom and were instrumental in the latter 2 finally winning their one and only Cup (after multiple years of failing).

But some folks base their opinions on “feelings”. You for exammple.

I prefer basing my opinion on FACTS.

There isn't a SINGLE way to win a Cup, of course it helps to get lucky to draft a generational player, but that's far from a guarantee and its never proven to be enough on its own.

You can look at how the Hawks were built when they won, or the Kings and even the Penguins.

But I doubt that will stop you from parroting that lazy narrative that teams win BECAUSE of tanking.

Hell the Oilers have drafted two of the best players of our generation (McDavid/Draisaitl) and the closest they've got to winning a Cup was this past year and that was AFTER they made SEVERAL signings/trades (Hyman, Ekholm).

Yawn

Ya very eloquent here's a sticker bud

 

[red devil]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1840768964298744083

 

[waffledave]

you speak of the team and its players like a budget in excel. Balance the sheet, “save as: contender” and done, right? Pretty sure both fans and players have had enough sucking, and this idea ta bunch of under-age perpetual losers can feed off nothing but each other and magically turn it on a given year makes no sense.

I'm sure Suzuki and Caufield are just holding back. Once they are told they can try we'll suddenly see 90 pts and 50 goals from these guys.

 

[Rapala]

just one more tank bro. i promise bro just one more tank and it'll fix everything bro. bro. just one more tank. please just one more. one more tank and we can this whole problem bro. bro cmon just give me one more tank i promise bro. bro bro please i just need one more more tank

The mainstream is not looking for a tank at all.
The reality is we were very likely not a playoff team even with Laine and if we were certainly not a very good one.
The truth of the matter is we still have some significant holes to shore up before we can get there.
The gap between having a good to very good goal differential is just too much to overcome with this group.
What we should be focusing on is taking the next step on that quest which isn't tanking.
By the time TDL comes around I think pulling the tent pegs and selling will become an obvious strategy.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

you speak of the team and its players like a budget in excel. Balance the sheet, “save as: contender” and done, right? Pretty sure both fans and players have had enough sucking, and this idea ta bunch of under-age perpetual losers can feed off nothing but each other and magically turn it on a given year makes no sense.

It makes no sense because you add all sorts of reductive conclusions I don't hold or have never spoken.

I speak of ebbs and flow of development, yet you describe it in a completely dishonest, opposite and immature way. You need to create all those strawmen because you are unable to argue against the actual logic I bring forth.

You bring the team over the hump by adding them year after year, developing them year after year, until you reach that treshhold where there's enough talent and depth. This paints a picture of a rollercoaster ride, with ups and downs, not the irrealistic constant progression you expect.

Do you really think we have the depth required to mitigate the inevitable injuries we get?

 

[Habby4Life]

The window is capped at 2029 which is when Suzuki's contract is up. Extending the tank for another 2 years doesn't extend it by 2 years, it eats up 2+ more years of Suzuki's (and Caufield's and Salfkovsky's) current contract years which is the most likely time this group will win a cup. And that's assuming these magical theoretical fix-all players will be in the NHL right away.

If the current group is so far away that we need another 2 years of tanking before we can expect improvement, then the current group isn't going to get it done within the contract window we currently have. So might as well trade Suzuki and probably Caufield too while they still have value. The tankers would probably f***ing love that, come to think of it.

Well said.

It's apparent this season will be tough and another lottery pick. The year after they are not going to rocket up the standings, shit they will be battling to be in the mix. So now we are at three seasons out, ffs.

Lets go that route and we too can be Buffalo.

Maybe there is a silver lining, if Laine would have scored 30 goals we might have to offer him a new contract, lol.

 

[waffledave]

It makes no sense because you add all sorts of reductive conclusions I don't hold or have never spoken.

I speak of ebbs and flow of development, yet you describe it in a completely dishonest, opposite and immature way. You need to create all those strawmen because you are unable to argue against the actual logic I bring forth.

You bring the team over the hump by adding them year after year, developing them year after year, until you reach that treshhold where there's enough talent and depth. This paints a picture of a rollercoaster ride, with ups and downs, not the irrealistic constant progression you expect.

Do you really think we have the depth required to mitigate the inevitable injuries we get?

Depth players aren't acquired by tanking. The players you take with high-end picks are usually boom or bust rather than guys who hope will round out the 3rd line.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

The window is capped at 2029 which is when Suzuki's contract is up.

Riiiight... i forgot how it will be impossible to re-sign Suzuki. Silly me.

Go reread what the Habs brass have said since Hugo have taken over. They want something long lasting, not something that arbitrarily ends on a single player's contract ending.

 

[JustPenalties]

So is Laine now officially the highest paid Fortnite player?

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Depth players aren't acquired by tanking. The players you take with high-end picks are usually boom or bust rather than guys who hope will round out the 3rd line.

Depth players are as consistently added with the overall talent. Depth is yoyr entire collection of talent, including your elite talent. Have we added Reinbacher yet? Have we added Demidov yet? Hage? Mailloux. All talent is part of depth.

 

[waffledave]

Riiiight... i forgot how it will be impossible to re-sign Suzuki. Silly me.

Go reread what the Habs brass have said since Hugo have taken over. They want something long lasting, not something that arbitrarily ends on a single player's contract ending.

And I guess part of this mystical plan includes Suzuki signing a team friendly contract after he spent the majority of his 8 best hockey years on a lottery team.

 

[GrandBison]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1840768964298744083

If they need more tests it could be that what they see isn't that bad... or not

 

[HomaridII]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1840771418830651808

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I'm sure Suzuki and Caufield are just holding back. Once they are told they can try we'll suddenly see 90 pts and 50 goals from these guys.

One more ridiculous strawman

Where's Demidov? Where's Reinbacher? Where's Mailloux? Where's Hage?

They won't magically appear in one fell swooop. Talent needs to be added to reach the threshhold. That talent needs to be developed. Lack of depth can't be overcomed without adding that talent.

 

[waffledave]

Depth players are as consistently added with the overall talent. Depth is yoyr entire collection of talent, including your elite talent. Have we added Reinbacher yet? Have we added Demidov yet? Hage? Mailloux. All talent is part of depth.

Only if they make the NHL. A guy like Mailloux isn't going to be a worthwhile NHLer if he doesn't end up being able to man a PP or put up some decent numbers.

 

[SwiftyHab]

Dave pagnotta just reported that Laine is at the rink now. Maybe a sign it’s not a season ending injury ?

 

[Captain Mountain]

The window is capped at 2029 which is when Suzuki's contract is up. Extending the tank for another 2 years doesn't extend it by 2 years, it eats up 2+ more years of Suzuki's (and Caufield's and Salfkovsky's) current contract years which is the most likely time this group will win a cup. And that's assuming these magical theoretical fix-all players will be in the NHL right away.

If the current group is so far away that we need another 2 years of tanking before we can expect improvement, then the current group isn't going to get it done within the contract window we currently have. So might as well trade Suzuki and probably Caufield too while they still have value. The tankers would probably f***ing love that, come to think of it.

2029 is too far in the future to make that kind of claim, especially without considering what the cap might be. And lets be real, the Oilers window wont close when players like Draisaitl and McDavid have new contracts kick in, so the claim that any window is capped by the expiry of a contract of a player like Suzuki is just an admission that there never was a window to begin with.

This in general seems like a... misguided, but common, view of Montreal's rebuild in the past and what it may be in the future.

One thing is a misunderstanding of what tanking is - Montreal hasn't really "tanked" in this rebuild except perhaps when it was selling in the middle of the 2021-2022 season. They have also actively traded picks and prospects/young NHLers every offseason to add NHLers that perhaps fit a better window and need. Its always been about building a critical mass of similarly aged players. But the only way for Montreal to shift to the next stage of the rebuild is for young guys demonstrating the ability to play core roles on a contender caliber roster.

People are complaining about watching an un-competitive team, but it always tends to sound a little like calls for the team to go back to Bergevin's "retool" or ill-advised jumpstarts like what Detroit, Buffalo and Ottawa have tried.

 

[Habsfan18]

If they need more tests it could be that what they see isn't that bad... or not

Likely waiting for swelling to go down.

 

[sampollock]

Embarrassing take.....expected injury lol

Agreed. poor comment.. to be expected. sad really to say that

 

[waffledave]

Dave pagnotta just reported that Laine is at the rink now. Maybe a sign it’s not a season ending injury ?

Well he's at the rink on crutches to be fair.

 

[BergevinBurner]

Dave pagnotta just reported that Laine is at the rink now. Maybe a sign it’s not a season ending injury ?

Dach was constantly around the team last year too after his season ending injury.