Player Discussion Patrik Laine: Part 2 - Healthy Living Edition

[Marioesque]

That's ridiculous. He looks like a 39 years old out there laboring and lumbering across the ice aimlessly.

How do you guys overlook the obvious issues Laine has been facing in his skating and agility? He is a liability out there. He needs to get himself fixed, whether its surgery or other means.

I don't think anyone has overlooked the injury and the effect it had on his skating.

But no, your assessment is really off. Last two games he's been moving really well from what I have seen (I missed the first two periods last game).

You're exaggerating so bad with no evidence, just appealing to emotions like "can't you see!!"

No, I see what I see and what you're saying is hyperbolic garbage and just bad analysis of visual data.

AHL level liability, 39 years old.

I don't care at all how it looks like. Even if you are napping , laying down at center ice for 20 minutes but you score 4 goals from there while 1 being scored against you, I want that.

I got no effin use for guys who look busy and get nothing done. I would much, much rather always have a guy that makes the most difficult thing in hockey look too easy. That's what wins hockey games, not "looking busy".

 

[Marioesque]

I think it's more he hasn't really earned that privilege this year. Maybe after a great offseason and if comes to camp healthy, he can push the issue next season.

There's more depth next season so 2nd line will become viable.

But I don't get the "earned" aspect at all. He's the "veteran" here with the highest ppg of the group. If anyone has earned then that would be him.

I get why Slaf plays 1st, spread the wealth. He can be more useful there, he'd just get frustrated and lose confidence in the 2nd. Like he did when he played in it. Best to have him in that familiar line where he can build his confidence.

I'd give Kapanen a try in 2nd and see how Newhook does in 3rd, but there's not much options this season to test with.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

I don't think anyone has overlooked the injury and the effect it had on his skating.

But no, your assessment is really off. Last two games he's been moving really well from what I have seen (I missed the first two periods last game).

You're exaggerating so bad with no evidence, just appealing to emotions like "can't you see!!"

No, I see what I see and what you're saying is hyperbolic garbage and just bad analysis of visual data.

AHL level liability, 39 years old.

I don't care at all how it looks like. Even if you are napping , laying down at center ice for 20 minutes but you score 4 goals from there while 1 being scored against you, I want that.

I got no effin use for guys who look busy and get nothing done. I would much, much rather always have a guy that makes the most difficult thing in hockey look too easy. That's what wins hockey games, not "looking busy".

His lack of skating/ effort results in goals against. Hence the liability. How many even strength points does Laine have?

He hurts more than he helps. If not for the PP, he would not have a roster spot.

 

[Marioesque]

His lack of skating/ effort results in goals against.

When was the last time? Which goal?

In the game against Florida he was probably the most notable backchecker with a couple of really nice reaches where he poked the puck away and stopped entry and gained possession.

Hence the liability.

Yeah but you're just fine with guys who look busier and leak a lot more goals .

How many even strength points does Laine have?

As much as reasonable people could expect in statistically worst line in the league before Laine ever played in it. Nobody is successful in that line, they have tried many options and none work with that line. It has nothing to do with Laine. When he played with Evans and Armia in 3rd, the 2nd line was still leaking goals,

He hurts more than he helps. If not for the PP, he would not have a roster spot.

That's just how you feel. You can't actually quantify it in any substancial way. It's justabout how he looks to you and how you feel about it. Statistics do not support your nonsense at all.

Below AHL level skating.....Laine with a knee brace after major injury has had top speed of 21.79 mph and Cole Caufield, bonafide NHL first line skater, has a massive advantage with 22.08 mph. Slaf with 22.04 mph.

That's the difference between NHL first line and below AHL. 0.25 mph difference. Good analysis bro. You have a bright future.

This team wouldn't be sniffing the playoffs if he didn't decide to play through his injury and opted not to have surgery.

There would be no meaningful games this late. We'd be cursing wins, hoping for high draft position.

Some respect should be due. Like a modicum.

 

[26Mats]

I believe Monahan chose not to sign with us because he wanted to play with his best friend in Columbus.

Where did you hear Hughes was ready to make that kind of offer?

 

[Junohockeyfan]

When was the last time? Which goal?

In the game against Florida he was probably the most notable backchecker with a couple of really nice reaches where he poked the puck away and stopped entry and gained possession.


Yeah but you're just fine with guys who look busier and leak a lot more goals .



As much as reasonable people could expect in statistically worst line in the league before Laine ever played in it. Nobody is successful in that line, they have tried many options and none work with that line. It has nothing to do with Laine. When he played with Evans and Armia in 3rd, the 2nd line was still leaking goals,



That's just how you feel. You can't actually quantify it in any substancial way. It's justabout how he looks to you and how you feel about it. Statistics do not support your nonsense at all.

Below AHL level skating.....Laine with a knee brace after major injury has had top speed of 21.79 mph and Cole Caufield, bonafide NHL first line skater, has a massive advantage with 22.08 mph. Slaf with 22.04 mph.

That's the difference between NHL first line and below AHL. 0.25 mph difference. Good analysis bro. You have a bright future.

This team wouldn't be sniffing the playoffs if he didn't decide to play through his injury and opted not to have surgery.

There would be no meaningful games this late. We'd be cursing wins, hoping for high draft position.

Some respect should be due. Like a modicum.

The team is better with a healthy Laine. The version we are seeing is a broken liability. He needs to get himself healthy.

Watch the first period of the B game as that was very indicative of the issues. Laine was just useless and was hurting his linemates. He was invisible in the 2nd and 3rd which is actually a positive.

 

[Marioesque]

The team is better with a healthy Laine.

Agreed.

The version we are seeing is a broken liability. He needs to get himself healthy.

He's been looking pretty good recently. Still plays ridiculously low minutes.

Watch the first period of the B game as that was very indicative of the issues.

No, I don't have access to the first period. And you didn't point to a goal that he caused with his lack of skating. I remember one, but don't remember the date because it was quite a while ago. I'd need you to find an example, the latest one, so we could see how many games back you have to go to find this liability causing a goal.

Point being, if he was such a liability, it would be so much easier to find the examples of him causing goals against in just last couple of games. I'd find a Slaf one much quicker if I was trying to blame players for mistakes. But I don't find that constructive or productive.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Agreed.


He's been looking pretty good recently. Still plays ridiculously low minutes.

No, I don't have access to the first period. And you didn't point to a goal that he caused with his lack of skating. I remember one, but don't remember the date because it was quite a while ago. I'd need you to find an example, the latest one, so we could see how many games back you have to go to find this liability causing a goal.

Point being, if he was such a liability, it would be so much easier to find the examples of him causing goals against in just last couple of games. I'd find a Slaf one much quicker if I was trying to blame players for mistakes. But I don't find that constructive or productive.

I don’t have time to point the many goals against that Laine was in the ice for. If you can’t see how pathetic he looks out there, how labored his skating is, then that’s on uou. You are blind or completely biased. Because its obvious to everyone who isn’t a homer!

 

[Marioesque]

I don’t have time to point the many goals against that Laine was in the ice for.

That wasn't the argument. Goals that he caused by lack of skating effort was your own criteria so we are going strictly by the goalposts you set originally.

If it was so common, this would be an easy task.

If you can’t see how pathetic he looks out there, how labored his skating is, then that’s on uou. You are blind or completely biased. Because its obvious to everyone who isn’t a homer!

Silly appeal on emotion. "If you don't agree with my chosen narrative, you are wrong!"

 

[Junohockeyfan]

That wasn't the argument. Goals that he caused by lack of skating effort was your own criteria so we are going strictly by the goalposts you set originally.

If it was so common, this would be an easy task.


Silly appeal on emotion. "If you don't agree with my chosen narrative, you are wrong!"

And you have added nothing to support your case, because you have nothing.

Looking at Laine's Corsi stats, he is last (43%) on the team amongst forwards (with more than 12 games played). And that is with the highest OZone (74%) starts. In otherwords, with all the advantages of starting in the Ozone, Laine is the worst forward at generating shots / scoring chances 5 on 5.

So in a nutshell, he absolutely sucks at generating scoring chances despite being given the most favorable advantages. Ergo, he is a complete liability when not on the PP! Son!

 

[Marioesque]

And you have added nothing to support your case, because you have nothing.

Looking at Laine's Corsi stats, he is last (43%) on the team amongst forwards (with more than 12 games played). And that is with the highest OZone (74%) starts. In otherwords, with all the advantages of starting in the Ozone, Laine is the worst forward at generating shots / scoring chances 5 on 5.

So in a nutshell, he absolutely sucks at generating scoring chances despite being given the most favorable advantages. Ergo, he is a complete liability when not on the PP! Son!

This is your opinion on what you can conclude with the random stats you decided to cite and interpret.

Most favorable advantages, like Dach and Newhook and Roy. Oh the advantages.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

This is your opinion on what you can conclude with the random stats you decided to cite and interpret.

Most favorable advantages, like Dach and Newhook and Roy. Oh the advantages.

That's all you have to say for yourself? I provide stats that show how ineffective Laine is, coupled with how awful he looks with the eye test. And all you have is.... that's your opinion! LOL

My opinion is backed by advanced stats. Your opinion is backed by blatant homerism and irrational fanboy blindness.

You have nothing but hypocrisy! Son!

 

[Marioesque]

That's all you have to say for yourself? I provide stats that show how ineffective Laine is, coupled with how awful he looks with the eye test. And all you have is.... that's your opinion! LOL

My opinion is backed by advanced stats. Your opinion is backed by blatant homerism and irrational fanboy blindness.

You have nothing but hypocrisy! Son!

Several people have provided meaningful stats already, I don't need to repeat it.

Your chosen advanced stats are pretty useless. You're cherry picking stats that you think support your claims and make interpretations and claims from some combination of corsica and zone starts. Nonsense voodoo.

Stupid micro level analysis with micro level, hand picked samples and biased criteria selections.

I look at the players career, you can't even define what time frame you're using

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Several people have provided meaningful stats already, I don't need to repeat it.

Your chosen advanced stats are pretty useless. You're cherry picking stats that you think support your claims and make interpretations and claims from some combination of corsica and zone starts. Nonsense voodoo.

"That's just how you feel. You can't actually quantify it in any substancial way."

And then i do and you respond like a petulant child. "your stats are useless". LOL

The stats i "cherry picked" are the core stats that are used to understand a players effectiveness. Yet you fail to acknowledge how awful Laine is skating. You fail to provide any stats to indicate Laine is effective 5 on 5.

Why are you stubborn?

 

[Marioesque]

"That's just how you feel. You can't actually quantify it in any substancial way."

And then i do and you respond like a petulant child. "your stats are useless". LOL

The stats i "cherry picked" are the core stats that are used to understand a players effectiveness. Yet you fail to acknowledge how awful Laine is skating. You fail to provide any stats to indicate Laine is effective 5 on 5.

Why are you stubborn?

Meaningful way was the criteria, no?

You're picking meaningless stats and making stupid claims based on them.

And then you demand that horseshit should be taken as "evidence "

Players effectiveness is the positive difference between GA60 vs GF60. That's basically it.

Not some concoction of obscure stats that have nothing to do with effectiveness

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Meaningful way was the criteria, no?

You're picking meaningless stats and making stupid claims based on them.

And then you demand that horseshit should be taken as "evidence "

Just admit when you are wrong. There's no shame in that. Now your posts are just embarrassing. lol

 

[Marioesque]

Just admit when you are wrong. There's no shame in that. Now your posts are just embarrassing. lol

I admit when I'm wrong. This isn't one of those times.

You don't even understand the stats you're trying to sell

 

[Andrei79]

When was the last time? Which goal?

In the game against Florida he was probably the most notable backchecker with a couple of really nice reaches where he poked the puck away and stopped entry and gained possession.


Yeah but you're just fine with guys who look busier and leak a lot more goals .



As much as reasonable people could expect in statistically worst line in the league before Laine ever played in it. Nobody is successful in that line, they have tried many options and none work with that line. It has nothing to do with Laine. When he played with Evans and Armia in 3rd, the 2nd line was still leaking goals,



That's just how you feel. You can't actually quantify it in any substancial way. It's justabout how he looks to you and how you feel about it. Statistics do not support your nonsense at all.

Below AHL level skating.....Laine with a knee brace after major injury has had top speed of 21.79 mph and Cole Caufield, bonafide NHL first line skater, has a massive advantage with 22.08 mph. Slaf with 22.04 mph.

That's the difference between NHL first line and below AHL. 0.25 mph difference. Good analysis bro. You have a bright future.

This team wouldn't be sniffing the playoffs if he didn't decide to play through his injury and opted not to have surgery.

There would be no meaningful games this late. We'd be cursing wins, hoping for high draft position.

Some respect should be due. Like a modicum.

The delusion is strong in this one.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

The delusion is strong in this one.

Its unbelievable. At first i thought he was trying to be funny. But then i realized he really believes what he is saying! Its astounding.

I am a fan of Laine, but not this version of Laine. Whatever is ailing him, i would like to see him get it fixed. If that means surgery... I just don't see him helping the team as a PP specialist only. He can be so much more if he's 100% or close to it. Laine hurts whatever line he plays on. Put him on Suzuki's line, he will hurt that line.

 

[bud12]

MArioesque, you want to see Laine play with better player.The problem is those better players would get pissed off by playing with a guy who's skate like he have a piano on his back, can't make a simple pass to save his life and create a turnover each time the puck goes near his stick. Hope for you that he's way better next year because if not, it's arrivederci amigo!!!

 

[Andrei79]

Its unbelievable. At first i thought he was trying to be funny. But then i realized he really believes what he is saying! Its astounding.

I am a fan of Laine, but not this version of Laine. Whatever is ailing him, i would like to see him get it fixed. If that means surgery... I just don't see him helping the team as a PP specialist only. He can be so much more if he's 100% or close to it.

It's Dach fault he looks like utter shit 5 on 5.

Did you notice how awesome he was against Florida ? No? Well that's because you have functioning eyes and a functioning brain.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

I admit I'm wrong.

Fixed it!

 

[DemidovSZN]

Newhook has 20 EVP in 75 games, Dach had 15 in 57, and Laine with 13 in 45.

They are all around the same point percentage with Laine barely ahead. Difference is Laine has significantly more talent which helps him produce on the PP while the other two couldn't do shit on the PP or with Suzuki and Caufield.

If you want to say that Dach/Newhook are providing elite defensive play at 5v5 that Laine doesn't, I encourage you to look at their -1000 on the season so far.

I'm not arguing that Laine is better at even strength than those two. Newhook works way harder and Dach forechecked more, but at the end of the day, in terms of production which is what's most important for an offense first second line, Laine is beating them.

Laine is producing on the PP.

You can’t count that in his production on the 2nd line. He has 9 5vs5 points this season, 2 goals.

 

[CoopersFalls]

Overall a success with the production despite lack of 5on5 production. I'm optimistic he will be better next year with a clean bill of health and full summer of training.

 

[le_sean]

That's not how it would. His current salary has zero effect on his next contract.

If the Habs and Laine agree on contract, they will agree to their best estimate of market value.

lol that’s such BS and you know it. He’s a hyped 2nd overall pick and will be 27 years old. He’s definitely going to point to how much he’s currently making and that he’s worth it.