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Player Discussion Patrik Laine: Part 2 - Healthy Living Edition

le_sean said:
Compared to just saying we are wrong and not watching the games and posting one clip?

There are literal stats of how bad he is 5v5. But I guess that’s fake news
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I don't disagree that he's been bad 5v5, but I also don't see any of Dach/Newhook producing 5v5. "Almosts" don't really mean much.

I almost had a threesome with two supermodels, I just needed to find two supermodels who were willing.
 
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The Great Weal said:
I don't disagree that he's been bad 5v5, but I also don't see any of Dach/Newhook producing 5v5. "Almosts" don't really mean much.

I almost had a threesome with two supermodels, I just needed to find two supermodels who were willing.
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But they are paid like 3rd liners. Laine is paid like a top player. That’s the difference. Yet they still produce more than him 5v5
 
le_sean said:
But they are paid like 3rd liners. Laine is paid like a top player. That’s the difference. Yet they still produce more than him 5v5
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Laine's salary is why we got paid to take him on. We paid a good bit of assets to get Dach/Newhook in hopes that they would make an impact as top 6 players or really good 3rd liners. Laine may very well have more goals than either player has points while just staying stationary on the PP. It's a bad look for those two who also got to play with Suzuki and Caufield for good stretches this year. Newhook played 112 minutes with those two, Dach with 84 minutes, and Laine with 5 minutes.
 
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The Great Weal said:
Laine's salary is why we got paid to take him on. We paid a good bit of assets to get Dach/Newhook in hopes that they would make an impact as top 6 players or really good 3rd liners. Laine may very well have more goals than either player has points while just staying stationary on the PP. It's a bad look for those two who also got to play with Suzuki and Caufield for good stretches this year. Newhook played 112 minutes with those two, Dach with 84 minutes, and Laine with 5 minutes.
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I didn’t say Laine was completely useless. The issue is his ES play. And those two were shit yes, but still slightly better than Laine. I’d venture to say Laine isn’t tried with Suzuki because the coach knows it’ll just drag him down.

The point remains that he’s just not effective right now at even strength. There are people denying that which is outright lying.
 
le_sean said:
I didn’t say Laine was completely useless. The issue is his ES play. And those two were shit yes, but still slightly better than Laine. I’d venture to say Laine isn’t tried with Suzuki because the coach knows it’ll just bring him down.
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Newhook has 20 EVP in 75 games, Dach had 15 in 57, and Laine with 13 in 45.

They are all around the same point percentage with Laine barely ahead. Difference is Laine has significantly more talent which helps him produce on the PP while the other two couldn't do shit on the PP or with Suzuki and Caufield.

If you want to say that Dach/Newhook are providing elite defensive play at 5v5 that Laine doesn't, I encourage you to look at their -1000 on the season so far.

I'm not arguing that Laine is better at even strength than those two. Newhook works way harder and Dach forechecked more, but at the end of the day, in terms of production which is what's most important for an offense first second line, Laine is beating them.
 
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The Great Weal said:
Newhook has 20 EVP in 75 games, Dach had 15 in 57, and Laine with 13 in 45.

They are all around the same point percentage with Laine barely ahead. Difference is Laine has significantly more talent which helps him produce on the PP while the other two couldn't do shit on the PP or with Suzuki and Caufield.

If you want to say that Dach/Newhook are providing elite defensive play at 5v5 that Laine doesn't, I encourage you to look at their -1000 on the season so far.

I'm not arguing that Laine is better at even strength than those two. Newhook works way harder and Dach forechecked more, but at the end of the day, in terms of production which is what's most important for an offense first second line, Laine is beating them.
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Per 60 minutes at 5v5, Newhook is at 1.11 points, Dach and Laine tied at 1.08. So he’s not ahead.

We are paying for a PP specialist right now.

Would you be comfortable paying him the same number for the next 7-8 years?

I assume the answer is no, which means he’s just not living up to the contract, and that’s okay to admit.
 
le_sean said:
Per 60 minutes at 5v5, Newhook is at 1.11 points, Dach and Laine tied at 1.08. So he’s not ahead.
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Well I provided you EVP but if you want to pretend that EVP is a useless stat and P/60 5v5 (the famous Kotkaniemi stat) is incredibly telling, you're going to tell me that 0.03 difference is considerable enough to label one (not both) player as better? Really?
le_sean said:
We are paying for a PP specialist right now.

Would you be comfortable paying him the same number for the next 7-8 years?

I assume the answer is no, which means he’s just not living up to the contract, and that’s okay to admit.
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Would you be comfortable paying 13th OA for Dach and a late 1st+early 2nd for Newhook again?

I assume the answer is no, which means they are not living up to the assets spent on them, and that's okay to admit. I'd much rather get paid an asset for an overpaid player for 2 years than give up assets for a player that wasn't worth it.
 
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le_sean said:
Compared to just saying we are wrong and not watching the games and posting one clip?

There are literal stats of how bad he is 5v5. But I guess that’s fake news
Click to expand...

I asked for those stats and got offered "points and goals 5 on 5" that ignored the context of minutes played.

Why would someone consider that? There's a certain level of bs that a person just discards at the most outer filter, because the argument is so ridiculous that you can't entertain it a second longer. That's what that one is.

I've been acknowledging that Laine has been underwhelming 5 on 5, he has his strengths and weaknesses and in current usage his strengths only get used on PP. The line he is in doesn't fit with what you need to get the most out of Laine. There's a massive difference between the Laine with this line, and Laine with better players. This context is completely lost on you guys, you outright ignore it. Because you're not honest actors, you're just smearing.

There are many here who recognize his shortcomings but also manage to see beyond that, which some of you can never do.

You for some reason expect him to do something with a line where nobody has done anything. I don't, and don't care what he is paid, I'm not paying for it. If I was paying for it, , I'd play him in 1st line to get more out of my investment, because I understand how this asset works. At least to test how it would go in his current health. His movement has been better as of late so that's a really positive sign.
 
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le_sean said:
But they are paid like 3rd liners. Laine is paid like a top player. That’s the difference. Yet they still produce more than him 5v5
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in what sample size? What are these goal posts you're trying to offer as fair?

Because Laine has the highest 5 on 5 Points per game of the team, over career
 
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The Great Weal said:
Well I provided you EVP but if you want to pretend that EVP is a useless stat and P/60 5v5 (the famous Kotkaniemi stat) is incredibly telling, you're going to tell me that 0.03 difference is considerable enough to label one (not both) player as better? Really?

Would you be comfortable paying 13th OA for Dach and a late 1st+early 2nd for Newhook again?

I assume the answer is no, which means they are not living up to the assets spent on them, and that's okay to admit. I'd much rather get paid an asset for an overpaid player for 2 years than give up assets for a player that wasn't worth it.
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I’ve already admitted that those trades are bad. I don’t see what your point is.

He needs to be better. Full stop. There’s not much sense in discussing any further. He’s the highest paid player on the team. The onus is on him.
 
The Great Weal said:
I don't disagree that he's been bad 5v5, but I also don't see any of Dach/Newhook producing 5v5. "Almosts" don't really mean much.

I almost had a threesome with two supermodels, I just needed to find two supermodels who were willing.
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Both of those players have been better than him at 5v5. I guess you just don't follow reality that Laine is like the worst producer at even strength?
 
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Laine hasn't even been that bad defensively. He's never going to be amazing and there will always be some turnovers, but he's been disinctly average for a while now after what was without question a very rough start. Which frankly was to be expected.
 
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