Player Discussion Patrik Laine: Part 2 - Healthy Living Edition

[26Mats]

Couldn’t agree more. Laine is a perfect example. He’s a sniper, not a play driver. We all know that, but anyone who thinks Alex Newhook or Kirby Dach are adding more value are hard to take seriously.

Most of the stats ignore special teams too, like scoring on the PP doesn’t contribute to the outcome of the game.

He's a sniper. But I really don't want him to end up just being a player like Ryder and Hoffman - sniper's who were also defensive liabilities, offensive play killers when they weren't scoring, turnover machines, constatnly out of position in the d zone, and didn't dig deep with effort in the dzone. Especially at his cap hit.

Laine has far more offensive flair with the puck and is an even better sniper. I hope MSL and Adam Nicholas can work with him to round out his game. And that Laune is willing to listen and put in the effort. I also hope Laine becomes a fitness and strength and conditioning freak. But that's a lot to hope for. So we'll see...

The upside is huge. That's why I'm glass half full on Laine. We mayonly have about one calendar year and one off season to work with him. I hope MSL and Nicholas can work their magic...

 

[LaineBOOM]

Some might say that the people who actively help Laine with his mental health would already know the answer to this question (through doing an actual investigation of it with Laine), but:
- I think Laine might have an undiagnosed ADHD. Im not gonna go into details of why, but to me it would explain many things from his younger years, also his struggles with the earlier gaming addiction, his motivation being very vulnerable etc.

What I am saying is:
- If lets say Laine would get an ADHD diagnose, and with that central nervous system stimulating medicine.. his motivation would skyrocket as he would for the first time really start getting pleasure from the "boring" things like training, defending etc.

I have also been contemplating whether I should contact Laine and/or his crew somehow about this. The similarities of Patty and me in the mental health side of things (based on what we know and have read) are many. I got my ADHD diagnosis just last year at almost 40 years old. Had I been in such a public and pressure filled profession as Laine the real work and life related problems would have started earlier than at around age 32-33, like it was for me.

Those who know about the effects of ADHD medicine (in those who have ADHD) can most likely relate to this the most. I also understand totally if someone thinks this is just useless to even consider.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Some might say that the people who actively help Laine with his mental health would already know the answer to this question (through doing an actual investigation of it with Laine), but:
- I think Laine might have an undiagnosed ADHD. Im not gonna go into details of why, but to me it would explain many things from his younger years, also his struggles with the earlier gaming addiction, his motivation being very vulnerable etc.

What I am saying is:
- If lets say Laine would get an ADHD diagnose, and with that central nervous system stimulating medicine.. his motivation would skyrocket as he would for the first time really start getting pleasure from the "boring" things like training, defending etc.

I have also been contemplating whether I should contact Laine and/or his crew somehow about this. The similarities of Patty and me in the mental health side of things (based on what we know and have read) are many. I got my ADHD diagnosis just last year at almost 40 years old. Had I been in such a public and pressure filled profession as Laine the real work and life related problems would have started earlier than at around age 32-33, like it was for me.

Those who know about the effects of ADHD medicine (in those who have ADHD) can most likely relate to this the most. I also understand totally if someone thinks this is just useless to even consider.

Dude , stop.

He just needs to move his feet , its not rocket science.

If he can't because he's hurt that's cool , If he can't because he's lazy that's also fine and we will move on from Patrick.

Talking about mental health and ADHD , man ,he's paid to move his feet and shoot the puck , that is all.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Advanced stats gives you glimbs, how play should go in theory.

Hypothetic situation, Laine and Newhook take five shots exactly same spots. Stats say they both have same xGF, but in real life we all know that isn't the case, because Laine's shot is more better. So his xGF should be higher.

That's why I think GF/GA is better meter. If you are net positive, then you are winning games when player is on the ice.

No one number will tell you the story. Laine is a great example. His 5 on 5 play isn’t great but he’s the best PP goalscorer in the league. That has huge value. It’s not like he’s done nothing here.

He just needs some time. He will improve.

 

[LaineBOOM]

Dude , stop.

He just needs to move his feet , its not rocket science.

If he can't because he's hurt that's cool , If he can't because he's lazy that's also fine and we will move on from Patrick.

Talking about mental health and ADHD , man ,he's paid to move his feet and shoot the puck , that is all.

Fantastic! I wish someone told me that 7 years ago, I could have started lifting weights 8 hours per week (instead of 0), eating healthy (instead of total crap) and stopping all my addictions already then!

Nothing to see here Q!

 

[Goalfield13]

No one number will tell you the story. Laine is a great example. His 5 on 5 play isn’t great but he’s the best PP goalscorer in the league. That has huge value. It’s not like he’s done nothing here.

He just needs some time. He will improve.

I really think 5v5, Beck and Demidov are going to be great linemates for him. Both play a 200 foot game. Demidov is also obviously super talented.

 

[LaineBOOM]

Some might say that the people who actively help Laine with his mental health would already know the answer to this question (through doing an actual investigation of it with Laine), but:
- I think Laine might have an undiagnosed ADHD. Im not gonna go into details of why, but to me it would explain many things from his younger years, also his struggles with the earlier gaming addiction, his motivation being very vulnerable etc.

What I am saying is:
- If lets say Laine would get an ADHD diagnose, and with that central nervous system stimulating medicine.. his motivation would skyrocket as he would for the first time really start getting pleasure from the "boring" things like training, defending etc.

I have also been contemplating whether I should contact Laine and/or his crew somehow about this. The similarities of Patty and me in the mental health side of things (based on what we know and have read) are many. I got my ADHD diagnosis just last year at almost 40 years old. Had I been in such a public and pressure filled profession as Laine the real work and life related problems would have started earlier than at around age 32-33, like it was for me.

Those who know about the effects of ADHD medicine (in those who have ADHD) can most likely relate to this the most. I also understand totally if someone thinks this is just useless to even consider.

Just to make sure @The Gr8 Dane So I should not start a thread about that in the main boards? Im 50/50 on it at the moment.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I really think 5v5, Beck and Demidov are going to be great linemates for him. Both play a 200 foot game. Demidov is also obviously super talented.

I love Beck. But putting him in the top six next year is a huge mistake. He’s a raw rookie. It’ll be Dach (rightly so) unless he’s hurt.

I also think Montreal should look for other options in the offseason. I love Dach and his potential but his health is a big question mark and we need depth.

 

[Goalfield13]

I love Beck. But putting him in the top six next year is a huge mistake. He’s a raw rookie. It’ll be Dach (rightly so) unless he’s hurt.

I also think Montreal should look for other options in the offseason. I love Dach and his potential but his health is a big question mark and we need depth.

Dach stinks. Get over him. Peg him as the 2C next year is not a good idea. Beck is the better player. I want us to get another option for 2C, but if we can't get that, Beck is next man up over Dach.

 

[Pat Riot]

Dach stinks. Get over him. Peg him as the 2C next year is not a good idea. Beck is the better player. I want us to get another option for 2C, but if we can't get that, Beck is next man up over Dach.

I cant see the Habs starting next season with Dach or Beck for 2nd line center. Hughes will make a move

 

[Goalfield13]

I cant see the Habs starting next season with Dach or Beck for 2nd line center. Hughes will make a move

He will try, like he did with Carrier before the season. He was forced to have Guhle at 1RD because he couldn't get something done. You have to have other options available. Legit 2Cs don't grow on trees.

 

[HHel]

I love Beck. But putting him in the top six next year is a huge mistake. He’s a raw rookie. It’ll be Dach (rightly so) unless he’s hurt.

I also think Montreal should look for other options in the offseason. I love Dach and his potential but his health is a big question mark and we need depth.

I want to see more Beck in that 2nd line, but he isn't solution yet in 2C position. I hope they get agressive in offseason to aquire C.

Fo's has been hurting 2nd line. In Ottawa game Dach was 25% and Newhook was 38,5%. That is one reason why they are chasing puck a lot. Carolina game Newhook was 37,5% but Beck was 100%.

 

[LaineBOOM]

Ok so if my idea of "make Laine a super saian using ADHD-meds" is not viable, then how about this:
- Acquire a center for Laine and Demidov who can kill four birds with one stone. I.e.:
1. Be a mentor for Demidov
2. Be a 2-way wizzard
3. Motivate Laine to train and defend (carrot or stick or both)
4. Physically (with his fists) defend Demi on the ice if opponents get the idea to try to kill the man for embarrassing them with his shifty skating.

I give you an IRL (sort of) example:
JACK REACHER

Ye? Who would be this Center who would check all those 4 boxes?

 

[LaineBOOM]

Ok so if my idea of "make Laine a super saian using ADHD-meds" is not viable, then how about this:
- Acquire a center for Laine and Demidov who can kill four birds with one stone. I.e.:
1. Be a mentor for Demidov
2. Be a 2-way wizzard
3. Motivate Laine to train and defend (carrot or stick or both)
4. Physically (with his fists) defend Demi on the ice if opponents get the idea to try to kill the man for embarrassing them with his shifty skating.

I give you an IRL (sort of) example:
JACK REACHER

Ye? Who would be this Center who would check all those 4 boxes?

Im imagining something like this:

And yes, before you ask, that is indeed Jack Reacher's face in Guillaume Latendresse's body.

 

[Marioesque]

That's why I think GF/GA is better meter. If you are net positive, then you are winning games when player is on the ice.

This right here.

It doesn't really matter HOW you got there, if you got there.

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

Dach stinks. Get over him. Peg him as the 2C next year is not a good idea. Beck is the better player. I want us to get another option for 2C, but if we can't get that, Beck is next man up over Dach.

Beck, who has 8 nhl games played and 0 pts, is better than Dach, ok...

 

[Calendal]

Some might say that the people who actively help Laine with his mental health would already know the answer to this question (through doing an actual investigation of it with Laine), but:
- I think Laine might have an undiagnosed ADHD. Im not gonna go into details of why, but to me it would explain many things from his younger years, also his struggles with the earlier gaming addiction, his motivation being very vulnerable etc.

What I am saying is:
- If lets say Laine would get an ADHD diagnose, and with that central nervous system stimulating medicine.. his motivation would skyrocket as he would for the first time really start getting pleasure from the "boring" things like training, defending etc.

I have also been contemplating whether I should contact Laine and/or his crew somehow about this. The similarities of Patty and me in the mental health side of things (based on what we know and have read) are many. I got my ADHD diagnosis just last year at almost 40 years old. Had I been in such a public and pressure filled profession as Laine the real work and life related problems would have started earlier than at around age 32-33, like it was for me.

Those who know about the effects of ADHD medicine (in those who have ADHD) can most likely relate to this the most. I also understand totally if someone thinks this is just useless to even consider.

Dude, stop.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Goals are a rare event. Shot attempts are not. Because shots for and against happen in greater numbers you can get a much better picture of where the puck is while a player is in the ice. Will there be weird situations (a player losing his stick for example) that dictate that a play winds up in your zone? Yes. But because there’s such volume it drowns out the noise for exceptions like that.

Goals on the other hand don’t happen frequently. And things like goaltending and other variables play a huge role. That’s why plus minus sucks.

I’ve never liked the term ‘possession’ either but that’s the term that’s used. I’m not going to fight city hall.

The usefulness of Corsi stats is that it’s not just capturing the outcome of a goal for or against. It’s capturing where the bulk of the play is taking place when a player is in the ice. That’s why the term ‘possession’ is used. You can’t have shots for attempts if you’re spending the night in your own zone.

Again though, we don’t need stats to see that he’s been really bad at five on five anymore than we needed it for Dach in November. The numbers only confirm it.

The big difference between Laine and Dach’s slumps though is that Laine is contributing huge numbers on the PP. He’s best in the league in goals with the man advantage and top 20 in points. Dach was terrible on the PP. From a points perspective I wouldn’t even call it a slump at all.

Anyways as I said, I expect Laine to improve as the season progresses. He needs his timing back and he looked good in his last game.

Goal differential has better predictive value. Doesn’t matter if they come at 5vs5 or on the PP. The goal of the game is to outscore your opponent, not throw as many useless attempts as possible on goal. Corsi is not an advanced stat. It is an elementary stat.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

He's a sniper. But I really don't want him to end up just being a player like Ryder and Hoffman - sniper's who were also defensive liabilities, offensive play killers when they weren't scoring, turnover machines, constatnly out of position in the d zone, and didn't dig deep with effort in the dzone. Especially at his cap hit.

Laine has far more offensive flair with the puck and is an even better sniper. I hope MSL and Adam Nicholas can work with him to round out his game. And that Laune is willing to listen and put in the effort. I also hope Laine becomes a fitness and strength and conditioning freak. But that's a lot to hope for. So we'll see...

The upside is huge. That's why I'm glass half full on Laine. We mayonly have about one calendar year and one off season to work with him. I hope MSL and Nicholas can work their magic...

Laine is in roughly the same situation as Dach was as far as recovering from injury and man games missed. Except Laine has elite qualities that Dach doesn’t and even being out of shape, rusty and battered Laine can still score. Dach on the other hand, couldn’t do anything and even when he’s playing better can’t really produce.

 

[DAChampion]

Some might say that the people who actively help Laine with his mental health would already know the answer to this question (through doing an actual investigation of it with Laine), but:
- I think Laine might have an undiagnosed ADHD. Im not gonna go into details of why, but to me it would explain many things from his younger years, also his struggles with the earlier gaming addiction, his motivation being very vulnerable etc.

What I am saying is:
- If lets say Laine would get an ADHD diagnose, and with that central nervous system stimulating medicine.. his motivation would skyrocket as he would for the first time really start getting pleasure from the "boring" things like training, defending etc.

I have also been contemplating whether I should contact Laine and/or his crew somehow about this. The similarities of Patty and me in the mental health side of things (based on what we know and have read) are many. I got my ADHD diagnosis just last year at almost 40 years old. Had I been in such a public and pressure filled profession as Laine the real work and life related problems would have started earlier than at around age 32-33, like it was for me.

Those who know about the effects of ADHD medicine (in those who have ADHD) can most likely relate to this the most. I also understand totally if someone thinks this is just useless to even consider.

Wouldn't the NHL consider Ritalin and Adderall to be performance enhancing drugs?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Goal differential has better predictive value.

That depends on what you're trying to predict.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Laine is in roughly the same situation as Dach was as far as recovering from injury and man games missed. Except Laine has elite qualities that Dach doesn’t and even being out of shape, rusty and battered Laine can still score. Dach on the other hand, couldn’t do anything and even when he’s playing better can’t really produce.

They are completely diffent players. Laine has an all-world shot (seriously it might be the best in the league) and his value on the PP can't be underestimated. He might be the best PP guy in the league.

That doesn't mean he's been playing well at 5 on 5 though.

And I don't see that has anything to do with Dach other than that they are in similar situations and have played badly at even strength coming back from injury.

 

[DAChampion]

Laine is in roughly the same situation as Dach was as far as recovering from injury and man games missed. Except Laine has elite qualities that Dach doesn’t and even being out of shape, rusty and battered Laine can still score. Dach on the other hand, couldn’t do anything and even when he’s playing better can’t really produce.

That's a very good point.

Dach needs to give 100%+ over an extended period in order to be effective at the NHL. Though he's not a grinder, he can't grind, and there's a lot of competition out there for second line players that can't play on the third line. I remember watching videos of Pacioretty training in his summers. That's what Dach needs to do. Get the best body he can.

Laine should also if we're honest, but due to his superior talent he can be at 80% and still be effective.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

That's a very good point.

Dach needs to give 100%+ over an extended period in order to be effective at the NHL. Though he's not a grinder, he can't grind, and there's a lot of competition out there for second line players that can't play on the third line. I remember watching videos of Pacioretty training in his summers. That's what Dach needs to do. Get the best body he can.

Laine should also if we're honest, but due to his superior talent he can be at 80% and still be effective.

But that hasn't happened. He hasn't been good at 5 on 5.

On the PP, he's been amazing.

So yeah, he's brought tons of value just not at 5 on 5.