Patrick Roy?

[Lazarrr]

I'm curious as to why Patrick Roy dropped out of the 2002 Winter Olympics when he was pretty much guaranteed a spot. Anyone have any ideas?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

They wouldn't guarantee him the starter's job, so he declined to participate.

Kiprusoff asked for the same from Finland last Olympics I think (though I think they ended up guaranteeing him the spot so he stayed).

 

[SidGenoMario]

Wasn't he in trouble with the law for beating his wife around that time? I was 12, my memory might be failing me.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Wasn't he in trouble with the law for beating his wife around that time? I was 12, my memory might be failing me.

That incident was in October of 2000 (and moreover, he didn't beat his wife), so it was unlikely that that was an influence.

According to both Roy and Brodeur's autobiographies, it was that he wanted to be guaranteed the starter's role, so it's safe to assume that.

 

[quoipourquoi]

According to both Roy and Brodeur's autobiographies, it was that he wanted to be guaranteed the starter's role, so it's safe to assume that.

Just for clarification, Roy's father wrote the Roy biography.


Patrick Roy, in addition to having previously attributed the 1998 Colorado Avalanche's loss of focus on the Nagano Olympics, was considering retirement at the conclusion of the 2001-02 season as early as November 2001, and he prioritized the chance to defend the Stanley Cup over the Salt Lake City Olympics. With that in mind, he called Wayne Gretzky and spent time at his son's tournament (much less stressful on the knees!).


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1025471/index.htm


He would've been the starter, whether he was named in the initial group or the second group, so I don't think that had much to do with his choice. He has a lot of pride, yes, but he had been speaking out against the Olympics' effects in interviews since the Edmonton series in 1998 (that much I read in Hockey Illustrated), and despite the novelty of the first NHL Olympics, he wasn't all that loyal to Hockey Canada (from the biography).

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Just for clarification, Roy's father wrote the Roy biography.

Right you are - it's been awhile.

 

[Big Phil]

When the announcement came out, he said he wanted to prepare for a run in the postseason again. At the time, even the analysts knew that it was a lie.

This is what should have happened. They should have sat down with him and said, "Patrick, relax, you ARE the starter, don't worry about it."

Take yourself back to that time, he had a wonderful season in 2000-'01, won the Cup, won the Conn Smythe and was in the midst of a Hart caliber season in 2001-'02. I know that Gretzky didn't want to commit to anything, but as good as Belfour, Joseph and Brodeur were at the time you would still have to go with your gut and pick Roy. However, we did fine without him. Maybe it was far better to have a more team-orientated guy like Brodeur. It's funny because despite a couple Cups under his belt, there were reservations about Brodeur until he won Gold. Weird huh?

 

[quoipourquoi]

When the announcement came out, he said he wanted to prepare for a run in the postseason again. At the time, even the analysts knew that it was a lie.

I don't see why it is a lie when he would've undoubtedly been the starting goaltender (he was playing better hockey than anyone in the mid-season of 2001-02; THN's 1st Half MVP). The Colorado Avalanche were playing sub-.500 hockey when he told Wayne Gretzky that he'd rather take a chance at defending his Stanley Cup in possibly his last season than play for Canada.

According to his father, he didn't really give Hockey Canada too much thought after never making World Juniors or the 1987 Canada Cup. He went to Nagano for the novelty, and the Avalanche finished the season 10-13-1 after starting 29-13-16.

Can anyone really say that Patrick Roy's singular focus throughout his career was not winning the Stanley Cup specifically?

 

[Hasbro]

That incident was in October of 2000 (and moreover, he didn't beat his wife), so it was unlikely that that was an influence.

According to both Roy and Brodeur's autobiographies, it was that he wanted to be guaranteed the starter's role, so it's safe to assume that.

In addition to the fact Gretzky and Quinn were giving the starting job to CuJo. If the Great One has a weakness it's cronyism.

 

[Big Phil]

I don't see why it is a lie when he would've undoubtedly been the starting goaltender (he was playing better hockey than anyone in the mid-season of 2001-02; THN's 1st Half MVP). The Colorado Avalanche were playing sub-.500 hockey when he told Wayne Gretzky that he'd rather take a chance at defending his Stanley Cup in possibly his last season than play for Canada.

According to his father, he didn't really give Hockey Canada too much thought after never making World Juniors or the 1987 Canada Cup. He went to Nagano for the novelty, and the Avalanche finished the season 10-13-1 after starting 29-13-16.

Can anyone really say that Patrick Roy's singular focus throughout his career was not winning the Stanley Cup specifically?

I guess love him or hate him (and there's plenty on either side) you can't argue with his passion for winning the Cup. He did it 4 times, he won 3 Conn Smythe trophies and in the other year was only bettered by Sakic. You can't fault him for that, but that is one part of his career that he fails at and its internationally. This is where Brodeur lays a licking on him in every regard. Broudeur himself won three Cups and then was central to Canada winning in 2002 and 2004. Even in 2010 when he was replaced by Luongo you didn't hear him sulking about it at all. Not like Joseph did. Not like Roy almost certainly would have.

There were 6 times for major tournaments that Brodeur was picked. Only once for Roy. Granted he deserved a spot on the 1991 and 1996 World Cups and would have been on the 2002 team but he wasn't. Could it be because Brodeur - back up or starter - was a better team player? I think it was and that's a knock you have to place against Patrick. After all, Brodeur proved you could be a Gold Medal winner and a Stanley Cup winner. Why couldn't Patrick do that?

 

[GuineaPig]

To be fair, Roy's performance in the 1998 Olympics was probably the best of any Canadian goaltender since NHLers have been participating.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I guess love him or hate him (and there's plenty on either side) you can't argue with his passion for winning the Cup. He did it 4 times, he won 3 Conn Smythe trophies and in the other year was only bettered by Sakic. You can't fault him for that, but that is one part of his career that he fails at and its internationally. This is where Brodeur lays a licking on him in every regard. Broudeur himself won three Cups and then was central to Canada winning in 2002 and 2004. Even in 2010 when he was replaced by Luongo you didn't hear him sulking about it at all. Not like Joseph did. Not like Roy almost certainly would have.

There were 6 times for major tournaments that Brodeur was picked. Only once for Roy. Granted he deserved a spot on the 1991 and 1996 World Cups and would have been on the 2002 team but he wasn't. Could it be because Brodeur - back up or starter - was a better team player? I think it was and that's a knock you have to place against Patrick. After all, Brodeur proved you could be a Gold Medal winner and a Stanley Cup winner. Why couldn't Patrick do that?

There's a difference between failing at international hockey and being indifferent to it almost entirely (on a Bourque-level, so to speak). After not making the 1987 Canada Cup squad, it's generally not a case of Patrick Roy not being picked to be Canada's goaltender; he pretty much turned Hockey Canada down for a multitude of reasons every time he was offered the job. Brodeur and Joseph were picked multiple times because Roy wouldn't go.

Think back to the 1987 Canada Cup tryouts: Roy is given one start in the pre-tournament games and stops 38 of 40 shots to beat Team USA 3-2. Fuhr lets in 6 goals to Team USA. Hextall loses 9-4 to the Soviets and breaks Sylvain Turgeon's forearm. Which of those three goalies deserved to be cut?

Patrick Roy had very little motivation to play for Hockey Canada after that. Brodeur and Joseph weren't nearly as jaded about international hockey, and more than that, they were able to cut their teeth internationally in the World Championships in 1996 while Roy, the best Canadian goalie, was in the playoffs winning his third Stanley Cup.

Then comes the 1996 World Cup just a few months later, when Patrick Roy's invitation from Glen Sather must have been lost in the mail. Sather blamed Bowman, but for all we know, there might have been hurt feelings from when Roy turned Canada down in 1991 because of his sinuses. After that, there wasn't another Canada Cup until Roy had retired.

And let's not pretend that he wasn't the best player when he finally put on the red and white jersey. Their leading scorers in 1998 had half the points of the Selannes, Koivus, and Bures. Was Brodeur being a "better team player" really the difference in 2002? Was he such a nice guy that Canada literally doubled its goal output in the elimination round (1998: 7 goals in 3 games; 2002: 14 goals in 3 games; 2010: 21 goals in 4 games)?

Because in reality (and to follow up on what GuineaPig said), Roy still has the best Canadian Olympic goaltending performance since the NHL era - and prior to Finland game and all of its powerplay goals, it was a performance on par with Hasek's:

Roy: 4-1, 0.97 GAA, .959 SPCT
Hasek: 4-1, 1.17 GAA, .957 SPCT

But that statline wasn't good enough for a Gold Medal game, and that's a knock against Roy? That's proof that Brodeur is a better team player?



Vincent Damphousse: "Patrick was the first to go to war for his teammates. There is no doubt, and I mean no doubt, that Patrick Roy is a great team player."

Pierre Turgeon: "I don't agree with that [that Patrick was too individualistic]. Patrick is a winner; he simply didn't like to lose. In the dressing room, he's an incredible leader."

Brian Savage: "To me, Patrick is the greatest team player I've ever encountered. He had only one thing in mind: Winning. When he won, he was happy for himself and for the team. He never gave the impression that he thought he was more important than the team."

And they all said that immediately after he was traded.

 

[Big Phil]

There's a difference between failing at international hockey and being indifferent to it almost entirely (on a Bourque-level, so to speak). After not making the 1987 Canada Cup squad, it's generally not a case of Patrick Roy not being picked to be Canada's goaltender; he pretty much turned Hockey Canada down for a multitude of reasons every time he was offered the job. Brodeur and Joseph were picked multiple times because Roy wouldn't go.

Think back to the 1987 Canada Cup tryouts: Roy is given one start in the pre-tournament games and stops 38 of 40 shots to beat Team USA 3-2. Fuhr lets in 6 goals to Team USA. Hextall loses 9-4 to the Soviets and breaks Sylvain Turgeon's forearm. Which of those three goalies deserved to be cut?

Patrick Roy had very little motivation to play for Hockey Canada after that. Brodeur and Joseph weren't nearly as jaded about international hockey, and more than that, they were able to cut their teeth internationally in the World Championships in 1996 while Roy, the best Canadian goalie, was in the playoffs winning his third Stanley Cup.

Then comes the 1996 World Cup just a few months later, when Patrick Roy's invitation from Glen Sather must have been lost in the mail. Sather blamed Bowman, but for all we know, there might have been hurt feelings from when Roy turned Canada down in 1991 because of his sinuses. After that, there wasn't another Canada Cup until Roy had retired.

And let's not pretend that he wasn't the best player when he finally put on the red and white jersey. Their leading scorers in 1998 had half the points of the Selannes, Koivus, and Bures. Was Brodeur being a "better team player" really the difference in 2002? Was he such a nice guy that Canada literally doubled its goal output in the elimination round (1998: 7 goals in 3 games; 2002: 14 goals in 3 games; 2010: 21 goals in 4 games)?

Because in reality (and to follow up on what GuineaPig said), Roy still has the best Canadian Olympic goaltending performance since the NHL era - and prior to Finland game and all of its powerplay goals, it was a performance on par with Hasek's:

Roy: 4-1, 0.97 GAA, .959 SPCT
Hasek: 4-1, 1.17 GAA, .957 SPCT

But that statline wasn't good enough for a Gold Medal game, and that's a knock against Roy? That's proof that Brodeur is a better team player?



Vincent Damphousse: "Patrick was the first to go to war for his teammates. There is no doubt, and I mean no doubt, that Patrick Roy is a great team player."

Pierre Turgeon: "I don't agree with that [that Patrick was too individualistic]. Patrick is a winner; he simply didn't like to lose. In the dressing room, he's an incredible leader."

Brian Savage: "To me, Patrick is the greatest team player I've ever encountered. He had only one thing in mind: Winning. When he won, he was happy for himself and for the team. He never gave the impression that he thought he was more important than the team."

And they all said that immediately after he was traded.

Just out of curiousity, didn't Turgeon get his arm broken by Hextall in 1989? It wasn't during the Canada Cup that I remember. I don't even remember Turgeon invited to that.

But I read an article about how Keenan explained the goalie cuts in 1987. He said Hextall and Fuhr were both in the finals and he felt they deserved to make the team. Kelly Hrudey he says just made the team out of training camp. There could be more to it. Would Roy have accepted Hrudey's position? Hrudey never played. Heck, Hextall didn't see ice time either. Fuhr played every minute. I can't imagine anyone making a case that a 1987 Roy was better and more beneficial to this tournament than Fuhr.

Maybe Roy only wanted to be #1. He felt that way 15 years later. So who knows? Plus, this is 1987. Yes he won the Cup and the Smythe in 1986. But he was pulled in favour of Brian Hayward in the '87 playoffs. If you ask me, Mike Liut would have made more sense on that team. Roy wasn't, shall we say, Patrick Roy at that time. Not in 1987.

I agree that 1996 was a poor choice. There was a rumour that Bowman didn't want Roy there because of the rivalry which is why he wasn't picked. If I were Sather, I'd have rectified that immediately with an invite to Roy. He was the best goalie for Canada at the time. It didn't make sense. I wish we could get to the root of that issue as to why that happened.

I don't know if things go deep with Bowman and Roy but I do remember after the 1998 Olympics Bowman stated he was glad Canada didn't win just so Roy wouldn't rub it in everyone's face. This is a guy who had Yzerman and Shanahan go to the Olympics as well. Roy said he was hurt that a Canadian would say that.

But either way, it's something you can't give Roy extra points for. He never won Olympic gold. It isn't a major thing, but you can't give him "what if" points for it. You CAN give Brodeur those points because he did do it.

No, this doesn't put Brodeur ahead of Roy all-time, but it is an area where he mops the floor with Patrick

 

[GuineaPig]

I don't see why anyone should give Brodeur "points" because his team played better than Roy's, especially when Roy's performance was better.

 

[Theokritos]

After not making the 1987 Canada Cup squad, it's generally not a case of Patrick Roy not being picked to be Canada's goaltender; he pretty much turned Hockey Canada down for a multitude of reasons every time he was offered the job.

Like when?
In 1991, he had a sinus operation just before the the tournament started (I think 2 weeks?), you're aware of that. In 1987 and 1996, he wasn't picked. So when did he turn Hockey Canada down except 2002?

 

[Rhiessan71]

I don't see why anyone should give Brodeur "points" because his team played better than Roy's, especially when Roy's performance was better.

Exactly this.

Nothing against Marty, he is (Too early to say was yet?) a great goalie but he is no Roy or Hasek for that matter.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Just out of curiousity, didn't Turgeon get his arm broken by Hextall in 1989? It wasn't during the Canada Cup that I remember. I don't even remember Turgeon invited to that.

No, it was the Canada Cup camp.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=18289

But I read an article about how Keenan explained the goalie cuts in 1987. He said Hextall and Fuhr were both in the finals and he felt they deserved to make the team. Kelly Hrudey he says just made the team out of training camp. There could be more to it. Would Roy have accepted Hrudey's position? Hrudey never played. Heck, Hextall didn't see ice time either. Fuhr played every minute. I can't imagine anyone making a case that a 1987 Roy was better and more beneficial to this tournament than Fuhr.

Patrick Roy was a better goalie at camp than Fuhr or Hextall period. If only Stanley Cup Finalists could represent Canada, the Nagano team would have been Mike Vernon and Ron Hextall.

And for the record, Patrick Roy was fifth in league save percentage and second in GAA in 1987. Grant Fuhr was sitting outside the top twenty in each with stats mirroring teammate Andy Moog. He had a good playoff, but let's not pretend that he was the world's best goaltender - or even Canada's best.

Maybe Roy only wanted to be #1. He felt that way 15 years later. So who knows?

Is there anything that actually backs up your speculation in 1987 or 2002? Roy was content to be the 1A in Montreal; why wouldn't he be okay with riding the pine at a Canada Cup? He was cut when he was playing for a spot; he didn't bow out.

Plus, this is 1987. Yes he won the Cup and the Smythe in 1986. But he was pulled in favour of Brian Hayward in the '87 playoffs.

He was pulled after losing one game. Prior to that, he swept Boston by winning four games in five days. Are you really judging his playoffs on a single game when he had to wait over a week to play that game because he was so good in round one?

If you ask me, Mike Liut would have made more sense on that team. Roy wasn't, shall we say, Patrick Roy at that time. Not in 1987.

I'm pretty high on Mike Liut (Bowling Green), but he had a fairly underwhelming playoff himself, and he actually got to play his round out to a total of 25 GA in 6 games. More than that, he wasn't invited to camp; Roy was, and neither he nor Hrudey should have been playing for the third spot when they were better than Fuhr and Hextall. That's my point; it's enough to make any goalie uninspired.

I agree that 1996 was a poor choice. There was a rumour that Bowman didn't want Roy there because of the rivalry which is why he wasn't picked. If I were Sather, I'd have rectified that immediately with an invite to Roy. He was the best goalie for Canada at the time. It didn't make sense. I wish we could get to the root of that issue as to why that happened.

I don't know if things go deep with Bowman and Roy but I do remember after the 1998 Olympics Bowman stated he was glad Canada didn't win just so Roy wouldn't rub it in everyone's face. This is a guy who had Yzerman and Shanahan go to the Olympics as well. Roy said he was hurt that a Canadian would say that.

I hope this is establishing a pattern for everyone as to why Patrick Roy doesn't have an international resume. Saying that this affects his credibility as a goaltender is akin to being upset with Hasek for not playing in the NHL in the 1980s.

But either way, it's something you can't give Roy extra points for. He never won Olympic gold. It isn't a major thing, but you can't give him "what if" points for it. You CAN give Brodeur those points because he did do it.

We're approaching Kirk Maltby has a Stanley Cup and Pat Lafontaine doesn't territory.

Players don't exactly get a plethora of opportunities to win a Gold medal. This is a non-issue, because he played better than Brodeur did in 2002 or Luongo did in 2010.

Wayne Gretzky doesn't have a Gold medal, and he didn't score a goal in the tournament. But Eric Brewer does have a Gold medal, and he scored two goals in 2002. And this should honestly matter to no one but Eric Brewer, if you catch my drift.

No, this doesn't put Brodeur ahead of Roy all-time, but it is an area where he mops the floor with Patrick

And I think it's honestly as relevant as their respective career win/loss records on Tuesdays, because Patrick Roy was six years past his prime when the NHL started sending players to Nagano, whereas Brodeur was so young when they added another best-on-best tournament that he just completed his third Olympic tour last year.

Brodeur had opportunities, whereas Patrick Roy would have literally required a .969 SPCT over 5 games to drag Canada into the Gold Medal game in 1998 - or he would have had to convince Scotty Bowman and Glen Sather that he's a nice guy... or Keenan that his 1986 Playoff wasn't a fluke and really was how he would play over the next five seasons, nor would he break a teammate's arm in proving it... or his sinuses that he didn't need an operation... or his teammates that one last stab at a Gold Medal was more important than resting his 36-year-old inflammed Hart Trophy caliber knees.

Like when?
In 1991, he had a sinus operation just before the the tournament started (I think 2 weeks?), you're aware of that. In 1987 and 1996, he wasn't picked. So when did he turn Hockey Canada down except 2002?

World Championships. In 1998 and 2003, players from Colorado were eligible to make the jump after getting eliminated. And I was counting 1991 as him turning them down. I'm kinda writing essays here, so I'm bound to misspeak somewhere!

 

[Big Phil]

Patrick Roy was a better goalie at camp than Fuhr or Hextall period. If only Stanley Cup Finalists could represent Canada, the Nagano team would have been Mike Vernon and Ron Hextall.

And for the record, Patrick Roy was fifth in league save percentage and second in GAA in 1987. Grant Fuhr was sitting outside the top twenty in each with stats mirroring teammate Andy Moog. He had a good playoff, but let's not pretend that he was the world's best goaltender - or even Canada's best.

How exactly was Fuhr not Canada's best goalie in 1987? Who was better? For starters, he won the Vezina and almost the Hart in 1988. No doubt, Fuhr was the best goalie in the world for a short time. I sure wouldn't have cut him. Hextall was coming off a Conn Smythe performance on top of a Vezina win. Good luck cutting him too.

This goes beyond the Stanley Cup finalists just representing Canada. I just said that Keenan mentioned in an interview that he wasn't going to cut either one of those guys based on their performance in the playoffs the previous spring. Not that there can't be better goalies picked ahead of them, but I think this is a case where the best goalies were selected for Canada either way.

Is there anything that actually backs up your speculation in 1987 or 2002? Roy was content to be the 1A in Montreal; why wouldn't he be okay with riding the pine at a Canada Cup? He was cut when he was playing for a spot; he didn't bow out.

Do we know he was happy being "1a" with Hayward? I doubt that when crunch time came he was happy to share the net. We know Roy by now.

I'm pretty high on Mike Liut (Bowling Green), but he had a fairly underwhelming playoff himself, and he actually got to play his round out to a total of 25 GA in 6 games. More than that, he wasn't invited to camp; Roy was, and neither he nor Hrudey should have been playing for the third spot when they were better than Fuhr and Hextall. That's my point; it's enough to make any goalie uninspired.

Liut was never forgiven after 1981. The guy was 5th in Hart voting in 1987 and still shunned by Canada. It just goes to show you that there were a lot of snubs at that time. Roy was a baby at that time, hardly a goalie who had been through the ringers.

We're approaching Kirk Maltby has a Stanley Cup and Pat Lafontaine doesn't territory.

Players don't exactly get a plethora of opportunities to win a Gold medal. This is a non-issue, because he played better than Brodeur did in 2002 or Luongo did in 2010.

Wayne Gretzky doesn't have a Gold medal, and he didn't score a goal in the tournament. But Eric Brewer does have a Gold medal, and he scored two goals in 2002. And this should honestly matter to no one but Eric Brewer, if you catch my drift.

This isn't the territory I am personally approaching. Not sure why you see it that way. All I am saying is that in this one certain area Brodeur mops the floor with Patrick internationally. You can "what if" me to death if you want, but I judge by what I saw on the ice. Brodeur played, Roy did not. Perhaps there was politics behind it, but Roy's 4th place performance doesn't make up for Brodeur's two championship winning tournaments. Plus three others he played in.

This doesn't put Brodeur ahead of Roy on the all-time list, but it is something he proved to be better. Think of it as a comparison between their puckhandling skills. Brodeur wins that one too. You can't reward a player for something he didn't do and Roy barely participated.

 

[HF007]

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2001/11/21/roy011121.html
good article

 

[quoipourquoi]

How exactly was Fuhr not Canada's best goalie in 1987? Who was better? For starters, he won the Vezina and almost the Hart in 1988. No doubt, Fuhr was the best goalie in the world for a short time.

A title bestowed upon him for playing 75 games in 1987-88 - not because his sparkling .881 save percentage trailed the league leader by .019 points. The league leader? Patrick Roy.

Do we know he was happy being "1a" with Hayward? I doubt that when crunch time came he was happy to share the net. We know Roy by now.

We don't know anything of the sort except that Roy in 1998 said that he wouldn't mind whichever role he was given in Nagano and that over two months had passed since Salt Lake City orientation camp before Roy dropped out when he was clearly the leading candidate. Roy isn't exactly the most subtle athlete; if he demanded the top spot, isn't it more likely that he would've came out and said as much? Doing THAT would fit more in-line with his personality than clandestinely backing out of a job in 2002 that he was going to be handed.

This isn't the territory I am personally approaching. Not sure why you see it that way. All I am saying is that in this one certain area Brodeur mops the floor with Patrick internationally. You can "what if" me to death if you want, but I judge by what I saw on the ice. Brodeur played, Roy did not. Perhaps there was politics behind it, but Roy's 4th place performance doesn't make up for Brodeur's two championship winning tournaments. Plus three others he played in.

We've seen 6 games from Roy out of his prime and 17 games from Brodeur throughout his career where they happened to be playing best-on-best hockey without a Devils, Canadiens, or Avalanche jersey. Now, between the 1,276 games from Roy and the 1,313 games from Brodeur at the NHL level, I think we should have an even better idea as to what they were capable of as goaltenders, and until a goalie gets knocked out of the Stanley Cup Semifinals because he let in a shootout goal in Game One, my opinion of international tournaments is that they're a two-week long All-Star game where even Antero Niittymaki can be a star.

Look at how they played - not with which medal they came home. That's how we evaluate individual performance all of the time here. Why would this be any different?

 

[GuineaPig]

I don't even think performance on such a small scale should be the be all and end all. Even if Roy had finished with a 0.850 save percentage at Nagano, it wouldn't significantly affect my opinion of him. There's enough of a sample of him playing in high pressure situations to realize that he's a great goalie, and a better one than Brodeur.

It's interesting to see some of the revisionism, though. I mean, compare the way Luongo's performance in 2010 (the most recent, and therefore supposedly the least susceptible to revisionism) is portrayed versus Brodeur in 2002.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It's interesting to see some of the revisionism, though. I mean, compare the way Luongo's performance in 2010 (the most recent, and therefore supposedly the least susceptible to revisionism) is portrayed versus Brodeur in 2002.

What's revisionist about it?

 

[GuineaPig]

What's revisionist about it?

A lot of people say that Canada won "in spite of Luongo," and that he contributed nothing to the gold medal. His performance was roughly similar to that of Brodeur's in 2002 (0.924 for Luongo vs. 0.917), and no one would say that Brodeur was holding Canada back in 2002.

I guess what I'm getting at is that there's this pervasive opinion that Luongo is a terrible "clutch" goalie, and therefore he could not have played well at the Olympics. A lot of people consider Brodeur's gold medal a big accomplishment for him, and a testament to some unique quality (be it "ability to win," or in this thread, for example, "being a better teammate" was invoked), and yet are unwilling to lend any of the same considerations towards Luongo.

No one blames Brodeur for 2006 (and rightfully so), but if Team Canada had put forward that same performance in 2010 people would be all over Luongo for it. Just a pet peeve of mine.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

A lot of people say that Canada won "in spite of Luongo," and that he contributed nothing to the gold medal. His performance was roughly similar to that of Brodeur's in 2002 (0.924 for Luongo vs. 0.917), and no one would say that Brodeur was holding Canada back in 2002.

It might look similar on a numbers standpoint, but I thought that Brodeur projected confidence and stability to a jittery Canadian team in 2002. In 2010, there were times when Luongo was obviously fighting the puck.

 

[Big Phil]

A title bestowed upon him for playing 75 games in 1987-88 - not because his sparkling .881 save percentage trailed the league leader by .019 points. The league leader? Patrick Roy.

Fuhr won the Vezina, the Cup twice, a Canada Cup and almost the Hart in a 12 month span from 1987 to the spring of 1988. If he wasn't the best goalie in the world at that period of time then I'll be darned. No save percentage stat will change my mind on that one. But if stats are your thing, Fuhr did lead the NHL in shutouts in 1987-'88.

We've seen 6 games from Roy out of his prime and 17 games from Brodeur throughout his career where they happened to be playing best-on-best hockey without a Devils, Canadiens, or Avalanche jersey. Now, between the 1,276 games from Roy and the 1,313 games from Brodeur at the NHL level, I think we should have an even better idea as to what they were capable of as goaltenders, and until a goalie gets knocked out of the Stanley Cup Semifinals because he let in a shootout goal in Game One, my opinion of international tournaments is that they're a two-week long All-Star game where even Antero Niittymaki can be a star.

It isn't a huge impact on a player's career but it doesn't hurt when you have a sparkling international resume

Look at how they played - not with which medal they came home. That's how we evaluate individual performance all of the time here. Why would this be any different

Except for the fact that Brodeur did play as good as Roy did and also came home with a gold twice as a starter.