Patrick Roy -- Was he REALLY that good?

[BehindTheTimes]

I think you’re seriously underrating the significance of posting a .920-.930 in the firewagon era. It’s really hard to see that and think “propped up by team success”.

Aside from the fact Roy never posted a single season of .930 sv% and Hasek had done it 5 times. Obviously Roy ran very hot during a few playoff runs, but without a team capable of winning it's unlikely he wins the smythe. Hasek in 97-98 and 98-99 put up a .938 and .939 and was unquestionably the MVP of the Sabres and would have won the smythe both years if they were good enough to win. Hard to fault Hasek for not winning a cup despite putting up incredible numbers. The Smythes are great and all and I'm not trying to down play Roy's performance, he was my favorite player growing up a habs fan, but Hasek was a better goalie. Don't think it trumps 2 Hart's and 2 Lester B Pearson's, not to mention 6 vezina's to go along with some solid playoffs of his own and the 98 Olympics.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Aside from the fact Roy never posted a single season of .930 sv% and Hasek had done it 5 times.

Well yeah, .930 seasons were nonexistent between the mid-70s and mid-90s. That's the point. Roy had 3 playoff runs in the .920-.930 range at a time when that level of efficiency simply didn't happen. Those 3 runs are comparable to Hasek's high-.930s runs at his peak.

Obviously Roy ran very hot during a few playoff runs, but without a team capable of winning it's unlikely he wins the smythe. Hasek in 97-98 and 98-99 put up a .938 and .939 and was unquestionably the MVP of the Sabres and would have won the smythe both years if they were good enough to win. Hard to fault Hasek for not winning a cup despite putting up incredible numbers.

It's really hard to make this argument stick, when Roy dragged an 87-point team to the Cup.

That's not just the worst team to win the Cup in the modern era, but also worse than the '99 Sabres. And Roy was the hands-down Smythe winner who pulled it off.

The Smythes are great and all and I'm not trying to down play Roy's performance, he was my favorite player growing up a habs fan, but Hasek was a better goalie. Don't think it trumps 2 Hart's and 2 Lester B Pearson's, not to mention 6 vezina's to go along with some solid playoffs of his own and the 98 Olympics.

It's funny, because I come at this from the exact opposite angle. I prefer Hasek to Roy as a goalie. I actually didn't like Roy at all, his attitude just rubbed me the wrong way. But in terms of career, after spending a ton of time comparing them in the previous top-100 project, I had to give it up. Same thing at an earlier age when I realized that no matter how much more I liked Mario than Wayne, #99 simply wins the argument at the end of the day.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Well yeah, .930 seasons were nonexistent between the mid-70s and mid-90s. That's the point. Roy had 3 playoff runs in the .920-.930 range at a time when that level of efficiency simply didn't happen. Those 3 runs are comparable to Hasek's high-.930s runs at his peak.



It's really hard to make this argument stick, when Roy dragged an 87-point team to the Cup.

That's not just the worst team to win the Cup in the modern era, but also worse than the '99 Sabres. And Roy was the hands-down Smythe winner who pulled it off.



It's funny, because I come at this from the exact opposite angle. I prefer Hasek to Roy as a goalie. I actually didn't like Roy at all, his attitude just rubbed me the wrong way. But in terms of career, after spending a ton of time comparing them in the previous top-100 project, I had to give it up. Same thing at an earlier age when I realized that no matter how much more I liked Mario than Wayne, #99 simply wins the argument at the end of the day.

I'll have to read the views from the project members. I'm definitely open to changing my mind. It'll be hard because I remember them both very well and always thought hasek was the Wayne Gretzky of goaltending.

Thanks for this post tarheel.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I'll have to read the views from the project members. I'm definitely open to changing my mind. It'll be hard because I remember them both very well and always thought hasek was the Wayne Gretzky of goaltending.

Thanks for this post tarheel.

This is the meaty part of the argument: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

(it was part of the 2012 top goalies project, not the 2008 top-100 project, in which I wasn't even around to participate... I was obviously on drugs when I said that)

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I'll have to read the views from the project members. I'm definitely open to changing my mind. It'll be hard because I remember them both very well and always thought hasek was the Wayne Gretzky of goaltending.

Thanks for this post tarheel.

honest question: do you remember the colorado roy who overlapped with peak hasek, or do you also remember the peak late 80s roy that statistically destroyed his competition to a hasekian degree?

 

[cole von cole]

I'm not disputinghis playoff ability or his underrated regular season play, both which are true. My question is how does that get him ahead of Hasek. I never understood. Where can I find the discussion that has the majority ranking Roy number 1. I'd love to read it.

It may not put him ahead of Hasek for you, which is fine, I'm just trying to say that Roy DOES have a case for being the greatest goalie.

 

[Gurglesons]

It’s between Roy and Hasek.

Just like it usually is between Lemieux and Gretzky for best forward.

Everything in between the argument is hyperbole.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

honest question: do you remember the colorado roy who overlapped with peak hasek, or do you also remember the peak late 80s roy that statistically destroyed his competition to a hasekian degree?

I remember both versions of Roy, in fact, as a youngster, Roy was my favorite player. I often tried to emulate Roy, I've always been a Habs fan, but when he was traded to Colorado they instantly became my 2nd favorite team. I still feel like Hasek is being underrated here, his peak has a decisive edge for me and his international pedigree isn't given enough dues. When Hasek was dominating, he was also dominating goaltenders like Roy himself, albeit it wasn't a prime Roy anymore, but still better than any competition Roy was facing himself imo.

I went through most of the debate by the project members and I am still not convinced. Too much focus on small samples without eliminating the noise that results from those samples. Posters knocking Hasek for being sent down to the IHL in Chicago over Jimmy Waite without factoring in that he was the only one waiver eligible. Knocking him for quitting on his teams because he removed himself from games when he felt he wasn't 100% etc etc.

Looking at meaningless samples like what were his numbers when trailing in a series etc all designed to prop Roy up. Clutchness is overrated and basically non existent. This is like adding value to players in baseball with an inflated BA with RISP. It's interesting, but meaningless imo.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Not as good as Hasek.

 

[VanIslander]

I hated Roy.
I laughed at him getting pulled on MULTIPLE playoff moments.
I was glad to rid of him when he was shipped to Colorado.
I never wanted him to win.

He remains one of the three greatest goalies I've ever seen - on a grumpy day i may try to argue my childhood hero Dryden was better; i usually think Hasek the greatest, certainly the 'best'.

Roy was good enough to make one of his biggest HATERS think he's "only" top-3 all time!

If you think there are five better, I'd have to roll up my sleeves and jump into the fray (*sigh* on his side)!

 

[abo9]

I'm too young and have only seen highlights of Roy/Hasek... but my dad saw him play and told me in the playoffs he was 200% the goalie any team would have taken.

He has a great regular season record but I think his Conn Smythes (only player ever to have 3) and clutch play are what enters him in the conversation of "best goaltender ever". And I believe for goaltenders playoff success is so much more impactful than regular season success. If your goalie steals 1 game in rs, that's 2 points. If he steals 1 game in playoffs, that's 1/4 games won.

I wish I could have seen that era because I love watching goaltender duels and stealing games/series.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Patrick Roy was the Marlon Brando of goaltending.

Does Brando have the most academy awards? No. Did he have the best career of any actor? No. But he changed the way actors acted, and Roy changed the way goaltenders goaltend, and that's why he's the greatest ever.

 

[Morbo]

Yes. Yes he was.

 

[VanIslander]

Hasek was the Alfred Hitchcock of goalies.

He scared the heck out of everybody, but he did things so differently it's hard to compare him.

 

[Isignedupjustfothis]

Hasek was better than Roy, but Roy was better than Brodeur.

If Hasek was not robbed of that cup on the foot in the crease call then we would never even question if he was the best or not. Sad as that is, but future generations only have stats to look at.

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

Hasek was better than Roy, but Roy was better than Brodeur.

If Hasek was not robbed of that cup on the foot in the crease call then we would never even question if he was the best or not. Sad as that is, but future generations only have stats to look at.

It helps Hasek a lot more than Roy...

And even if Hasek would have won the Cup with the Sabres in 1999 and probably the Conn Smythe, I assume that he would never have been to Detroit because he would have won his Cup. The reason why he was traded to Detroit

It would still be 4 Cups > 1 and 3 Smythe > 1 in favor of Roy at the end so yes there would still be a debate between those two certainly.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Yes, he was really that good and is probably the 2nd best goalie of all time... after Hasek.

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

Yes, he was really that good and is probably the 2nd best goalie of all time... after Hasek.

LOL, I'd say more Hasek is the second best goalie of all time after Roy.

 

[Isignedupjustfothis]

It helps Hasek a lot more than Roy...

And even if Hasek would have won the Cup with the Sabres in 1999 and probably the Conn Smythe, I assume that he would never have been to Detroit because he would have won his Cup. The reason why he was traded to Detroit

It would still be 4 Cups > 1 and 3 Smythe > 1 in favor of Roy at the end so yes there would still be a debate between those two certainly.

Roy was a high pressure moment king.

If Haseks team could score 2 goals in a game he gave them the chance to win 2-1.

There has only been one goalie in history that has been the case.

So hardware aside Hasek is the best for me. The dominator nickname was well earned.

Put Hasek on those AVS teams and I doubt the AVS won less.

Put Roy on those BUF teams and cannot think the same imo.

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

Roy was a high pressure moment king.

If Haseks team could score 2 goals in a game he gave them the chance to win 2-1.

There has only been one goalie in history that has been the case.

So hardware aside Hasek is the best for me. The dominator nickname was well earned.

Put Hasek on those AVS teams and I doubt the AVS won less.

Put Roy on those BUF teams and cannot think the same imo.

Because Roy has always had great teams like the Avs right? You seem to forget 86 and especially 93 Habs. Roy would certainly have won one Cup at least with the Sabres, I'm sure. In the playoffs, no goalie was better than him when the stakes were at their highest.

And Hasek has never played in the worst place for a goalie, number one goalie for the Montreal Canadiens. The position with the most pressure in all the NHL.

 

[Isignedupjustfothis]

Because Roy has always had great teams like the Avs right? You seem to forget 86 and especially 93 Habs. Roy would certainly have won one Cup at least with the Sabres, I'm sure. In the playoffs, no goalie was better than him when the stakes were at their highest.

His rookie cup win was special. The 93 team was comparable to the BUF finals team. Ok..I will keep that in mind

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I hated Roy.
I laughed at him getting pulled on MULTIPLE playoff moments.
I was glad to rid of him when he was shipped to Colorado.
I never wanted him to win.

He remains one of the three greatest goalies I've ever seen - on a grumpy day i may try to argue my childhood hero Dryden was better; i usually think Hasek the greatest, certainly the 'best'.

Roy was good enough to make one of his biggest HATERS think he's "only" top-3 all time!

If you think there are five better, I'd have to roll up my sleeves and jump into the fray (*sigh* on his side)!

Oh, he's clear cut number 2 for me. I don't see an argument for 5 better than him either. I'm a biased Roy fan and I can't support him ahead of Hasek. The views from project members did nothing to make me change my mind, although I did enjoy the read.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Patrick Roy was the Marlon Brando of goaltending.

Does Brando have the most academy awards? No. Did he have the best career of any actor? No. But he changed the way actors acted, and Roy changed the way goaltenders goaltend, and that's why he's the greatest ever.

He certainly didn't change the way the game was played for Hasek. Hasek's style is almost impossible to repeat, that doesn't make him any less great in my eyes, that makes him even greater.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

It helps Hasek a lot more than Roy...

And even if Hasek would have won the Cup with the Sabres in 1999 and probably the Conn Smythe, I assume that he would never have been to Detroit because he would have won his Cup. The reason why he was traded to Detroit

It would still be 4 Cups > 1 and 3 Smythe > 1 in favor of Roy at the end so yes there would still be a debate between those two certainly.

Would be an interesting debate for sure, if only one players named was engraved on the cup, but it isn't.

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

Would be an interesting debate for sure, if only one players named was engraved on the cup, but it isn't.

Considering goalies play at the most important position similar to the quarterbacks in the NFL, then yes Cup wins are more impactful on goalies career/legacy than anyone else like Super Bowls are for QBs.