Patrick Kane vs Auston Matthews

[Montreal Shadow]

Team game.

Not a tennis match.

Yes, and Matthews is always invisible in Game 7. I 100% believe the Leafs could have won at least one more round by having Kane instead of Matthews, especially in those critical elimination games.

The Leafs weren't getting swept 0-4. They came very close to winning but just needed that gamebreaker to bury their opponents. Matthews was never that guy.

 

[gritdash60]

Kane has the upperhand right now, but Matthews has the chance to get it if Leafs management do good decisions (yea right hahah) or if he finishes his career in some other team.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Pretty easily as the regular season is more balanced for every player.

Teams advance in the playoffs not individual players and the way I tend to rate players is roughly 75,% regular season and 25,,% playoffs historically.


If you or others give more credence to playoffs than that the question I have is 2 fold.

First do you do that consistently for every comparison and 2 how do you account for say the 6 team league versus the 32 team league?

1) Your weight is off. The regular season exists to separate and organize teams for the playoffs, the point of playing professional sports is to win Championships. The regular season is for fan entertainment and to make money for players and the league. The real season starts in April.

2) Teams advance in the playoffs yes, but since Matthews entered the league the Leafs are 3rd in the league in total points over the last 8 seasons. Matthews isn't on an island out there dragging a plucky team to the post season every season. He's a superstar player on a good to very good team.

Teams advance in the playoffs, but Matthews cap % he takes up demands that he bears a proportional weight of responsibility to produce when the games matter the most and he routinely does not do this at an elite level. The team he is on suffers from his lackluster play and he plays a proportional part in why his team hasn't won more than a single game in the 2nd round.

3) I don't understand how a North American sports fan could possibly NOT give "credence to playoffs" but to answer your 2 questions...

-It's done consistently for every comparison of similar caliber players, yes. We're comparing two guys who could be potentially considered as the greatest american players of all time. We're not comparing Patrick Kane and Nick Abruzzese here.

This is a common argument and not as clever as people think it is. "Oh so Pat Maroon is a better player than Matthews then since he won 3 Cups!?" etc...It's intellectually lazy. You have to compare players based on the caliber of talent and effectiveness they've shown over their career. So comparing Kane's Stanley Cup successes and overall playoff resume is absolutely relevant if someone is going to suggest Matthews to be the greatest american player ever.

-Why on earth would we be comparing O6 players to the modern NHL with championships? Again, we're talking about Patrick Kane and Auston Matthews who are playing in a 30, 31, and 32 team league over their careers.

Team game.

Not a tennis match.

If Matthews was better his team would have better playoff results. He is a huge part of his team and his lack of effectiveness along with his high cap hit regularly weigh his team down in the playoffs. This is such a weak-minded mentality as well.

 

[I am not exposed]

Yes, and Matthews is always invisible in Game 7. I 100% believe the Leafs could have won at least one more round by having Kane instead of Matthews, especially in those critical elimination games.

The Leafs weren't getting swept 0-4. They came very close to winning but just needed that gamebreaker to bury their opponents. Matthews was never that guy.

The Leafs wouldn't even have made the playoffs with Kane instead of Matthews.

 

[Montreal Shadow]

The Leafs wouldn't even have made the playoffs with Kane instead of Matthews.

Not talking about current Kane. Prime Kane obviously.

 

[Faceboner]

Yeah I know. It’s just confusing that it happens regularly.

To be fair I assume most of hockey guys are a little like cavemen at times at least I am.

 

[Sky04]

The Leafs wouldn't even have made the playoffs with Kane instead of Matthews.

Yeah no shit he's 35, prime Kane shits on Matthews and doesn't choke in r1 every year. That's what happens when you take up a lot of cap space and don't know how to pass.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Team game.

Not a tennis match.

Kane has shown he can more or less win games on his own.

In 2015 with the Blackhawks facing certain elimination in the WCF Kane pretty much wills the Blackhawks to victory scoring a goal and 4 assists in the final two games.

Or in the 2014 WCF the Blackhawks with the Blackhawks down 3-1 in the series Kane scored 7 points in games 5 and 6 which included setting up the game winner in double OT.

Game 6 he scores the Hawks first goal and then in the 3rd within 5 mins sets up the game tying goal and then scores the go ahead goal.

Even in game 7 where they lost Kane gets two assists in the first 8 minutes of the game.

Matthews just can't raise his game when they get tougher, all the talent but no heart he is this generations Joe Thornton for now

 

[SnowblindNYR]

The one with three cups and who performed in the playoffs.

 

[Dead Coyote]

Considering we're talking about better player and not better legacy here, I do think Matthews is already close to, if not already a better player than Kane.

The Ross and Smythe are probably better than 2 Richards, but they both have a Hart and a Lindsay and it's possible Matthews will get another one of those this year. Obviously Kane has had way more playoff success but their point totals are pretty similar in ppg, just not so much in GP and success. Kane has hit over 100 points twice in his career, so has Matthews.

Matthews is much younger, and I think he's likely to have a better career than Kane statistically which I think is what matters. He's already 14th on the US goal scoring list. Individually I think he's a much better player than Kane is. People can talk about playoffs and the clutch factor and cups and intangibles but I'll take stats over that any day.

Still very possible that Kane is overall better, but I think the chance is low.

 

[Maplebeasts]

Yeah no shit he's 35, prime Kane shits on Matthews and doesn't choke in r1 every year. That's what happens when you take up a lot of cap space and don't know how to pass.

Prime Kane is the inferior player no matter how you want to slice it. Around the same overall productivity, significantly worse at scoring goals, plays wing and much, much worse defensively. The Hawks cups had just as much to do with prime Toews being a great two-way 1c and Duncan Keith. Prime Kane doesn't win us any more series unless we get Keith to come with him.

 

[Maplebeasts]

His reasoning is he's a fan of the Maple Leafs.

As opposed to a lot of posters here who are objective about anything Leafs? You can't call out Leaf fans for being homers and then ignore that there are also mouthbreathers on the other side of the debate who are biased in the other direction.

 

[KevinRedkey]

As opposed to a lot of posters here who are objective about anything Leafs? You can't call out Leaf fans for being homers and then ignore that there are also mouthbreathers on the other side of the debate who are biased in the other direction.

99% of those picking Matthews (here) are Leafs fans and/or Kane haters. The anti-Leafs bias is certainly a real thing, but it's nowhere near the same percentage.

Most Leafs fans would probably also pick Kane in this particular poll. They just happen to be less vocal than the homers.

 

[Maplebeasts]

99% of those picking Matthews (here) are Leafs fans and/or Kane haters. The anti-Leafs bias is certainly a real thing, but it's nowhere near the same percentage.

Most Leafs fans would probably also pick Kane in this particular poll. They just happen to be less vocal than the homers.

I mean you would have to seeing Kane is a no doubter hall of famer who has played for over twice as long. In 10 years the poll question gets much harder, especially if Matthews wins a single cup.

 

[Sky04]

Prime Kane is the inferior player no matter how you want to slice it. Around the same overall productivity, significantly worse at scoring goals, plays wing and much, much worse defensively. The Hawks cups had just as much to do with prime Toews being a great two-way 1c and Duncan Keith. Prime Kane doesn't win us any more series unless we get Keith to come with him.

*in a lower scoring era while not losing in the 1st round every year like Matthews the generational loser.

The Maple Leafs failures are because Matthews is such a 1 dimensional player and easy to shut down in the playoffs. Where does his goal scoring go in the playoffs?? A little physically and the guy disappears.

 

[Fataldogg]

Easily? Matthews has a better ppg up to this point in their careers, is better defensively, and plays a premium position. I won’t even discuss their goal scoring.

It’s fine if you think Kane will have a better career, but don’t act like it’s going to be “easy”.

When you compare what you just said with 3 Stanley Cups, a Conn Smythe, Patrick Kane's individual performances on an annual basis in the post season with 1 playoff win Matthews, for a lot of people it is a very easy decision.

I'm not saying that is entirely accurate, but Matthews only being able to lead his team past round 1 one once will leave a huge tarnish on his legacy.

 

[elmaco]

3 cups Kane ainec

 

[Fatass]

3 cups Kane ainec

Yup. Kane was a key piece in three Cups. Matthews isn’t close to Kane.

 

[Madap]

When you compare what you just said with 3 Stanley Cups, a Conn Smythe, Patrick Kane's individual performances on an annual basis in the post season with 1 playoff win Matthews, for a lot of people it is a very easy decision.

I'm not saying that is entirely accurate, but Matthews only being able to lead his team past round 1 one once will leave a huge tarnish on his legacy.

Sure, I don’t disagree that Matthews has been disappointing in the playoffs. I expect much more from him, but he’s also only played half of his career so far.

Since I wrote that comment, years ago, Matthews has only further separated himself from Kane regular season wise. Kane supporters only have playoffs at this point, which is also largely a team result. If the Leafs ever go on a good run or two with Matthews leading them, there is no argument for Kane anymore. Which is why I stand by my original comment that anyone who thinks this isn’t close between the two is absolutely just a Leaf hater. Completely out to lunch, really.

 

[McVespa99]

Okay but most people here saying that for AM to pass Kane all time he needs team success and at a certain point that doesn't matter does it?

Your previous post suggested otherwise and exactly how much weight do we give playoff performances compared to regular season?

I do it roughly 75/25 regular season/ playoffs.

Team success means little when rating a specific player. I go more 50/50 regular season and playoffs when judging. But Personal success. Not team. Gretzky could have played on mediocre teams, put up record numbers, huge numbers in the playoffs and he would still be the best player ever even if he never won a cup. The player does not build the team

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Prime Kane is the inferior player no matter how you want to slice it. Around the same overall productivity, significantly worse at scoring goals, plays wing and much, much worse defensively. The Hawks cups had just as much to do with prime Toews being a great two-way 1c and Duncan Keith. Prime Kane doesn't win us any more series unless we get Keith to come with him.

Prime Kane scored over 100 points in a season in a year where nobody else even scored 90. He has a Hart, Ross and Lindsay and still a higher points season than Matthews.

Matthews constantly gets to play with guys who pace for over 100 points and consistently comes up short he is the main reason for the Leafs playoff struggles because he cannot handle the much tougher playoff environment.

Leafs absolutely do much better in the playoffs the last 7-8 years or so with Patrick Kane

 

[wetcoast]

When you compare what you just said with 3 Stanley Cups, a Conn Smythe, Patrick Kane's individual performances on an annual basis in the post season with 1 playoff win Matthews, for a lot of people it is a very easy decision.

The thing is that if one breaks down actual play, ie possession stats the gap isn't that big between the 2 players, it's just that Kane had a much better supporting cast and better constructed teams for a deep dive.

All that being said Kane has definitely had the better individual playoff resume but some people are wrongly comparing teams not players here.

I'm not saying that is entirely accurate, but Matthews only being able to lead his team past round 1 one once will leave a huge tarnish on his legacy.

Sure but is that really fair as I ask who were the Leaf equivalents of Toews,Keith ect.......?

I get that Kane has been better it's just that the difference isn't nearly as great as some people are making it out to be.

 

[Sypher04]

Prime Kane scored over 100 points in a season in a year where nobody else even scored 90. He has a Hart, Ross and Lindsay and still a higher points season than Matthews.

Matthews constantly gets to play with guys who pace for over 100 points and consistently comes up short he is the main reason for the Leafs playoff struggles because he cannot handle the much tougher playoff environment.

Leafs absolutely do much better in the playoffs the last 7-8 years or so with Patrick Kane

What an utterly stupid comment.

 

[Sypher04]

*in a lower scoring era while not losing in the 1st round every year like Matthews the generational loser.

The Maple Leafs failures are because Matthews is such a 1 dimensional player and easy to shut down in the playoffs. Where does his goal scoring go in the playoffs?? A little physically and the guy disappears.

lol. Tell me you don’t watch Matthews play without telling me you don’t watch Matthews play

 

[CokenoPepsi]

What an utterly stupid comment.

A little hyperbole but there is alot of truth to it.

0 goals and 0 points in game 7 against Bruins.

0 goals and 0 points in game 7 against the Bruins.

0 goals and 0 points in game 5 against the Blue Jackets

0 goals and 1 assist in game 7 against the Canadiens (but this point was when it was 3-0 with under 2 minutes left)

0 goals, 1 assist in game 7 against the Lightning.

0 goals the entire series against the Panthers

0 goals 1 assist in game 7 against the Bruins.

He hasn't been good.. he is shaping up to be this generations Joe Thornton