Patrick Kane vs Auston Matthews

[Duke749]

I think people tend to ignore the defensive impact Matthews has had. All he needs is his health going forward in the playoffs and this comparison will favour Matthews in 3-5 seasons.

When you score 69 goals, pretty everything is ignored unless you’re watching him on a nightly basis.

 

[x Tame Impala]

I think people tend to ignore the defensive impact Matthews has had. All he needs is his health going forward in the playoffs and this comparison will favour Matthews in 3-5 seasons.

Again, whats your argument to support this? You’re just saying it in the thread but I haven’t seen any reasoning.

 

[wetcoast]

That is rather dismissive considering the post I replied to was indicating Kane's only accomplishments were postseason based (which you did again in third paragraph).

You are right it was a bit dismissive and I focused more on you post than the original one but it's still trivial in the sense that it doesn't provide context when evaluating e elitish players.

It would be like saying AM scores more goals than AM without providing the context of it being during AM's prime and Ovechkin's backend of his career.

I'm not sure why you think leading an entire decade in scoring isn't something worth noting, and in your eyes "trivia". It would seem to suggest regular season resume is closer than would appear if you only look at raw point totals (ignoring league scoring affects).

The thing is that Kane is a bit "lucky" in that Crosby, Ovi and Malkin are all aging or missing time and that the younger superstars started past the midway point it the decade.


Gary Unger is second in some metric behind Esposito over a decade period(going off memory it's goals) but without context it's hard to determine how impressive any ranking over a period of time is.

Of course even leading in a luckier period is still great but it's not an apples to apples comparison and thus my tribal comment.

Only Crosby and Malkin come in at higher PPG amongst anyone in the top 40 in decade scoring and they of course DID play in every season that decade, but were injured for portions while Kane stayed more healthy.

Exactly and we don't know exactly how to measure how impressive that 10 year block will look compared to AM's 10 year block in part to the other players involved and where they were at in their careers.

It's very possible that AM will have the better regular season overall resume when it's all said and done even if his strong metric and case is goals and 2 way play compared to points.

 

[wetcoast]

I think people tend to ignore the defensive impact Matthews has had. All he needs is his health going forward in the playoffs and this comparison will favour Matthews in 3-5 seasons.

Agree with the first part but the time period might be more 5 to 7 years though and it still needs to happen.

Again, whats your argument to support this? You’re just saying it in the thread but I haven’t seen any reasoning.

3-5 or 5-7 more years with good 2 way play and say some more too 3 goal scoring finishes and too 19-15 point finishes and some playoff success it starts to add up.

Unless one over inflates playoffs but like I said up thread are those people over inflating playoffs for all player comparisons?

 

[Goose]

If Matthews has a healthy career and doesn't win cups but puts up more 60+ goal seasons it'll be a question of whether you value Kane's part in his teams' accomplishments or Matthews ending up as one of the greatest goal scorers of all time. He could end up Top 5 or maybe even 3rd if he stays healthy and plays a while.

If Matthews wins one cup playing a role, it'll be hard not to give it to him, and if he wins two or more cups (just imagine with me here) it'd be a no-brainer Matthews.

If I had to bet I'd say Kane ends up on top at the end of the day, but there are a number of scenarios where Matthews does enough to displace him.

 

[Faceboner]

At the same individually:

Kane - 1 Calder, 1 Conn Smythe

Matthews - 1 Calder, 3 Richards, 1 Hart

You forgot his art Ross and Hart which was one of the more dominate campaigns undeniably nest player that year while Kane always kind of had a stacked team he was the one driving the offense on his line and the only notable players he played with were sharp and panarin otherwise it was Bolland, old Mike Richard's and bickell etc... also played all his prime in dead puck era 2.0

 

[Nocashstyle]

You forgot his art Ross and Hart which was one of the more dominate campaigns undeniably nest player that year while Kane always kind of had a stacked team he was the one driving the offense on his line and the only notable players he played with were sharp and panarin otherwise it was Bolland, old Mike Richard's and bickell etc... also played all his prime in dead puck era 2.0

My response was to a poster comparing their first 8 seasons. Kane did not have his Art Ross or Hart yet.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Agree with the first part but the time period might be more 5 to 7 years though and it still needs to happen.


3-5 or 5-7 more years with good 2 way play and say some more too 3 goal scoring finishes and too 19-15 point finishes and some playoff success it starts to add up.

Unless one over inflates playoffs but like I said up thread are those people over inflating playoffs for all player comparisons?

Over inflates playoffs??? The playoffs are GO-Time dude, it's when things matter the most. Competition is the toughest, the games are usually the most physical and tight. Teams have played each other 5-7 times in a row so they know each other well.

You're acting like it's a niche statistical category like overtime points or something. Both Kane and Matthews are elite point-producing forwards, some of the best of the best. The difference is that Kane also does it in the playoffs whereas Matthews sees his GPG go from .851 all the way down to .200. If you think that's cherry picking we can use his career GPG of .650 dropping down to .418 in the playoffs. He goes from being a 50-60 goal scorer in the regular season to a thirty goal scorer in the playoffs. The guy routinely doesn't elevate his game when things matter the most. That is NOT greatness. Kane did it time and time again in congruence with his regular season excellence.

Matthews has a long, long way to go.

 

[Faceboner]

My response was to a poster comparing their first 8 seasons. Kane did not have his Art Ross or Hart yet.

My bad but still Kane was not only a playoff performer in his first 8 years he was a major contributor in all their runs being always at least 2nd or 3rd best player being neck and neck with toews and keith when they got the smythe

 

[McVespa99]

Agree with the first part but the time period might be more 5 to 7 years though and it still needs to happen.


3-5 or 5-7 more years with good 2 way play and say some more too 3 goal scoring finishes and too 19-15 point finishes and some playoff success it starts to add up.

Unless one over inflates playoffs but like I said up thread are those people over inflating playoffs for all player comparisons?

How can one over inflate the most important hockey of the season.

 

[JoeGarelli]

any non leaf fans actually vote for Matthews? At this point in time, it seems pretty clear it's Kane.

Maybe Matthews will develop into a playoff performer, but 8 years says otherwise.. Early in Datsyuk's career people said he would never be a playoff guy, and he turned into one of the best..

 

[I am not exposed]

any non leaf fans actually vote for Matthews? At this point in time, it seems pretty clear it's Kane.

Maybe Matthews will develop into a playoff performer, but 8 years says otherwise.. Early in Datsyuk's career people said he would never be a playoff guy, and he turned into one of the best..

I did.

 

[wetcoast]

How can one over inflate the most important hockey of the season.

Pretty easily as the regular season is more balanced for every player.

Teams advance in the playoffs not individual players and the way I tend to rate players is roughly 75,% regular season and 25,,% playoffs historically.


If you or others give more credence to playoffs than that the question I have is 2 fold.

First do you do that consistently for every comparison and 2 how do you account for say the 6 team league versus the 32 team league?

 

[pcruz]

I think people here are putting way too much emphasis on the playoffs here and sure Kane has a definite edge but let's not pretend that the current Leafs the last 8 seasons would have had any more success with Kane to make a difference.

AM is the much much better goalscorer and actually brings something to the table defensively and we will see how he ages but he is only a little over 100 goals behind Kane right now and obviously will trail him in points for some time.

But I'm still betting that AM has a decent chance of being as good as Kane all time if one uses the usual parameters for judging players, the over emphasis on playoffs here is beyond extreme in mnay people's take's and I doubt they do that with every player.

Also the poll results are basically from after the 21 season and AM has the 60 and 69 goal season, A Hart and a Selke top 3 finish (even if one thinks that's generous to AM he is still miles better than Kane in terms of a 2 way game) and he has also been a bit better in the playoffs in the last 3 years as well.

Dummy


Don't you understand that players like Dan Marino are garbage compared to the greats like Russell Wilson?


It took Ray Bourque 19 years to finally be good in the league, everyone knows that!

 

[wetcoast]

I did.

Ya me too I'm a Canucks fan first and also a big overall hockey fan.

Dummy


Don't you understand that players like Dan Marino are garbage compared to the greats like Russell Wilson?


It took Ray Bourque 19 years to finally be good in the league, everyone knows that!

Exactly and if Ray Bourque finishes his career in Boston he obviously drops considerably all time too

 

[Gordon Lightfoot]

You forgot his art Ross and Hart which was one of the more dominate campaigns undeniably nest player that year while Kane always kind of had a stacked team he was the one driving the offense on his line and the only notable players he played with were sharp and panarin otherwise it was Bolland, old Mike Richard's and bickell etc... also played all his prime in dead puck era 2.0

Dominant. DOMINANT.

Why is that such a hard word for many on this board? You can dominate, and you can BE dominant.

 

[Faceboner]

Dominant. DOMINANT.

Why is that such a hard word for many on this board? You can dominate, and you can BE dominant.

Because it's hockey board on the internet not business email or college paper

 

[Gordon Lightfoot]

Because it's hockey board on the internet not business email or college paper

Yeah I know. It’s just confusing that it happens regularly.

 

[Clode]

I'll take the one who wins championships

 

[Malaka]

Hate to throw the same “bedard doesn’t have linemates” argument that I’m sure is nauseating for many but Kane has rarely had the caliber of players or a center for that matter throughout his career. Proper context is understanding he led the league with players like the ghost of Brad Richards & Kris Versteeg — Toews and Kane was truthfully the nuclear option and they weren’t ideal linemates

Patrick Kane - Fantasy Hockey Game Logs, Advanced Stats and more - Frozen Tools

Find out Patrick Kane's latest linemates, game logs, advanced stats, player cards, news and analysis from dobberhockey.com

frozenpool.dobbersports.com

 

[pcruz]

Hate to throw the same “bedard doesn’t have linemates” argument that I’m sure is nauseating for many but Kane has rarely had the caliber of players or a center for that matter throughout his career. Proper context is understanding he led the league with players like the ghost of Brad Richards & Kris Versteeg — Toews and Kane was truthfully the nuclear option and they weren’t ideal linemates

Patrick Kane - Fantasy Hockey Game Logs, Advanced Stats and more - Frozen Tools

Find out Patrick Kane's latest linemates, game logs, advanced stats, player cards, news and analysis from dobberhockey.com

frozenpool.dobbersports.com

It is true.

Panarin, Toews, Keith were all terrible players.

Big Buff was brutal

 

[McVespa99]

Pretty easily as the regular season is more balanced for every player.

Teams advance in the playoffs not individual players and the way I tend to rate players is roughly 75,% regular season and 25,,% playoffs historically.


If you or others give more credence to playoffs than that the question I have is 2 fold.

First do you do that consistently for every comparison and 2 how do you account for say the 6 team league versus the 32 team league?

I am not counting based on the teams performance in the playoffs. It is a team game. I am only judging based on the individual players production

 

[wetcoast]

I am not counting based on the teams performance in the playoffs. It is a team game. I am only judging based on the individual players production

Okay but most people here saying that for AM to pass Kane all time he needs team success and at a certain point that doesn't matter does it?

Your previous post suggested otherwise and exactly how much weight do we give playoff performances compared to regular season?

I do it roughly 75/25 regular season/ playoffs.

 

[Montreal Shadow]

Matthews is the better player.

Swap Kane for Matthews and do you think the Leafs are getting further with Kane in their lineup instead of Matthews!

Yes?

Kane isn’t losing 4 straight game 7 in a row.

 

[I am not exposed]

Yes?

Kane isn’t losing 4 straight game 7 in a row.

Team game.

Not a tennis match.