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Ovechkin Milestone Thread - Countdown to 894

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Beukeboom said:
Well i originally responded to a comment saying Ovie wouldn't need enforcers. I merely pointed out that he had Brashear and Erskine during the rougher years of his career, before the NHL got soft, AND that he definately would have needed them in the 80's and 90's even if he managed to win one fight once vs Svechnikov aka "the beast".
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Your argument is self defeating.

Ovechkin had Brashear and Erskine early in his career, but when did they have to fight Ovechkin's battles?

Very much never, despite Ovechkin being one of the most aggressive players in the league.
Why would AO have to fight much in the league that was far more accepting of big hits? The only answer would be - if he wanted so. And, just like in the 2000s, his management would most likely be against it.

And why on Earth would Ovechkin fight Probert or Twist? Especially 20 times a year (??). If you're a fan of the old NHL with goons and 20 hookings in a shift, you must also remember that there was a thing called 'a code'. Even a guy like Lindros, who was even bigger than Ovechkin, extremely dirty and loved attacking weaker players, didn't have to fight enforcers often. And I don't remember him getting his famous concussions in fights.

Maybe Ovechkin's team would need an enforcer. But it would be because the league meta was that they were needed, not because AO was in a need of protection.
 
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Acallabeth said:
Your argument is self defeating.

Ovechkin had Brashear and Erskine early in his career, but when did they have to fight Ovechkin's battles?

Very much never, despite Ovechkin being one of the most aggressive players in the league.
Why would AO have to fight much in the league that was far more accepting of big hits? The only answer would be - if he wanted so. And, just like in the 2000s, his management would most likely be against it.

And why on Earth would Ovechkin fight Probert or Twist? Especially 20 times a year (??). If you're a fan of the old NHL with goons and 20 hookings in a shift, you must also remember that there was a thing called 'a code'. Even a guy like Lindros, who was even bigger than Ovechkin, extremely dirty and loved attacking weaker players, didn't have to fight enforcers often. And I don't remember him getting his famous concussions in fights.

Maybe Ovechkin's team would need an enforcer. But it would be because the league meta was that they were needed, not because AO was in a need of protection.
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He would have needed them due to guys like Marchment and Samuelsson head hunting. Lindros is a horrible example, since he was targeted constantly, and that ended his career. And the 10-15 fights a year would mostly be against pests and other power forwards.

However this discussion has come to an end, and there might not be any common ground. Some Ovie fans seem to think he would have been an untouched war machine back then due to being untouched in the softest period the league has ever seen. It is what it is. Netiher Clark, Lindros, Nolan or Neely can rack up more than a single or so 80 game season, but I'm sure Ovie would have been different.
 
Beukeboom said:
He would have needed them due to guys like Marchment and Samuelsson head hunting. Lindros is a horrible example, since he was targeted constantly, and that ended his career. And the 10-15 fights a year would mostly be against pests and other power forwards.

However this discussion has come to an end, and there might not be any common ground. Some Ovie fans seem to think he would have been an untouched war machine back then due to being untouched in the softest period the league has ever seen. It is what it is. Netiher Clark, Lindros, Nolan or Neely can rack up more than a single or so 80 game season, but I'm sure Ovie would have been different.
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Again, he wouldn't have had to fight Probert or any of the heavyweights regularly as none of the star players who played his style did. And if you think Ovechkin hasn't been targeted during his 20 year career as one of the most physical players on earth, lmao. Tell Marc Savard or Sidney Crosby that there's no headhunting or cheapshots in the lockout era

You just throw out completely BS easily discreditable arguments post after post and pivot to the next thing like nothing lol
 
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8To34 said:
Again, he wouldn't have had to fight Probert or any of the heavyweights regularly as none of the star players who played his style did. And if you think Ovechkin hasn't been targeted during his 20 year career as one of the most physical players on earth, lmao. Tell Marc Savard or Sidney Crosby that there's no headhunting or cheapshots in the lockout era

You just throw out completely BS easily discreditable arguments post after post and pivot to the next thing like nothing lol
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How's your reading comprehension? "And the 10-15 fights a year would mostly be against pests and other power forwards." *lol*

Find a power forward from the 80's and 90's with several 80 game seasons, then get back to me.

And yet again, my comments were in response to someone saying Ovie wouldn't have needed enforcers back then because he's so tough and once beat up Svechnikov aged 19...

I'll break it down for you:
1. Power forwards HAD to fight back then. 10+ fights a year.
2. The reason most of those fights weren't against enforcers, was because their own team had enforcers
3. The headhunting back then was at a whole other level. There is simply no comparison. The Scott Stevens hits were legal mind you.
4. During the years of Ovie's career when the NHL was still a little rough, Caps had Brashear and Erskine in the line up. It wasn't for their point producing qualities...
 
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Beukeboom said:
How's your reading comprehension? "And the 10-15 fights a year would mostly be against pests and other power forwards." *lol*

Find a power forward from the 80's and 90's with several 80 game seasons, then get back to me.

And yet again, my comments were in response to someone saying Ovie wouldn't have needed enforcers back then because he's so tough and once beat up Svechnikov aged 19...

I'll break it down for you:
1. Power forwards HAD to fight back then. 10+ fights a year.
2. The reason most of those fights weren't against enforcers, was because their own team had enforcers
3. The headhunting back then was at a whole other level. There is simply no comparison. The Scott Stevens hits were legal mind you.
4. During the years of Ovie's career when the NHL was still a little rough, Caps had Brashear and Erskine in the line up. It wasn't for their point producing qualities...
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Power forwards had to fight?
I don't recall John LeClair fighting in the 1990s. Tim Kerr maybe had 2-3 fights a year on average. Kevin Stevens wasnt much of a fighter.
 
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Beukeboom said:
How's your reading comprehension? "And the 10-15 fights a year would mostly be against pests and other power forwards." *lol*

Find a power forward from the 80's and 90's with several 80 game seasons, then get back to me.

And yet again, my comments were in response to someone saying Ovie wouldn't have needed enforcers back then because he's so tough and once beat up Svechnikov aged 19...

I'll break it down for you:
1. Power forwards HAD to fight back then. 10+ fights a year.
2. The reason most of those fights weren't against enforcers, was because their own team had enforcers
3. The headhunting back then was at a whole other level. There is simply no comparison. The Scott Stevens hits were legal mind you.
4. During the years of Ovie's career when the NHL was still a little rough, Caps had Brashear and Erskine in the line up. It wasn't for their point producing qualities...
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This is just nonsense. There is no reason that OV would have to fight 15 times a year. I am an old time who grew up with 1980's hockey and some the old timers really have some distorted memories of hockey back then.

I'm sure he'd have to fight a time or two but a star like him would have at least a couple of other guys on his team that would do almost all of the fighting for him. Just like any other star back in those days. Plus, he'd be one of the biggest guys in the league.

OV, more than any other star this century, other that Tom Wilson, would be right at home playing 1980's hockey.

Crosby on the other hand........
 
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chi777 said:
This is just nonsense. There is no reason that OV would have to fight 15 times a year. I am an old time who grew up with 1980's hockey and some the old timers really have some distorted memories of hockey back then.

I'm sure he'd have to fight a time or two but a star like him would have at least a couple of other guys on his team that would do almost all of the fighting for him. Just like any other star back in those days. Plus, he'd be one of the biggest guys in the league.

OV, more than any other star this century, other that Tom Wilson, would be right at home playing 1980's hockey.

Crosby on the other hand........
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This thread has been hijacked by this pointless discussion, but here we go...

The highlighted is exactly what I've been saying several post in a row. So not sure why I need my own words repeated back at me? Someone said Ovie wouldn't need enforcers back then because he's so tough. That is simply not true.

I might have exaggerated with the amounts of fights. He of course did not have to be a Neely/Clark/Tocchet sort of power forward. But I'd still argue his style of play would have led to a few fights per year, which is more than his 3 fights in 20 years (in which he got his ass handed to him in two of those, and beat a 19 year old non fighter in the third).
 
Beukeboom said:
Someone said Ovie wouldn't need enforcers back then because he's so tough. That is simply not true.
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The comparison was to Gretzky who had enforcers skating on his own line to make sure he is given a special treatment by the opponents. Ovechkin in the 1980s would not have needed this type of protection.
Having an enforcer on the team is not the same as having a guy whose designated role is to protect you personally. Brashear and Erskine on Caps did not look after Ovechkin the way McSorley was looking after Gretzky. They were stepping up for anyone on the Caps roster, including rookie Backstrom, aging Fedorov, skinny Semin. Protecting Ovechkin was probably the lesser of their problems - just like protecting Messier was not really McSorley's thing. I am sure McSorley would and did fight someone who was especially mean to Messier when McSorley was an Oiler. But folks had reasons not be too mean to Messier other than the fear of McSorley beating them.
 
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Zuluss said:
The comparison was to Gretzky who had enforcers skating on his own line to make sure he is given a special treatment by the opponents. Ovechkin in the 1980s would not have needed this type of protection.
Having an enforcer on the team is not the same as having a guy whose designated role is to protect you personally. Brashear and Erskine on Caps did not look after Ovechkin the way McSorley was looking after Gretzky. They were stepping up for anyone on the Caps roster, including rookie Backstrom, aging Fedorov, skinny Semin. Protecting Ovechkin was probably the lesser of their problems - just like protecting Messier was not really McSorley's thing. I am sure McSorley would and did fight someone who was especially mean to Messier when McSorley was an Oiler. But folks had reasons not be too mean to Messier other than the fear of McSorley beating them.
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Fair points on a topic that has gone sideways but I'd point out that Semenko and McSorely hardly skated with Gretzky all that much as sometime is suggested either not that any of this really even matters.

A 6'3" 240ish lb Ovechkin in the 80s wouldn't need protection just like Gordie Howe didn't need protection.
 
Beukeboom said:
How's your reading comprehension? "And the 10-15 fights a year would mostly be against pests and other power forwards." *lol*

Find a power forward from the 80's and 90's with several 80 game seasons, then get back to me.

And yet again, my comments were in response to someone saying Ovie wouldn't have needed enforcers back then because he's so tough and once beat up Svechnikov aged 19...

I'll break it down for you:
1. Power forwards HAD to fight back then. 10+ fights a year.
2. The reason most of those fights weren't against enforcers, was because their own team had enforcers
3. The headhunting back then was at a whole other level. There is simply no comparison. The Scott Stevens hits were legal mind you.
4. During the years of Ovie's career when the NHL was still a little rough, Caps had Brashear and Erskine in the line up. It wasn't for their point producing qualities...
Click to expand...
You should have admitted you were wrong about the stats padding being a thing of OV's compared to Gretzky when evidence was shown to the contrary.

Anyways, let's go OV and Caps!
 
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Weird stat tonight as he ends up minus 3 but the team wins by 3. The worst Sens player was only minus 2 (Stuzzle and Giroux). There has to be a category for this with the way stats are compiled for every little thing.
 
Hippasus said:
You should have admitted you were wrong about the stats padding being a thing of OV's compared to Gretzky when evidence was shown to the contrary.

Anyways, let's go OV and Caps!
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Well I said he stat pads now, and last season. That's only two out of 19 seasons. Maybe it's just a feeling. Has he ever scored as many empty netters as last season?
 
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