Ovechkin Milestone Thread - Countdown to 894 (892 and counting)

[WarriorofTime]

He also took nearly 2000 fewer shots.

League wide save percentage was significantly lower then so that's kind of a "well duh". Ovechkin pretty comfortably adds about 250-300 more goals off his SOG against that era's goaltending when you look at the shooting/save percentages.

 

[pezpunk]

He also took nearly 2000 fewer shots.

Of all the silly nonsense ovi-haters like to bring up, this is the one i understand the least. Taking fewer shots does not make someone a better player. Just pure logical failure.

 

[pezpunk]

I just cant stand adjusted stats. Edmontons 4 Stanley cups are 2.67 cup now, era adjusted? its just endless debates.

OnT: Boston seems to be in a slump, 891 and maybe 892 coming tonight!

nobody's era-adjusting cups, because that makes zero sense. There is one cup given out each year.

They're era-adjusting goals because it makes absolute perfect sense if you're interested in comparing apples to apples. In Gretzky's prime, teams were scoring WAY more goals than during Ovechkin's prime. That obviously, objectively matters, and we can calculate how much it matters.

logic is really hard for some people.

 

[Video Nasty]

League wide save percentage was significantly lower then so that's kind of a "well duh". Ovechkin pretty comfortably adds about 250-300 more goals off his SOG against that era's goaltending when you look at the shooting/save percentages.

Why does everyone treat Gretzky like he’s some average player when dogging every era other than the one Ovechkin (and by extension Crosby) played in?

 

[Video Nasty]

Of all the silly nonsense ovi-haters like to bring up, this is the one i understand the least. Taking fewer shots does not make someone a better player. Just pure logical failure.

Because it’s pretty clear that Gretzky would have a few hundred goals more if he wasn’t concerned with making the absolute right play shift after shift or if he decided to launch an additional 150 shots per season. In Gretzky’s case, yes, he actually is the better player.

I’ve praised Ovechkin plenty. Just because I don’t trip over myself to only praise doesn’t make me a hater.

Cheatcode. You have a puck behind the net - prepare to get a hit. But not for Gretzky. He could sleep there with the puck. It's not skill it's the fakest record ever.


Suter was the only one who tried to stop this nonsense, but it was in Canada cup. In NHL Gretzky was untouchable:

It’s sad you take such obvious glee in Gretzky being brought down closer to the mere mortals.

But sure, I’m the weirdo in this thread.

 

[qcal1427]

nobody's era-adjusting cups, because that makes zero sense. There is one cup given out each year.

They're era-adjusting goals because it makes absolute perfect sense if you're interested in comparing apples to apples. In Gretzky's prime, teams were scoring WAY more goals than during Ovechkin's prime. That obviously, objectively matters, and we can calculate how much it matters.

logic is really hard for some people.

I mean in all honesty you totally can era-adjust cups. The less teams are in the league (and especially the less that are in the playoffs), the easier it is to win a cup.

 

[Greatzsky 99]

nobody's era-adjusting cups, because that makes zero sense. There is one cup given out each year.

They're era-adjusting goals because it makes absolute perfect sense if you're interested in comparing apples to apples. In Gretzky's prime, teams were scoring WAY more goals than during Ovechkin's prime. That obviously, objectively matters, and we can calculate how much it matters.

logic is really hard for some people.

That was a stupid and illogical respons, you go figure out why.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Why does everyone treat Gretzky like he’s some average player when dogging every era other than the one Ovechkin (and by extension Crosby) played in?

Read what I said again and determine where I called Gretzky an average player.

 

[Video Nasty]

Read what I said again and determine where I called Gretzky an average player.

At times, it’s implied. Era adjusted stats literally exist because Gretzky put up video game numbers and there’s a need to try and make sense of what he did, while trying to lessen his dominance. In other words, let’s try and handicap Gretzky by treating him like he’s everyone else,

 

[WarriorofTime]

At times, it’s implied. Era adjusted stats literally exist because Gretzky put up video game numbers and there’s a need to try and make sense of what he did, while trying to lessen his dominance. In other words, let’s try and handicap Gretzky by treating him like he’s everyone else,

Pointing out differences in league wide save percentage in no ways means Gretzky is average.

 

[cupface52]

Because it’s pretty clear that Gretzky would have a few hundred goals more if he wasn’t concerned with making the absolute right play shift after shift or if he decided to launch an additional 150 shots per season. In Gretzky’s case, yes, he actually is the better player.

I’ve praised Ovechkin plenty. Just because I don’t trip over myself to only praise doesn’t make me a hater.



It’s sad you take such obvious glee in Gretzky being brought down closer to the mere mortals.

But sure, I’m the weirdo in this thread.

Or Gretzky was able to score all those goals because he was able to, and did make all the right plays. He starts passing less, makes less plays, he has less shooting room resulting in less goals. It's not clear in the slightest that he would have more goals if he wasn't such a good playmaker.

Because not a single person is saying Ovechkin is a better hockey player than Gretzky. You're creating arguments for the sake of arguing with no one, just to say gretzky is better than Ovechkin.

This thread is about Ovechkin breaking arguably the most important NHL record(equivalent to the home runs record). You and a few others solely come here just to say, but, but Gretzky is better. It's completely irrelevant to the goal record.

 

[filinski77]

That should clue you in on how suspect adjusted stats are more than anything really.

Doesn’t it fail a simple sniff test and seem odd that the numbers are trying to tell us that Gretzky was closer to Selanne, Iginla, and Crosby, three players who only combined for just one goal scoring title more than Gretzky himself, who also owned the overall record until Ovechkin breaks it, led the league in goals 5 times in 6 years only interrupted by the season he decided he wanted to average 2 assists per game instead, while having the two highest individual seasons and four of the top 10?

It's probably because Gretzky IS closer to Selanne in goal scoring than he is to Ovechkin.

Note that I didn't need to even sort Ovechkin's goal finishes because he is the king of consistency. Outside of ONE season where a 38 year old Ovechkin finished 36th in goals, Ovechkin has never finished outside of the top-15 in goals. That is insane.

Gretzky and Selanne have relatively similar finishes. Both have 5x top-3 finishes (Gretzky of course with a higher peak). Gretzky beats him in the middle, and Selanne has a better end.

I still have Gretzky higher than Selanne.

Gretzky's issue is that he had a super high peak, and then fell off significantly. If you look at raw goals, you'd think Ovi and Gretzky were close. But when you look at the complete opposite quality of their second half of their careers, then you can see why the adjusted goals tell a much more accurate story.

 

[Video Nasty]

It's probably because Gretzky IS closer to Selanne in goal scoring than he is to Ovechkin.

Note that I didn't need to even sort Ovechkin's goal finishes because he is the king of consistency. Outside of ONE season where a 38 year old Ovechkin finished 36th in goals, Ovechkin has never finished outside of the top-15 in goals. That is insane.

Gretzky and Selanne have relatively similar finishes. Both have 5x top-3 finishes (Gretzky of course with a higher peak). Gretzky beats him in the middle, and Selanne has a better end.

I still have Gretzky higher than Selanne.

View attachment 1003890

Gretzky's issue is that he had a super high peak, and then fell off significantly. If you look at raw goals, you'd think Ovi and Gretzky were close. But when you look at the complete opposite quality of their second half of their careers, then you can see why the adjusted goals tell a much more accurate story.

View attachment 1003898

Or one player suffering injuries due goon tactics and also nearly retiring early over the other tells a more real story than this perceived notion that Gretzky simply couldn’t hang in the back half of his career.

Interesting how much talk there is about protection for Gretzky, yet not a peep about how well protected all stars are today (different days, different arguments for some of the same people), even though the NHL still does an overall poor job at it and begins to let more things slide after a handful of good years.

 

[BallardEra]

They're era-adjusting goals because it makes absolute perfect sense if you're interested in comparing apples to apples. In Gretzky's prime, teams were scoring WAY more goals than during Ovechkin's prime. That obviously, objectively matters, and we can calculate how much it matters.

Ovechkin won 4 Rockets as the lone 50 goal scorer in those seasons. He won a 5th Rocket when only he and Draisaitl scored 50 in that season.

He also won a 6th Rocket with a 49 goal season.

 

[Ghost of Murph]

Was eagerly waiting for the population living under bridges to emerge in this thread. Glad they didn't disappoint.

 

[BallardEra]

Gretzky's issue is that he had a super high peak, and then fell off significantly. If you look at raw goals, you'd think Ovi and Gretzky were close. But when you look at the complete opposite quality of their second half of their careers, then you can see why the adjusted goals tell a much more accurate story.

Gretzky had 706 goals before the age of 30 and only 188 goals from 30 years old until he retired at 38.

 

[ottawa]

Thinking Ovi is done after this year if he breaks the record, probs back to SKA

 

[Firsov99]

Thinking Ovi is done after this year if he breaks the record, probs back to SKA

And stops just short of 900 with one year left on the contract? No way!

P.S. Dynamo Moscow, not SKA.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I’ll edit that. Unfortunately it only helps my post look better since I omitted Gretzky’s 5th occurrence.

There were 110 fifty goal seasons during Gretzky’s first 15 seasons.

There were 22 fifty goal seasons during Ovechkin’s first 15 seasons.

 

[TheLegend27]

Thinking Ovi is done after this year if he breaks the record, probs back to SKA

He still has another year at 9.5. I think he plays out that year, adds to the record for good measure, then leaves as a free agent.

 

[BallardEra]

Thinking Ovi is done after this year if he breaks the record, probs back to SKA

Nope.

 

[BallardEra]

A dinner invitation from none other than Alex Ovechkin is how BC’s Ryan Leonard was welcomed to the Capitals - The Boston Globe

He met Ovechkin and some other new teammates for sushi shortly after they landed in Boston.

www.bostonglobe.com

 

[Hockey Outsider]

It's probably because Gretzky IS closer to Selanne in goal scoring than he is to Ovechkin.

Note that I didn't need to even sort Ovechkin's goal finishes because he is the king of consistency. Outside of ONE season where a 38 year old Ovechkin finished 36th in goals, Ovechkin has never finished outside of the top-15 in goals. That is insane.

Gretzky and Selanne have relatively similar finishes. Both have 5x top-3 finishes (Gretzky of course with a higher peak). Gretzky beats him in the middle, and Selanne has a better end.

I still have Gretzky higher than Selanne.

View attachment 1003890

Gretzky's issue is that he had a super high peak, and then fell off significantly. If you look at raw goals, you'd think Ovi and Gretzky were close. But when you look at the complete opposite quality of their second half of their careers, then you can see why the adjusted goals tell a much more accurate story.

View attachment 1003898

In the History forum, the VsX method is used as an estimate of era-adjusted stats. This post has the details.

TABLE 7 - CAREER TOTAL, GOALS (last updated: 2024)

Gordie Howe	1,181
Alex Ovechkin	936
Maurice Richard	863
Bobby Hull	829
Jaromir Jagr	821
Wayne Gretzky	784
Phil Esposito	775
Brett Hull	733
Jean Beliveau	726
Teemu Selanne	718

Ovechkin is going to end this season at approximately 980 adjusted goals. He's already well ahead of Gretzky. (For what it's worth, Ovechkin is probably going to rank 5th all-time in adjusted points, after the end of this season).

 

[filinski77]

In the History forum, the VsX method is used as an estimate of era-adjusted stats. This post has the details.

TABLE 7 - CAREER TOTAL, GOALS (last updated: 2024)

Gordie Howe	1,181
Alex Ovechkin	936
Maurice Richard	863
Bobby Hull	829
Jaromir Jagr	821
Wayne Gretzky	784
Phil Esposito	775
Brett Hull	733
Jean Beliveau	726
Teemu Selanne	718

Ovechkin is going to end this season at approximately 980 adjusted goals. He's already well ahead of Gretzky. (For what it's worth, Ovechkin is probably going to rank 5th all-time in adjusted points, after the end of this season).

Exactly.

You can look at all sorts of adjusted metrics.
-> Hockey Reference adjusted stats
-> VsX
-> Performance relative to peers (ignores scoring levels completely)

They might all produce slightly different results, but they all definitely show that adjusted vs. raw are very very different.

 

[gtrower]

In the History forum, the VsX method is used as an estimate of era-adjusted stats. This post has the details.

TABLE 7 - CAREER TOTAL, GOALS (last updated: 2024)

Gordie Howe	1,181
Alex Ovechkin	936
Maurice Richard	863
Bobby Hull	829
Jaromir Jagr	821
Wayne Gretzky	784
Phil Esposito	775
Brett Hull	733
Jean Beliveau	726
Teemu Selanne	718

Ovechkin is going to end this season at approximately 980 adjusted goals. He's already well ahead of Gretzky. (For what it's worth, Ovechkin is probably going to rank 5th all-time in adjusted points, after the end of this season).

I’d be interested to see this list for all time primary points.